More textual evidence for "Period" beer Bottles

[Littleneckhalfshell]

I have been trying for some time to find information on what beer bottles would be like in our period, some say they didn't exist at all, but there is evidence to the contrary.

Here is some more evidence I found on a site. Scum is a publication for the Brewers Guilds of the Kingdom of the East and the Principality of AEthelmearc, of the Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. So I present this article in support of Period beer in bottles, titled: The True Bottling of Beer http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/scum/bottle.html Text dates for the

exercpts include 1609, 1615, & 1691. Now to find a proper bottle ;-)

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Dangitt! I knew I shoulda saved that article, now I can't find it again... within the last two weeks I scanned an article about a wreck dicovered that had crokery bottles that contained a barley beer. I don't remember the name, date, or location of the wreck, but I am pretty sure it was a 17th century one. There is a 19th century Finnish wreck they are going to try to duplicate beer from I saw recently too. maybe here?

Bo

[Littleneckhalfshell]

Yes, the thread is titled ""Finns to revive beer from 19th century shipwreck"" But 19th cent. does not work, wish you could remember the article on the crockery bottles, and hopefully there are pictures some where.

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

I have tried to locate that article again, but so far no luck, I was looking for other things and not beer bottles so i am trying to remeber what i used as my search. Anyhow, I did find this for you:

http://amtreasures.com/ItemDetail_Item_GL0535.aspx

Hope this proves to be an authentic 17th century one.

Well, here is the article and looks like I mixed up information from several of the related articles. Sorry about that.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/17th-century-baltic-sea-shipwreck-discovered_1005670.html

Bo

Edited February 11, 2011 by Capt. Bo of the WTF co.

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

I found this reproduction but no documentation so you be the judge:

http://www.juliasmith.com/historicpottery/stoneware.htm

although it does resemble this piece from Jamestown:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16277/16277-h/16277-h.htm

(scroll down or click on to malting and brewing)

Bo

Edited February 11, 2011 by Capt. Bo of the WTF co.

[Littleneckhalfshell]

Thanks for the reply and effort, but unfortunately I am still where I was before.

The 'Slag' beer bottle, I believe to be miss-labled, they talk about the British being on the island where it was found in the 1800's

which is the 19th century, but label the glass bottle as 17th Century. It does not have any of the signs of a bottle from the 1600's

notably it does not have any sign on the bottom of where the blowing rod would have broken off as a 17th cent. bottle should have, also the top of the bottle has edges that are much too sharp and uniform for a bottle from the 17th century.

On the other hand I have seen some references that the Beleramrine (sp?) jugs, the ones with the face on them, could have been used for storing beer, but, am not sure if that is also something in error or not, you can't always trust what you read on the internet. Mostly I have seen them just referred to as holding wine. They however do fit the time period.

[MarkG]

Thanks for the reply and effort, but unfortunately I am still where I was before.

The 'Slag' beer bottle, I believe to be miss-labled, they talk about the British being on the island where it was found in the 1800's

which is the 19th century, but label the glass bottle as 17th Century. It does not have any of the signs of a bottle from the 1600's

notably it does not have any sign on the bottom of where the blowing rod would have broken off as a 17th cent. bottle should have, also the top of the bottle has edges that are much too sharp and uniform for a bottle from the 17th century.

On the other hand I have seen some references that the Beleramrine (sp?) jugs, the ones with the face on them, could have been used for storing beer, but, am not sure if that is also something in error or not, you can't always trust what you read on the internet. Mostly I have seen them just referred to as holding wine. They however do fit the time period.

The Gervase Markham quote in your original link is probably the best description you are likely to find:

you shall put it into round bottles with narrow mouths, and then stopping them close with cork, set them in a cold cellar up to the waist in sand, and be sure that the corks be fast tied in with strong pack-thread, for fear of rising out, or taking vent, which is the utter spoil of the ale.

Jamestown Glasshouse sells bottles like this although I don't know if they are up to holding pressurized contents. They turn them out fast and they are encouraged to make them look handmade. The onion bottles are the closest to Markham's description.

[theM.A.dDogge]

i have ever only seen the small "mallet" style mentioned as beer bottles...tho even those seem to be on the scarce side...seems most would drink from the taverns kegs or take/make at home small kegs for the everyday meal drinking kind of beer.

tho it would almost have to be a "round" bottle...being "windy" or under pressure...the round bottles were considered the stronger under pressure

looking for this guys refference:

http://www.bottlebooks.com/beertime/Understanding%20Beer%20Bottles.htm

"In the 1700-1800s, “the terms 'Ale', 'Porter', 'Beer', 'Stout', or 'Lager' meant neither more nor less than 'Beer' fermented at varying temperatures, and clarified naturally by a shorter or longer after-fermentation." Because supply did not meet the American demand, these products were widely imported into the United States from Europe in both pottery and glass bottles. The earliest reference I could find was an 1764 ad which offered among other things, "bibles, Spelling books, primmers gloucester cheese and bottled beer."

