Middle Eastern weapons used by Europeans?

[Pixel Pirate]

This question came to my mind today as I am currently trying to create a character for myself. I don't mind straying from the "historical path" a little bit, but I'd like to keep it as realistic as possible. So with this in mind, do you suppose European pyrates might have come across and used middle eastern weapons such as the scimitar or some kind of short sword? I'm creating an Irish character, as I am decent at an Irish accent and find it to be very fun (the ladies love it, especially my own lady)...I also have a rather small budget right now and am trying to build up my kit slowly, piece by piece, for an October Ren-Faire.

[William Brand]

I'm a huge fan of the Middle East and the Ottoman regions of the period, so I understand your wish to add, but there's a good rule of thumb that's been repeated here many times over the years. Don't make the rare common or the common rare. Or in other words, when in doubt leave it out.

Common sailors are limited to space when serving aboard any ship and tend to use the weapons supplied to them by those they serve, be they navy or pirates. Did they keep and even use small knives and weapons from their distant travels? Yes, but this is rare as a rule because of space, ship's rules regarding personal weapons and the pragmatism of training. If you grew up using Irish weapons with the training that comes with such weapons, transitioning to Scimitar is difficult to explain from a pragmatic standpoint. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but we tend to use what we know. Think computers. If you grew up on PC and captured a Mac, you're more likely to sell the Mac and buy more PC stuff. Yeah, stupid example.

That said, I've actually handled a few period weapons that came from the Middle East and Far East that were captured by Scottish and English sailors. These have survived because they were kept as trophies instead of working weapons.

There is also evidence of Middle Eastern weaponry in art from the period, but these tend towards dramatic portraits and all the frippery that comes with a good pose, not examples of the day to day working sailor.

I carry an Arabic Kard myself, but this is as much a story telling tool as a weapon, and I can justify it because it's small, it has a considerable narrative history behind it and I've been a Captain and a Quartermaster more than once (so my character was alllowed a little more elbow room than the average sailor for storing trophies and personal artifacts). I have considered flaunting more outlandish weapons like a yatagan sword, shamshir or a tulwar, but my character is too removed from that period of his life to explain why he wouldn't now be using a simple boarding cutlass and a good musket.

In the end, I lean towards a good 'reason' for what I use and try to avoid the 'it looks cool' factor, though the Kard looks cool. I was weak.

As a sailor and an Irishman, you're more likely to carry a 'stick' for travel and kit, personal protection and tradition, so I'd first recommend a Shillelagh made of blackthorn. Nothing says 'Irish' like a good bludgeoning, stick-fighting, Shillelagh

[Pixel Pirate]

Thank you for the reply, William! Very informative! We are both on the same page then, regarding foreign weapons as trophies instead of battle-ready items. The reason I brought up this question was because, regarding my character, I was hoping to create a rather "salty figure". One who's been around the seven seas and has many a tale to tell. However, I'm still in the brainstorming section and am actually drawing what I want my character to look like (give or take a few items). I may be coming at this at a more "dungeons and dragons" type view, but it helps me get a sense of what I could add, or take away from my character. No rolling for hit points, I promise!

Also the shillelagh is a good idea.

[William Brand]

Variety is good. Especially the small stuff. Sailors are crazy superstitious. You can sometimes justify a thing because that thing happened to be in your pocket or around your neck that one time that you were saved from that one thing at that crucial moment that one time you were almost killed. This could be a coin of no particular value. It could be a broken bit of pottery or a key that doesn't go to anything. Sailors keep weird junk, just like we all do.

And get a knife. I can't recommend a good sailor's knife enough. I started a whole thread to rant about it, so I really can't recommend it enough. KNIFE.

Annnnnd...while I'm rambling, you said you wanted to be a 'salty figure'. If you really want to look like a well traveled, been to hell and back, seen the edge of the world, had a scrape or two, escaped the noose, sailor. Weather the the hell out of your kit. Abuse your shirts with dirt, pine tar, oil, food grease, and everything else. Pull out a few threads. Worry the seams and the elbows of your shirts. Do yard work in them for a month.

[Wicked Jim]

that's a VERY impressive collection of shillelaghs...fantastic advice............pixel, my character is an irishman as well.

[Pixel Pirate]

Variety is good. Especially the small stuff. Sailors are crazy superstitious. You can sometimes justify a thing because that thing happened to be in your pocket or around your neck that one time that you were saved from that one thing at that crucial moment that one time you were almost killed. This could be a coin of no particular value. It could be a broken bit of pottery or a key that doesn't go to anything. Sailors keep weird junk, just like we all do.

And get a knife. I can't recommend a good sailor's knife enough. I started a whole thread to rant about it, so I really can't recommend it enough. KNIFE.

Annnnnd...while I'm rambling, you said you wanted to be a 'salty figure'. If you really want to look like a well traveled, been to hell and back, seen the edge of the world, had a scrape or two, escaped the noose, sailor. Weather the the hell out of your kit. Abuse your shirts with dirt, pine tar, oil, food grease, and everything else. Pull out a few threads. Worry the seams and the elbows of your shirts. Do yard work in them for a month.

aye, a knife and a good pair o' pants was probably gonna be my next purchase. I already have a shirt and I ordered a blank felt hat today, along with a tin whistle!

