hair beads and non realistic garb

[PLUNDERING PYLOS PARKER]

so since i posted a comment on the craft site and was repremanded there i will post it here, I really don't understand all this fantasy garb, including non shooting guns, hairbeads/hair ties, tennis shoes with garb, non period pieces of equipment within the wrong circa, ie; tents, shelters, and clothing. we are here and at faires to replicate historical facts that are best known way we know, from ledgers, court documents, journals, paintings, authors/books, college courses, research, arch. /research sites, shipwrecks, antiques, and interviews from descentdants. when re-enacting a time-line (circa) it looks better for the public to see fact than fiction, to give off a perception of how history may have looked by research.. things aren't all that different today, than back in time, people were smaller but we know from records exceptions to the rule (blackbeard was over 6' tall.) Beads were used as a currency during GAOP (which most of us re-enact by the clothing and picture gallery we see here) they (beads, weapons, trinkets,tools) were traded to noble kings in africa for slaves , during the slave trade, during the 16th -19th centuries. beads were traded to various tribes throughout the caribbean islands and the spanish main for goods such as gold,silver,jewels,spices,ect. you didnt see dabloons or pieces of eight coins on clothing , it doesnt show within past clothing we see today. do we wear money in our hair today, no we use it to trade for goods. Like beads WAMPUM, used by eastern woodland tribes in north america long before european arrival, these beads or quahog,clam shells were used to trade, make deals, and represent tribes family ties, and as currency. during the past centuries european people wanted free life to grow and gain prosperity raise families and live a full life, they arent any different than we are today. times are different today because of technology. it would be nice to go to a pirate faire and see historical fact, not fantasy to replicate as it may have been. from the garb we wear to the environment and surrounding they had around them. by posting non period wears to other folks only shows your lack of knowledge on your part, try and read or take a course on history at a local college and try to improve yer garb, we all started somewhere, even i did, but we all have to grow and show others there is more than fantasy in re-enacting. we go to museums to see the past as i was, we should go to a piarte faire to see how it was. if ya want fantasy go to a fantasy faire. the greybeards here should do more to help the greenhorns, replicate history by the clothing they wear, the GAOP on no quarter given is a great site with plenty of historical research, lets all do our part and get the pirate faires more authentic. it would be nice to go to a fiare and see traders/sutlers and vendors selling period wares that fit the circas. including vendors booths that have an appeal that fits into the event/faire they are doing, tighter rules need to be placed. blue tarps isnt right!

[Cannibal Chrispy]

Consider this, Pirates were the equivelent of todays rock stars, not that they had throngs of adoring fans, it is a reference to a lifestyle, People who lived on the fringe of society without much reguard for rules, or how you are supposed to act, or what you are supposed to wear. They were alcoholics, drug users, rapists and criminals. Just as you will find prevolent today in those circles, a large cross section of these same types of people will be drawn to flashy clothes, excessive jewelry, Tattoos and body modification. Pirates picked up people and customs from every port often replicating whatever they thought looked cool or intimidating. if you expect me to believe that on more than one pirate ship there wasent a couple of guys with tats, bones in thier noses, more than one earring, dreadlocks, and decorated themselves with ribbons and trade beads, I think your incredibly short sighted Furthermore any search of circulated antique coins will find several of them have holes drilled, punched, or hammered through them after minting, they had to be tied to somthing or someone. The beads on my hat were not bought at a store they came frrom different pirates i have met in my travels, they are memories, momentos and souviners, small and easy to carry, little trinkets that made me happy, so i collected them and added them to my outfit, just as people have been doing since the record of people began. So i implore you to do your pirate thing your way, however until you have some souviners of your travels to show people and tell them where and how you got them, in my opinion you will look like a proper english sailor or the new guy on the pirate ship.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Cannibal Chrispy

[PLUNDERING PYLOS PARKER]

hey pal it sounds like the pirate fatasy faires is were you belong, rock stars and pirates, you ought to read a book before you spout facts (why have a battle of WITS with an unarmed person)