[marlinspike]

ummm, hope I am not stepping on anyone's toes here... I would be a bit weary of this. first of all, there are a few references to yeast with dates prior to 1676 - the year it was discovered by Anton van Leeuwenhoek. Plus, yeast wasn't linked to the brewing process until Pasteur's discoveries in the 1860s. Then it talks about skimming the yeast off the top before bottling - that is not yeast, it is krausun; basically just foam. By the time beer is ready to bottle/keg the majority of the yeast is on the bottom of the fermenter.

Also...

"In the 1700-1800s, "the terms 'Ale', 'Porter', 'Beer', 'Stout', or 'Lager' meant neither more nor less than 'Beer' fermented at varying temperatures, and clarified naturally by a shorter or longer after-fermentation."

So totally not true that it is almost insulting to the brewing industry.

Yes lagers are cold fermented and aged, but Porters and Stouts are ales. The difference between the terms Ale, Porter, and Stout is that porters and stouts are made with roasted grains. Originally porters were a blend of several ales, and are only relatively recently their own style.

Beer was never brewed for long term storage; once tapped, the kegs would go sour within a week if not consumed.

Again, not trying to step on toes here, I am just doubtful of the accuracy of articles with so many errors.

As for bottles being around; probably some - but I doubt there would be any in great numbers. Like it was already said, they were hand blown into molds. Anyone who has tried or seen glass being blown can tell you: it takes a bloody long time - and time = expensive.

[Littleneckhalfshell]

not to step on your toes, but you may be looking at old manuscripts with only modern glasses

you are under the assumption that the word YEAST could not have been used before it was understood in our modern understanding, ala Pasture etc. Put on some period glasses and investigate the word, before it meant those single cell wonders that transform sugars into wonderful brew.

""The word "yeast" comes to us from Old English gist, gyst, and from the Indo-European root yes-, meaning boil, foam, or bubble.""

("Appendix I: Indo-European Roots". The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th ed.). 2000. Retrieved 2008-11-16.)

As you can see, the word can mean 'foam' as you were quick to reference as to that which they would skim off the top of the bottle, and THAT

is exactly what they were saying in their missive by using the good old english word 'yeast'. It just has to be seen and understood from the perspective and common language of the time period. Words have changed their meaning or common understanding over the years, and the word

"yeast" is one of those words.

On another level, yeast WAS understood and conserved by brewers before it was understood as a living organism, again thanks to Pasture.

some believed it to be a chemical reaction, but they knew that it worked wonders on the grain tea. You don't always have to know all the science that makes a car go, in order to drive one. Again no steping on toes here, just trying to find a period proper recepticle (other than a cask) to transport my beer in.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Littleneckhalfshell

[marlinspike]

Right, but were they knowingly conserving it? I don't think they were. They were saving it as beer/wine/bread, the link between fermentation and saccharomyces wasn’t established until the 1860s. Until Pasteur isolated and propagated it - and even after I'm sure - brewers pitched small quantities of previous batches into freshly boiled wort to start the fermentation - just as starters are used in sourdough bread. That, plus open fermenters were used so wild yeast most likely entered the fray.

But, I am getting too far off topic. I have a couple questions.

1) How are you using the bottles? Just for transportation/drinking pre-carbonated brews? - or - are you going to bottle and carbonate in them?

2) Are you looking for honest to God, true to the period, complete with maker’s mark bottles – or will modern bottles with the right shape work?

found this, thought it might be useful...

http://www.sha.org/research_resources/documents/Cylindrical%20English%20Wine%20and%20Beer%20Bottles%20-%20English.pdf

P.S. Thank you Thank you Thank you for the proper Citation

[jendobyns]

From the bits and pieces so far, and checking in Hume's work, it looks like an onion-shaped bottle is your best bet, although you could use other containers as well, like the bellarmine, depending on your scenario. Did you get your beer from the local tavern (servants would fetch a pitcher), bring it with you on the ship, or make it at home? Onion bottles would be sufficiently rounded and non-specific in use enough to have been used, the rounded shape having been stressed because of the equal pressure exerted on the bottle. It also sounds, from what I've been reading (and you probably have, too) that beer in period may not have been as bubbly as we're used to drinking, therefore less pressure on the bottle and cork.

Another term for yeast, is barm. Actually, it's the foamy stuff containing yeast that rises to the top in brewing. It was also used for making bread. I know I have a recipe/receipt around here somewhere that includes scooping a cup full of barm out of the barrel to use in baking. But it's late and I'm not looking for it now.

