Knife throwing for combat

[Daniel]

Hi, I don't wander into this part of the forum much. How y'all doing?

Anyway, we've all seen movies where a person is killed, or almost killed, by a thrown knife. There's at least one pirate movie where this happens, Swashbuckler, where the black pirate is an expert at knife throwing. He's also one of the few knife throwers in movies that's a hero; knife throwing seems to have been something of a bad boy's sport in movies ever since Rupert of Hentzau in The Prisoner of Zenda.

However, in all my searches I have been able to find two (2) nonfiction reports of a human being killed by a thrown knife. Ever.

The first appears to be legitimate: the New York Times reported that on March 25, 1898, "Jew Gus" Eckhart killed his live-in girlfriend "English Mary" Ward with a hurled knife from a range of eight feet at New York's Beehive Saloon. The knife blade was only two and a half inches long. He threw it from his open hand, hit Ward in the left breast and cut an artery. She was dead in five minutes. It was the opinion of showman knife throwers that Eckhart, who had no training, could not have fatally struck Ward again in a thousand tries.

The second report is from Harry McEvoy's Knife & Tomahawk Throwing: The Art of the Experts, p. 93. McEvoy claims that Sergeant Skeeter Vaughan killed a German sentry during World War II with a thrown 16-inch bayonet from a range of 87 feet in the dark that penetrated the base of the sentry's skull. My response, frankly, is: Bullsh*t. Skeeter Vaughan was a real man, and had a real career in the movies, but I don't believe he ever killed a man that way. McEvoy does not cite to any source for this absurd story, and I see no reason to believe that Vaughan himself had any hand in writing the book. Such an amazing feat should have led to a citation for distinguished service, and without seeing such a citation I don't believe a word of it. An expert knife thrower

in broad daylight using a board much larger than a man. The first three times he hit the board hilt first. The fourth time he got the point into the board, but far off center; a man standing in the middle of the board would probably have been unharmed, or at worst would have been hit in the elbow.

So there we have two reported deaths from knife throwing: one a freak accident, and another that better than even money says is a fabrication. Are there any other substantiated instances of knife throwing deaths that I don't know about? Is there any group of soldiers that manage to make the thrown knife consistently lethal? And if not, why not? The Franks did a number on their enemies with throwing axes that only weighed about 21 ounces. I would have thought you could make a throwing knife of a similar weight to the francisca, so why not a throwing knife of similar lethality?

[Brit.Privateer]

Okay, I'll take a stab at this (pun intended).

All I can provide you really is the perspective of if you were going to try this in maritime world of the seventeenth and eighteenth century. For a sailor, first it would all depend on the kind of knife a sailor had. While there was a variety of sailors knives, the majority of styles wouldn't work for throwing. Sheath knives frequently didn't even have a point based on surviving examples. Many of the styles of folding knives you wouldn't allow for good use as a throwing knife. Honestly, I suspect that if you were going to throw a knife, you would have a knife designed for throwing. As for what would a throwing knife look like in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, I have no clue.

Then one has to consider the environment of a ship. It rolls, its compact, and has many things like ropes all over the place. It would make it really difficult to throw one on a ship unless the thrower had been trained or trained themselves to compensate for all that (which is very hard).

So if anyone is interested in trying to incorporate throwing knives into their reenacting persona, I recommend doing a lot of research into throwing knives of the era and to be very careful, especially if you plan to use fake knives in battle recreations. (I wouldn't recommend the battles though. You never know how ticked off someone might get if they get hit in the head with a rubber knife without knowing ahead of time.)

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

99 & 44/100ths% pure fantasy. Knife throwing is a pastime sport, and entertainment/showmans venue. Not saying knives were never thrown n battle out of desperation or in drunken fights, but as a regular combat skill rarely ever seen or done. Best to keep ahold of that knife and get in close. Too much "Ninja" influence.

Bo

[Jas. Hook]

D -

In Swashbuckler, the knife thrower Cudjo (Goffrey Holder) wasn't mentioned as a pirate only a previous acquaintance of Nick Debrett, that had a talant for throwing knives perhaps as an entertainer (given the knife carrying rig he wears) with a checkered past.

Although common in movies as a quick way to dispatch an enemy sentry or pin a pickpockets coat sleeve to the wall... the question remains why throw away a perfectly good knife?