Consider this, Pirates were the equivelent of todays rock stars, People who lived on the fringe of society without much reguard for rules, or how you are supposed to act, or what you are supposed to wear. They were alcoholics, drug users, rapists and criminals. Just as you will find prevolent today in those circles, a large cross section of these same types of people will be drawn to flashy clothes, excessive jewelry, Tattoos and body modification. Pirates picked up people and customs from every port often replicating whatever they thought looked cool or intimidating. if you expect me to believe that on more than one pirate ship there wasent a couple of guys covered with tats, bones in thier noses, more than one earring, dreadlocks, and decorated themselves with ribbons and trade beads, I think your incredibly short sighted Furthermore any search of circulated antique coins will find several of them have holes drilled, punched, or hammered through them after minting, they had to be tied to somthing or someone. The beads on my hat were not bought at a store they came frrom different pirates i have met in my travels, they are memories, momentos and souviners, small and easy to carry, little trinkets that made me happy, so i collected them and added them to my outfit, just as people have been doing since the record of people began. So i implore you to do your pirate thing your way, however until you have some souviners of your travels to show people and tell them where and how you got them, in my opinion you will look like a proper english sailor or the new guy on the pirate ship.

[michaelsbagley]

Moderator Hat on...

Okay guys... This forum is for academic discussion of history. Friendly debate and posting of fact/counter-fact with a modicum of opinion based on available evidence (reasonable extrapolation). While this forum may be the place to discuss whether "hair beads" are historically accurate or not, this discussion is not being conducted in a manner that falls within the "guidelines". Keep it civil or take it up in private messages please.

775pirate4, I know you are new to this forum, so welcome. Please, please, please take some time to acquaint yourself with the conventions of the different sections. On the whole, civility is a rule. I am also one who strives very hard for authenticity, but this forum caters to both historic re-enactors AND those who prefer pirate themed, pop-culture inspired activities. Learn to play nice with both side of the hobby, or PM me and I can recommend a forum where ONLY pirate re-enactors discuss history. If you want to play on this forum learn to play nice. Also it has been pointed out several times that you are having trouble stating anything in a single post. Multiple posts to make a point clutter up the forum and waste screen space. Please also learn to acquaint yourself with the "Edit" button to add to existing post rather than posting three sequential posts. Now everyone, we return you all to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Moderator hat off.

[Cannibal Chrispy]

In between my many bookings this year as Master of Cerimonies, historic lecturer, product spokesman, and auctioneer for some of the largest pirate events in the world I will try to read a book,

[MarkG]

I don't know about tattoos being common on pirates. These came in and out of style. In the 18th century sailors got their tattoos in Polynesia which is also where the word comes from. It was a way of showing that you had been to such an exotic port.

A lot of "ancient" sailor lore came from the 19th century, especially whalers and I suspect that the association between tattoos and sailors comes from this period.

Does anyone have any research to show that tattooing was common around 1700?

[michaelsbagley]

There is an old VERY long very vibrant discussion on Tattoos in the GAoP at this link on this forum. It springs back to life from time to time.

[PLUNDERING PYLOS PARKER]

read 18th century tattooing by, Ted Franklin Belue in the book of BUCKSKINNING VIII, page 34. i live in the 21st century like you do. i have period tattows and i have modern tattoos. i live in both worlds and can cover my tattoos with sleeves if i want to be period correct. if you want to start pointing out flaws everyone here i can do the same, as i have said before it looks like i have touched a nerve with the discussion on fact and fantasy. you and i know that all this fantasy is a joke and by seeing your garb, it seems you know what you are doing. tattoos have exsisted long before european contact, they didnt become popular until the middle of the 18th century so as far as GAOP they really werent all that popular amongst sailors, a few had them but most didnt until the late 18th century. i have gone under the "knife" with tatua under gar fish teeth tapping (polyansia)(pacific tribal people), and traditional japanese tattow , and also modern tattoo guns. native american and people of the spanish main (south america) did have tattoos and scarification, including skull transformations. so it would be correct to have tattoos , its just most of the inks toady are commercial as back then its was charcoal, with urine mix, and other remidies included. pictures were of geomatric designs and totem animals and figures. they werent any transfers then and everything was rough and had an unfinished look. the colors werent bright and were rather dull , like prison tattoos, is a good sample for a resource. i have done extensive research on this topic and will have a fun time discussing it with others.