[Littleneckhalfshell]

any container can be use to transport for quick consumption ale from a cask, old wine bottles, jugs, even buckets, and I am sure all these were done in period at one time or another. However my aim is to brew and bottle a period ale, in period bottles. I have brewed and bottled and even kegged beer and am aware of the process with first hand knowledge. I expect to brew a beer of lesser effervesance, as modern brews are much more 'explosive' than their 17th centuary counterparts. I don't expect to brew a known or namesake ale, the bottles need not have identification, but proper materials and size is my criteria. Stoneware seems more likely than glass in my research as the stoneware bottles would likely be more sturdy against the pressure and less expensive in period manufacture (as previously mentioned by many, glass can be expensive in period). On another forum it is suggested that a small or large Bellarmine jug may be the model to follow. There is evidence of mid 18th cent. Ale botles in this form.

Westmoore Pottery has 8" tall one that is similar to the artifact identified as an ale bottle in a symposia, it can be seen as item #442 at http://westmoorepottery.com/store.htm, the major difference is that the Westmoore reproduction has a stright neck whereas the artifact has a bulbous neck at it's top. Thank you all for your interest.

[MarkG]

any container can be use to transport for quick consumption ale from a cask, old wine bottles, jugs, even buckets, and I am sure all these were done in period at one time or another. However my aim is to brew and bottle a period ale, in period bottles. I have brewed and bottled and even kegged beer and am aware of the process with first hand knowledge. I expect to brew a beer of lesser effervesance, as modern brews are much more 'explosive' than their 17th centuary counterparts. I don't expect to brew a known or namesake ale, the bottles need not have identification, but proper materials and size is my criteria. Stoneware seems more likely than glass in my research as the stoneware bottles would likely be more sturdy against the pressure and less expensive in period manufacture (as previously mentioned by many, glass can be expensive in period). On another forum it is suggested that a small or large Bellarmine jug may be the model to follow. There is evidence of mid 18th cent. Ale botles in this form.

Westmoore Pottery has 8" tall one that is similar to the artifact identified as an ale bottle in a symposia, it can be seen as item #442 at http://westmoorepottery.com/store.htm, the major difference is that the Westmoore reproduction has a stright neck whereas the artifact has a bulbous neck at it's top. Thank you all for your interest.

Westmoore does good work. I have a Bellarmine or two from them. You are probably safer with their pottery than a repro glass bottle.

[Littleneckhalfshell]

found a 1700 Ale bottle on an auction site, actually two bottles, if anyone is interested, they can be viewed (at least presently) at the following site, they are roughly half way down the first page.

http://www.northernantiques.co.uk/pottery.html

They look a lot like a small Bellarmine, but without the face and with a handle, just over 8" tall with a liped top. So if I can believe the information on the site, then I might have at least a picture of my bottle, now to see if I can get one somewhere, or a half dozen (need a six pack, no?) ;-)

Edited February 22, 2011 by Littleneckhalfshell

[jendobyns]

From "A Guide to Artifacts of Colonial America" by Ivor Noel Hume, which I cannot recommend enough.

Bottles, Pottery: (skipping the part about earlier 17C Bellarmines, which have their own part in this book, and costrels)

"The need for pottery bottles quickly declined as the production of glass bottles increased, and in the eighteenth century the only common pottery bottles were of brown stoneware, the English descendant of the Bellarmine. The body was gray and covered to a point below the midsection with an iron-oxide slip that turned either purple of a rich, brown stipple in the firing. The bodies resembled the late Bellarmines in shape, had a single strap handle, while the necks were generally cordoned below the lip. They came in various capacities from a pint to about five gallons, though the quart and gallon sizes are the most common survivors. No closely datable characteristics have so far been detected, and it is virtually impossible to tell the difference between those made in 1690 or 1770, though this would seem to be the span of their popularity." (Bold type my own for emphasis, considering the model posted from the DeWitt-Wallace gallery and it's date.)

Under "Bottles, glass liquor", there is also a group of charts of various glass bottles, showing shapes from 1652-1713, 1713-1732, and 1733-1740, and so on up to the 19C.

In the section on Bellarmines, he says of the body medallions that the earliest known marked is 1550. Also "By the second quarter of the seventeenth century, however, the masks were deteriorating and gradually became so stylized that the once-flowing beard had been reduced to a series of irregular strokes, while the features, too, became equally crude. At the same time the pleasing rotundity of the early bottles had been replaced by an elongated pear-shaped form with a disproportionately small base, heavy cordoning at the neck, and medallions that were no more than rosettes or meaningless pseudo-armorial devices. Earlier, they had carefully depicted the arms of monarchs, noblemen, patrons, towns and merchants. The latest dated example is marked 1767."

There you go, make of it what you will.