Jas. Hook

[Daniel]

D -

In Swashbuckler, the knife thrower Cudjo (Goffrey Holder) wasn't mentioned as a pirate only a previous acquaintance of Nick Debrett, that had a talant for throwing knives perhaps as an entertainer (given the knife carrying rig he wears) with a checkered past.

Ah, I had forgotten that. It's been many years since I saw the movie. Thanks for correction.

the question remains why throw away a perfectly good knife?

Well, the theoretical reason would be so you can kill or disable your opponent without getting close enough for him to hurt you. Although a pistol does the same thing, the thrown knife is cheaper and doesn't give away your position with a muzzle flash. And it is often said that the knife is silent, although I question that idea: the knife itself may be silent, but the guy you hit with the knife would probably make quite a lot of noise!

So the thrown knife has two or three theoretical advantages, but I don't see any evidence that those advantages have ever been consistently successfully put into practice.

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Not for throwing, and people don't die from knife wounds in the torso in just a few seconds as in the movies. Using a knife for combat requires you to be up-close and personal about it and deadly serious. Wit and stealth are the two key components to successful knife fighting. Agility is third and equally important to success.With a firearm you have one shot (in the GAoP) usually, rarely a double barrel will be a factor, but a knife does not need to be reloaded, and once you get inside the 'personal space" of yopur opponent, he's in serious trouble. Knife fighting is something I can say I am completely familiar with. throwing knives is just as I said before, mostly pure fantasy and an entertainment venue. If you miss, you're shite outta luck, and if your opponent is not effectively disabled, you are also shite outta luck and may get your blade served back to you "in spades."

Bo

[Daniel]

Not for throwing, and people don't die from knife wounds in the torso in just a few seconds as in the movies. Using a knife for combat requires you to be up-close and personal about it and deadly serious. Wit and stealth are the two key components to successful knife fighting. Agility is third and equally important to success.With a firearm you have one shot (in the GAoP) usually, rarely a double barrel will be a factor, but a knife does not need to be reloaded, and once you get inside the 'personal space" of yopur opponent, he's in serious trouble. Knife fighting is something I can say I am completely familiar with. throwing knives is just as I said before, mostly pure fantasy and an entertainment venue. If you miss, you're shite outta luck, and if your opponent is not effectively disabled, you are also shite outta luck and may get your blade served back to you "in spades."

I don't doubt you're right. Especially about people not dying in just a few seconds from a knife wound.

I've never seen a person die from a knife wound, and don't want to, but twice I have seen sheep slaughtered with knives. Even with the entire throat cut clean across to the bone, they both physically struggled for about two minutes.

[Elena]

There are knives specially made for throwing, and in the Mediterranean area many sailors, mercenaries, rogues were familiar with them. They have both sides sharp, and the handle is made of a light-weight wood, so that the weight gets in the blade, to ensure precision. I had read more details, but I can't remember.

[MarkG]

Knife throwing is not really suitable for combat. Normally you throw from a fixed location, trying to time the rotations of the knife to the time it takes to reach the target. In combat your target would not be a fixed distance and probably would not be still. That makes it very undependable. There is at least a 75% chance that the knife will hit at the wrong point of its rotation and bounce off harmlessly. The same thing is true for tomahawks. You can throw them at a fixed target at a fixed distance but you are better off keeping a hold of them in a fight.

[Jas. Hook]

... If you miss, you're shite outta luck, ..."

Bo

Kind of like when Israel Hand went up the mast after Jim Hawkins in Treasure Island.

Jas. Hook

[Iron Hand]

... If you miss, you're shite outta luck, ..."

Bo

Kind of like when Israel Hand went up the mast after Jim Hawkins in Treasure Island.

Jas. Hook

Speakin' from my experience as a frontier fighter during the French & Indian War, and my experience on the Frontier of Virginia afore I took ta Privateering for the American War effort in 1778....Why the Hell would ya want ta throw away a perfectly good weapon. As stated earlier, it's a functional up-close and inside weapon. Samething with hatchets and boarding axes....It makes more sense ta throw your pistol after you've shot it and closed for battle, but then again pistols make excellent clubs in the hand of a master. Just my two schillings worth...I'm comin' back with all my weapons and maybe more, or I'm goin' ta Hell with em.....