[Ransom]

777pirate4, since you are new, here is some kind advice I hope you will follow.

1) If you are attempting to argue period correctness vs non-period correctness be advised, that is an old, old, old debate here on the Pub, which no one is interested in rehashing.

2) If you want to talk about tattoos, then Michael has pointed out the existing thread to make those comments on.

3) If there is some other subject you wish to discuss, I recommend that you look through the Twill threads to make sure there isn't a place where that subject is already under discussion, and join in there, rather than create a new thread which simply repeats old information.

4) It would be helpful if you wrote your comments in a more understandable way...rather than in text/twitter speak. It gives some of us a headache trying to read it.

5) As a new member, we want you to feel free to take part in any discussions, with the provision that you play nicely. You won't gain anyone to your cause by being abrasive to those who don't play the piracy game in the same way you do.

6) Twill is for period correct discussion. It is not a place to bash those who chose to play a more popular-culture, movie-type of pirate, or a total fantasy pirate. The Pub welcomes everyone, no matter how they play. It's what makes it a fun forum.

So, by all means, discuss what you like, bring in new information if you have it, but check to see who and what discussions have gone before. The Pub has been around for a long time. There is very little that hasn't been talked about at one time or another.

[hurricane]

Thank you Michael and Ransom for your attempts to guide. Well said!

Perhaps these and other guidelines in the Welcome Aboard section would help others acclimate to the way things are done here. It may help new posters become more effective. I would hate to see newbies shunned simply because they just didn't know the generally accepted guidelines of posting here.

[Commodore Swab]

In regards of wearing currency many long gold chains were worn to avoid taxation. As Chrispy pointed out many coins have been found with holes punched into them. It seems natural to realize that it was accecpted to wear currency during the GAoP. As for what pirates may or may not of worn I can't say but if it was accecpted in the rest of society would they be that different? And for our next topic boot . . . (just kidding)

Swab

[Fox]

Okay guys... This forum is for academic discussion of history. Friendly debate and posting of fact/counter-fact with a modicum of opinion based on available evidence (reasonable extrapolation). While this forum may be the place to discuss whether "hair beads" are historically accurate or not,

With Michael's excellent summary of the conventions of Twill in mind, I'd like to address the question of hair beads and the like.

including non shooting guns, hairbeads/hair ties, tennis shoes with garb, non period pieces of equipment within the wrong circa, ie; tents, shelters, and clothing.

Non-shooting guns have their place - especially here in the UK where gun laws can be silly at times. I have a mix of live and inert guns, and I use them both in roughly equal measure. Non-firing good replicas are not the same as Denix die-cast toys of course.

Non-period pieces of equipment and clothing ought, in an authentic setting, to be eliminated as a matter of priority, but I wonder how many can truly say they've succeeded. Have you 775pirate4? I've certainly tried my best, and you'd have to look very hard indeed to find the few small anachronisms in what I wear/do, but I'm not so foolish as to claim 100% complete authenticity.

Consider this, Pirates were the equivelent of todays rock stars, not that they had throngs of adoring fans, it is a reference to a lifestyle, People who lived on the fringe of society without much reguard for rules, or how you are supposed to act, or what you are supposed to wear.

Can you show that to be an historically accurate representation of pirates, or is that just another part of the Hollywood pirate myth? Or something in between?

They were alcoholics, drug users, rapists and criminals. Just as you will find prevolent today in those circles, a large cross section of these same types of people will be drawn to flashy clothes, excessive jewelry, Tattoos and body modification.

But what people in the early 18thC considered 'flashy clothes' was not necessarily the same as what we would consider as 'flashy clothes'. Our concept of 'flash pirate gear' has been massively shaped by what Hollywood considers to be 'cool'. The same can be said of the excessive jewellery, tattoos, and body modifications: we think they look cool, but did your average early 18th century pirate? Don't mistake our own conventions with those of the past.

Pirates picked up people and customs from every port often replicating whatever they thought looked cool or intimidating.

Which ports?