[jendobyns]

Are you talking about this one and it's fellow? http://www.northernantiques.co.uk/stone_jug_page1.htm

Very nice! It would be worth finding a potter who can make them, and not too heavy, let me know if you have any luck and if you don't have to mortgage your house to buy a half dozen.

found a 1700 Ale bottle on an auction site, actually two bottles, if anyone is interested, they can be viewed (at least presently) at the following site, they are roughly half way down the first page.

http://www.northerna...uk/pottery.html

They look a lot like a small Bellarmine, but without the face and with a handle, just over 8" tall with a liped top. So if I can believe the information on the site, then I might have at least a picture of my bottle, now to see if I can get one somewhere, or a half dozen (need a six pack, no?) ;-)

[Littleneckhalfshell]

Yes, that is a two picture view of one of the two bottles on that site, one is just a little bit taller than the other one, variations in the manufacturing process I guess. I assume that these are 'thrown' on a wheel, and hand made. I wonder if one could make a 'slip' mold and cast them, I did some of that back in my college days, not sure if a cast bottle would hold up to the pressure or not, though I only assume that a built up thrown bottle would be stronger. Anyway potters out there have a two pence to throw into the disscussion? If they could be molded, it would make it cheaper to get my six pack

Edited February 22, 2011 by Littleneckhalfshell

[MarkG]

Yes, that is a two picture view of one of the two bottles on that site, one is just a little bit taller than the other one, variations in the manufacturing process I guess. I assume that these are 'thrown' on a wheel, and hand made. I wonder if one could make a 'slip' mold and cast them, I did some of that back in my college days, not sure if a cast bottle would hold up to the pressure or not, though I only assume that a built up thrown bottle would be stronger. Anyway potters out there have a two pence to throw into the disscussion? If they could be molded, it would make it cheaper to get my six pack

Around 20 years ago a friend of mine became interested in pottery and learned to make these. His teacher made one as a demonstration piece then cut it in half vertically with a wire to show the cross-section. The entire jug should have an even thickness.

I'm sure that a thrown pot is stronger than a molded one.

[jendobyns]

From Deb Peterson, forwarded with her permission (we've had this discussion over on SavoryFare2). Love the woman, she comes up with so much treasure for us foodies! I modified the url so it fits. If it doesn't work, I'm sure you'll let me know

________________________________________________________

I was looking up something for another project and found references to glass <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">beer bottles. They look a LOT like the one listed at -

<br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">http://tinyurl.com/4ud64l6<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Ivor Noël Hume, All the Best Rubbish, tell sus that In January 1953 a huge <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">storm swept across England. a large amount of broken and intact glass wine <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">bottles of the early 18c were found strewn along the high water line. Some <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">were still corked and full. Analysis proved them to be full of beer. (See <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">image p. 77)<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">The bottles that were intact, showed no sign of sand abrasion, and still had <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">the thin brass wire securing the corks in place. It turns out a ship, the <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Rising Sun, had foundered November 27, 1703 off the coast on the Goodwins, <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">(England) with no fewer than 2,500 bottles of beer in her holds, all packed <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">in wooden chests. Papers that turned up 200 years later, The [Thomas] <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Bowrey Papers, are so complete that they include invoices not only for the <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">beer, the bottles, and the corks, and the wire to hold them down, but also <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">for the chest and the iron hinges and locks used to secure them. The Ship’s <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">inventories show that the chests were of two sizes, the larger holding up to <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">176 bottles, the smaller around 116 bottles. pp. 79,80.<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">I love stumbling across great information!<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Deborah<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Deborah Peterson's Pantry<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">www.deborahspantry.com

[PoD]

Yes, that is a two picture view of one of the two bottles on that site, one is just a little bit taller than the other one, variations in the manufacturing process I guess. I assume that these are 'thrown' on a wheel, and hand made. I wonder if one could make a 'slip' mold and cast them, I did some of that back in my college days, not sure if a cast bottle would hold up to the pressure or not, though I only assume that a built up thrown bottle would be stronger. Anyway potters out there have a two pence to throw into the disscussion? If they could be molded, it would make it cheaper to get my six pack

I saw a guy at the market i went to last saturday who did bellarmine jugs that size but with the faces on. It's all hand made stuff so i bet he could knock them up without the decoration. I have a flyer somewhere I grabbed so as soon as I can find it I will post the information

[PoD]

I commissioned a guy who specialises in historical pottery to make me a couple of these bottles and I pick them up next month. I'll post pictures when i get them

[PoD]

ok my beer bottles arrived today (the guy turned out to be the potters husband not the actual potter)

Here is the original:

And here are mine:

[Mission]

I don't know if those are any good. You better test them right away.

[PoD]

I don't know if those are any good. You better test them right away.

waaaay ahead of you on that one ha ha