[Brit.Privateer]

Speakin' from my experience as a frontier fighter during the French & Indian War, and my experience on the Frontier of Virginia afore I took ta Privateering for the American War effort in 1778....Why the Hell would ya want ta throw away a perfectly good weapon. As stated earlier, it's a functional up-close and inside weapon. Samething with hatchets and boarding axes....It makes more sense ta throw your pistol after you've shot it and closed for battle, but then again pistols make excellent clubs in the hand of a master. Just my two schillings worth...I'm comin' back with all my weapons and maybe more, or I'm goin' ta Hell with em.....

On the point of throwing pistols. We can actually document sailors throwing their pistols during combat. Part of the chapter on Pistols in Wilkerson's Boarders Away talks about this. Its one of many contributing reasons why sea service pistols don't survive through to today. In combat, pistols were used very roughly, including through throwing. Can you imagine what kind of condition a pistol would be in before they decommissioned it?

It seems as though Hollywood has this thing about the ability of swords and knives. One other movie I can think of with throwing knives during sea combat is "Damn the Defiant." Other things Hollywood does is cut ropes quickly with a cutlass. I don't know too many cutlasses that can cut through a good diameter rope in one swing. In addition to one swing cutlass cuts, there are also pistol and musket shots that part ropes. The worst offender in that line is Pirates of the Caribbean 3, At Worlds End, when Norrington shot through several cables used to tow a ship in one pistol shot. If a cable was meant to tow a ship, I would hope it would be sturdy enough to withstand a single pistol shot, even at close range. I would hope that it would take a ton of cuts from an axe to take down such a set of cables. Even shooting a small diameter rope with a gun is extremely difficult to do.

Like I said in my first post, if you can find the period evidence, then by all means go ahead and do what you please. But I'm not the sort that likes the really stretched "it could have happened" stories.

[Daniel]

Like I said in my first post, if you can find the period evidence, then by all means go ahead and do what you please. But I'm not the sort that likes the really stretched "it could have happened" stories.

Rarely have I seen such unanimity from all sides of pirate scholarship. Don't worry, I had no plans whatsoever to integrate knife throwing into a persona - I'm much more a writer than a re-enactor anyway, and the main result here is that I'm going to have to write an episode of knife-throwing out of my book. I had my doubts about it to begin with, as my first post makes clear, and the responses I see here only confirm those doubts.

So, given that combat knife-throwing is completely unhistorical not only for pirates but for just about everybody, what COULD one do in the Golden Age to eliminate an opponent stealthily at range? With throwing axes also ruled out, the only remaining alternatives I see are the bow, crossbow, and spear! The bow and spear were used by Indians, but not so far as I know by pirates; but some Miskito Indians were pirates, or at least worked with them, and were legendary for their prowess hurling the harpoon. Drake's men used crossbows, but I've not heard of them being used during the Golden Age. Is there any record of pirates or other sailors using boarding pikes as throwing weapons?

[Brit.Privateer]

Honestly, I don't know the answer to that question. I'm not sure any pirate tactics and weapons could match that description.

From my understanding of pirate tactics, it wasn't really about stealth at all for pirates, it was about surprise and demonstration of overwhelming strength. Look at the targets pirates often attacked. Merchantmen, and usually not navy ships. The pirate is a robber when you get down to it, and robbers prefer weak targets that they know they can intimidate. And if things get bad, the robber relies on the sheer power of those intimidating weapons he has to blow his way out to victory or escape. These tactics resulted in many victories for pirates. This style of tactics presented a way a victory that required minimal combat skill. If one compares pirates tactics to any other group of people that we identify today as "organized crime," you will often see similar tactics.

As for throwing boarding pikes like spears of javelins, haven't seen that. The ship environment once again would be too restricting for such a thing like with the knife. Also, period descriptions of the little training given to sailors mention using pikes in such a way. Usually what little training that was given on the pike involved keeping your enemy within the point of the pike.

Stealth and range, can't speak for it. But stealth up close can be done. Plenty of sharp things in a period weapon chest to comply with that. Just make sure to sneak up behind your enemy and put a hand over their mouth to muffle the screams.

That last sentence wasn't a creepy way to end a message at all, was it?