Pirates of the GAoP habitually frequented the ports of colonial America and the Caribbean, which were full of white settlers who didn't have bones through their noses; the slaving ports of West Africa, where they dealt largely with the white inhabitants, also without nasal ossiary; European (especially French) colonies in the Indian Ocean where I don't think there were any bones through noses, but you never know with the French; and St. Mary's Island, Madagascar, where the pirates were the principal white settlers, and were certainly involved with the natives (but it was the pirates who were cool and intimidating), and I'm not aware of earrings, tattoos, or nasal bones being fashionable amongst the Malagasy, but I could well be wrong.

if you expect me to believe that on more than one pirate ship there wasent a couple of guys with tats, bones in thier noses, more than one earring, dreadlocks, and decorated themselves with ribbons and trade beads, I think your incredibly short sighted

We know (see the other thread mentioned) that some sailors sported tattoos in our time-frame, but we also know that it was extremely rare. As for the other things, I'll fall back on my usual argument: show us some evidence. We've got descriptions of sailors and pirates, and not one of them to my recollection mentions dreads or bones, and I can guarantee that I've never seen any evidence whatsoever of any pirate of 1690-1730 wearing an earring.

Furthermore any search of circulated antique coins will find several of them have holes drilled, punched, or hammered through them after minting, they had to be tied to somthing or someone.

That's a very good point, but it doesn't show that they were worn in the hair or as a decoration anywhere else.

So i implore you to do your pirate thing your way, however until you have some souviners of your travels to show people and tell them where and how you got them, in my opinion you will look like a proper english sailor or the new guy on the pirate ship.

How long do you imagine the average pirate career to have been, and how long do you imagine such a transformation as you suggest to have taken?

As you say, do the pirate thing your way, and all blessings to you whatever your way may be, but please don't pretend that it's historical if it isn't.

A lot of "ancient" sailor lore came from the 19th century, especially whalers and I suspect that the association between tattoos and sailors comes from this period.

That's one of the most sensible things said on this forum, and it's a pleasure that somebody else has said it.

[Commodore Swab]

Just to clarify the gold chains I mentioned being worn was wealth being brought back from the new world to Spain. If memory serves jewlery was not taxed so if you desired to return with "duty free" items you made sure it was jewlery and not coins or gold bars. This jewlery would be something that had worth in the old world (gold, gems, etc).

[Cascabel]

Just to clarify the gold chains I mentioned being worn was wealth being brought back from the new world to Spain. If memory serves jewlery was not taxed so if you desired to return with "duty free" items you made sure it was jewlery and not coins or gold bars. This jewlery would be something that had worth in the old world (gold, gems, etc).

.......and pure gold is quite soft, like lead, so individual links could be twisted off easily to pay for something if needed. Seems to me that one of the gold chains found on the Atocha was made of links of one ounce weight each. How convenient !!

>>>> Cascabel

[Cannibal Chrispy]

Looks around cautiously, raises hand and quietly says, Excuse me,

it seems that a statment I made in defence of one mans art has propelled me into deeper waters than I care to tread. If I may take a moment to try to explain myself more clearly. My beliefs are based on my life experiences, I was a "roadie" for touring bands for 18 yrs and traveled extensively, when i said pirates were like rock stars, I did not mean for everyone to picture Bon Jovi in a tricorn. I was attempting to imply that I think they looked and acted a little different than the norm, once you get a little bit of "fame" and or "fortune" it tends to change most people, the way they dress, act and live. They may often find that a lot of "rules" dont apply to them anymore. I have no historic data to back this up but i cant imagine it has ever been any diffent from B.C. to goap to now. I have seen rapidy amassed fortune change people drastically firsthand, in some cases turning otherwise nice people into lecherous drunkards ready to fight at the drop of a hat.

Tattoos. dreadlocks, bones in thier noses, were extreme, dramatic, bad examples of what i was trying to say, in essence my feelings are that if you saw a group of pirates walking down the street I believe they would look different. Perhaps not as drastic as a punk rock band at a republican convention. but definatly having a "presence" perhaps not unlike a group of Hells Angels today, Their unconventional appearance making you instantly aware that you should be cautious.