[Pixel Pirate]

that's a VERY impressive collection of shillelaghs...fantastic advice............pixel, my character is an irishman as well.

Another Irishman! Right on! I used to be a part of a Civil War unit comprised (historically) of Irishmen!

[Wicked Jim]

i just dropped $200 on pants, socks, and tricorn...getting to be an expensive hobby....put me order in today fer a new shirt (authentic handmade), hoping to buy black powder flintlock soon-ish. NOT bragging, just mind boggled.

[Pixel Pirate]

mmmm...black powder flintlocks......Knife first, gun second.

[Jas. Hook]

i just dropped $200 on pants, socks, and tricorn...getting to be an expensive hobby....put me order in today fer a new shirt (authentic handmade), hoping to buy black powder flintlock soon-ish. NOT bragging, just mind boggled.

Amen to that, Brother Jim!

I'd need to overhaul a few prizes for a firelock and frock coat.

Jas. Hook

[Wicked Jim]

Thanx fer the understanding Jas. Hook. you sir, have honor amongst thieves.

[Jib]

What about those pirates (or pirate hunters like Kidd) who sailed off the eastern coast of Africa attempting to capture Mogul ships making the haj to Mecca? Might they take a Middle Eastern weapon or two (how about those lovely pearl covered muskets)??

[Jas. Hook]

Jib -

Possibly, bit I would think that any ornate treasures would be broken up and spoils shared out amongst the crew rather than being saved by any 'collector' in the ship. A rather plain and unusual curved dagger may have made it into personal possession as part of the split but anything exotic with precious metals or gems... I would doubt it.

Jas. Hook

[William Brand]

I'm with Hook on this. If you have a 'lovely' weapon it's more practical to sell it to keep a crew paid and a ship out of drydock. Weapons are practical first, second and third and costly, bejeweled weapons tend to be ornaments of the wealthy. However, there is a higher percentage of 'decorative' muskets, pistols and blade weapons in the Middle East where shell inlay and wire inlay are prevalent. Brass wire and shell are not costly additions and they a very traditional in the Middle East. Middle and Far Eastern weapons of the period also had prevailing details in pierced silver and brass. These are considered common to the area. It's best to think of these weapons as 'ornate', but not costly.

In the case of this example, the Damascus steel in the fittings and barrel are worth more than the cheap brass and mother of pearl inlay.

Another example of pierced brass fittings.

Jewels, pearls and gold become another matter entirely and pirates would probably sell these. Gold and jewels equates directly to rum and women.

[William Brand]

I covet this 18th century Ottoman piece.

[Wicked Jim]

this is truly a piece worthy of admiration...and want!

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I know that many pirates who sailed there got many exotic goods as loot certainly weapons too...

Foxe can know better he has after all wrote book of Henry Every.....

[Pixel Pirate]

This thread is making me drool with envy. Please excuse me.

[William Brand]

A good knife and one that a sailor was likely to keep for a tool as much as a trophy is a kard. An Arabic kard has a simple design. It's generally made with bone or wood handles and it it is very similar to some English styles of the same period. The bolster, pins and materials are not so rare or strange that a European wouldn't find it familiar, because there are trade knives of the period that are similar in shape and size. I would recommend a shorted one with simple fittings.

[William Brand]

This thread is making me drool with envy. Please excuse me.

You're excused. Having lived in the Middle East, I can tell you that a market there is a thing not to be missed. The Arabic Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem alone is one of my favorite places in the world. You can still buy hand made backgammon games and bottles blown from the same blue glass they've been using for 4,000 years.

Here's another kard.

[Pixel Pirate]

Totally jealous. Any recommendations of where I can pick up such a blade? I've checked out KultOfAthena, but that's about it.

[William Brand]

Totally jealous. Any recommendations of where I can pick up such a blade? I've checked out KultOfAthena, but that's about it.

If you find something you like, get as many images of it as you can and bid it out. check your private messages.

[Pixel Pirate]

Bid it out?....are you saying there's some to be had on EvilBay?

[William Brand]

No, I mean find a style with good documentation and give it to a true knifemaker and have them bid out a cost to make a one of a kind piece. Any knifemaker worth his/her salt will take your design and replicate or build off a design according to your instructions. You can get a one of a kind piece, handmade, with the materials that you choose. This prevents you from wearing a piece that anyone else might be carrying. It allows you to add personal touches. You get a better made knife than you might through a cheaper replica company. You also get a knife that will take abuse and can be used without fear of damages to the blade.

[Fox]

What about those pirates (or pirate hunters like Kidd) who sailed off the eastern coast of Africa attempting to capture Mogul ships making the haj to Mecca? Might they take a Middle Eastern weapon or two (how about those lovely pearl covered muskets)??

Tricky. It's quite possible I suppose, but I've never run across an example of such.

In terms of bulk to value ratio I'd imagine that ornate guns were probably fairly low value when compared to gold and jewels, or even to things like spices and silk.

FWIW, Henry Every and his company had so many surplus weapons on board that they used them to trade for provisions on several occasions during their cruise.