As to beads, They had value, they were decorative, and also small and easy to loose, they have a hole in them, it seems like a logical assumtion that they would be secured someplace not to difficult to retrieve for use, again my assumtion, with no data, evidence, or solid proof.

And as far as the length of time it would take to "transform" someone, that would be based on individuals. and again I have no documentaton to support this however i can not help but think if your "average" sailor was pressed into pirate "service" after a bit of time he would be changed in many ways, i.e. the guy that stepped off the pirate ship would look and act differently than he did 6 mos. ago. Once again based only on my personal experiences. 6 months on tour with Warrant certainly changed the way I thought, looked and acted, in retrospect, certainly not for the better. I had money, i was "cool" and I didnt give a rats ass if you didnt like the ring in my nose, so move outta my way while i do the blow off that chicks boob i have a show to do. It didnt take me long to adopt the attitude of those around me. Nothing to be proud of, but that was how it was for me. and I am sure that it was the same for some of them.

I do apologize for dragging your focus to my rant. I know you could be doing somthing constructive. If I thought "Professor" Foxe and "Principal" Cascabel (said with the utmost respect and reverence) were going to be involved i would have probably remained silent as I dont have any proof whatsoever, those men are pinnacles of knowledge for the rest of us to look up to. I just wanted for all to be without persecution, free to dress like jack sparrow or make nice strings of beads. Sorry if my passion overtook my wisdom. The only fact i can provide you with after reading my posts from last night is.......... You should not mix beer and Nyquil!

Bows respectfully.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Cannibal Chrispy

[Mission]

There's something wrong with tennis shoes and garb? (There are those of us diabetics who have to mind our feet carefully and after awhile those period shoes begin to do damage to the plantar faschia. So after-hours and when carousing in the streets, I wear tennies, myself.)

Is it already time to start this discussion? I thought we waited at least 6 months between re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-hashing this.

[oderlesseye]

Consider this, Pirates were the equivelent of todays rock stars, not that they had throngs of adoring fans, it is a reference to a lifestyle, People who lived on the fringe of society without much reguard for rules, or how you are supposed to act, or what you are supposed to wear.

Can you show that to be an historically accurate representation of pirates, or is that just another part of the Hollywood pirate myth? Or something in between?

Jean Lafitte Was Considered a hero in New Orleans

ROCK STAR ! <----- Click the link*******

With out names and just conjecture on my part ..Eye think any pirate became popular who fenced goods at a cut-rate price that enabled the colonies to skirt the British taxes..

Edited January 13, 2011 by oderlesseye

[PoD]

As someone who has dreadlocks and has had them way before Pirates of the Caribbean was made I have to agree with Foxe. I have tried my hardest to find some reference to Pirate or Sailors having dreadlocks (although dreadlocks is a modern term from the 1950s if I recall).

The closest reference I found to dreadlocks and infact beads etc. being worn in the hair can be found in the 1708 book; "A new voyage to the East-Indies by Francis Leguat and his companions..." By François Leguat & Maximilien Misson. When visiting the Cape of good hope he encountered the Khoikhoi people living among the colonists. They were then referred to as Hottentot’s. A description of them mentions the following:

"Their Hair is all frizled, greasie, and powderd with Dust, and moreover matted together in Tufts, to each of which hangs a piece of Glass, or some small bit of Copper or other Metal."

Also there is a reference in the 1729 book "Madagascar: or, Robert Drury's journal, during fifteen years captivity on that island" By Daniel Defoe that mentions a meeting with the King of one of the tribes on the island:

"His hair was twisted in knots, beginning at the Crown of his Head, making a small ring ; then another Ring of Knots bigger than that, and so on downward, every circle larger than the upper ; on several of these knots of Hair hung some fine beads : He had a fore-head piece of Beads so low , that some of them hung over his nose....."

and finally in the 1714 book "The travels of several learned missioners of the Society of Jesus: into divers parts of the archipelago, India, China, and America. Containing a general description of the most remarkable towns; with a particular account of the customs, manners and religion of those several nations, the whole interspers'd with philosophical observations and other curious remarks" By Jesuits, Diéreville the natives of Accadia (Canada)

"They bind their hair with strings of black and white small glass beads, and make a great knot of it, which hangs no lower than their ears..."

So the hair style may have exsisted in some form and natives that had come into contact with seafarers had hairbeads but as Foxe says there is no reference to any pirates, sailors or even colonists adopting it.

That said, as people say above we live in the 2 different worlds being a reenactor, and as more of the time I am in the modern guise I won't be getting rid of my dreads anytime soon. I can disguise them if need be with a large monmouth or thrum cap. Also as I have a great interest in the Dutch side of things in the GAOP I am sticking to wearing an earring too as I think we proved dutch sailors wore those from the pictures I posted elsewhere on the site.

[Brit.Privateer]

I am sticking to wearing an earring too as I think we proved dutch sailors wore those from the pictures I posted elsewhere on the site.

Found the thread you were referring to: https://pyracy.com/index.php?showtopic=6921&st=0&p=390051&hl=+pod%20+earring&fromsearch=1entry390051

But the website that was linked to the British Museum wasn't quite working. Any chance anyone else can find a working one? Also, why is it that its that these examples are all Dutch? Is it possible that they have them because they went somewhere where locals wore ear rings (the east indies or somewhere on the way?).

Anyway, all I have to say about hair beads, head scarves, earrings, and the lot is: blame Howard Pyle, he screwed it up for all of us.

[PoD]

I am sticking to wearing an earring too as I think we proved dutch sailors wore those from the pictures I posted elsewhere on the site.

Found the thread you were referring to: https://pyracy.com/in...=1

But the website that was linked to the British Museum wasn't quite working. Any chance anyone else can find a working one? Also, why is it that its that these examples are all Dutch? Is it possible that they have them because they went somewhere where locals wore ear rings (the east indies or somewhere on the way?).

Anyway, all I have to say about hair beads, head scarves, earrings, and the lot is: blame Howard Pyle, he screwed it up for all of us.

try this link:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=1616806&partid=1&searchText=Siege+of+Namur&fromADBC=ad&toADBC=ad&numpages=10&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database.aspx&currentPage=1

If that doesnt work go here:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/

Click the research tab and type:

Siege of Namur

[Brit.Privateer]

Thanks POD, they worked. I found the one illustration of the one sailor. It had the title "Traveler from the East Indies" with it. I do wonder what kind of people wore earrings over that that could have influenced these guys. Since it says "traveler" and not sailor, could that mean that this illustration could be exceptional? Just a thought.

[LadyBarbossa]

As I have heard time and time again, this is a Hobby. Simply fun time in one way or another for people. So, people have various ideas of what is a pirate. Only thing you can do is do your best at portraying history by yourself with an encampment or with a crew of your own. If others attend the event that are likeminded, by all means, interact if you wish. Interact nevertheless with anyone. But don't fuss too much about how others portray pirates. It's really like bashing you head against a 24 foot wall of concrete and reenforced titanium.

Each to their own.

And.... just like Michael and Ransom and the others have said. We have indeed had verbal battles like this in the past which, unfortunately, cause a lot of bad tastes and bad blood.

~Lady B

[Cannibal Chrispy]

Hmm 1695, looks like the link provided by PoD clears up the earring debate. Ohh and look at the pretty little BEAD on it.

[hurricane]

Thanks Lady. Couldn't agree more. And if you're trying to convince me that my portrayal of myself is wrong, welcome to a brick wall. It is an individual's hobby, not real life. Some find the fun in figuring out the smallest minutia of a moment in time, others love to explore an another side of themselves, which may be flamboyant and outrageous. It's all good.

I am wondering, however, why this post was ever in Twill since its very title summons up Non Realistic Garb and fantasy. Perhaps it should be moved by the mods, to keep the intent of Twill on target.

[Cuisto Mako]

Hmm 1695, looks like the link provided by PoD clears up the earring debate. Ohh and look at the pretty little BEAD on it.

actually it looks more like a pearl ear pendant so not exactly your typical "gypsy" massive golden earrings that hollywood associate with pirates...havent seen many guys wearing those...