Guns in stupid Canada

[Beowoulf]

The things you do for love!

Typical of Canada's timidity regarding EVERYTHING "manly," the rules about guns are incredibly restrictive.

I want to own a flintlock pistol (or 50) and as far as I can tell from their "Just TRY and find the answer to your question!" gun laws, it has to qualify as "antique" (that is, made before 1898 .... how they arrived at this magical date, who can guess? &^#$%@*&%$ CANADA!!!! )

I was searching the net for antique flintlock pistols and they want thousands and even tens of thousands for them. No Saturday Night Specials, it would seem.

Anyone on this board from CANADA who has found their way through the Canadian gun law maze? Can you help me?

And/or, anyone know of a good source or usable/affordable pre-1898-made flintlock pistols?

Any help will be so much appreciated!

p.s. Have I mentioned how much I hate living in Canada? I had to sell my 3 handguns to move here! That should have been enough of a danger sign right there!

[Gunpowder Gertie]

Beowulf: as it was explained to me by an RCMP officer here in BC.

Flintlock pistols are restricted weapons period. They are classified as handguns. So- they are subject to the same handling restrictions.

You must have a firearm safety certificate, you have to take the course, you cannot fire them except at a certified gunrange. You must keep them in the trunk of your vehicle, when transporting them and can only move them from your home to the gunrange.

Flintlock rifles are different. Particularly pre 1898. Now- does that apply to replicas? I believe it does, if they are exact reproductions. But you may want to clarify that. However- they are not classified as restricted, you don't even need to have the safety course.

I am still trying to find out how it would apply to a theatrical situation, whether a special effects firm, for example, could apply for a special license.

That's what I have so far.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Gunpowder Gertie

[Beowoulf]

Thanks, Gertie! Thanks to you, I like Canada a little bit more! ;-)

[Gunpowder Gertie]

Oh- and Cannons are okay. You just need a permit from the city where you live.

ETA: to shoot them off within the city limits.

So- it's not ALL doom and gloom!

Edited December 12, 2010 by Gunpowder Gertie

[hurricane]

Wow! That's very interesting. In the U.S. (and I speak for Florida only) any reproduction of a period fire arm is considered an antique and as such requires no registration. Funny thing about it is my guns come from Loyalist Arms, which is in Canada. Go figure!

[Gunpowder Gertie]

Aye- I know...I think I'll email Loyalist and see if they can shed any more light on this.

Kind of ironic, isn't it.

The thing about flintlock pistols being delegated as restricted handguns is ridiculous, in my opinion.

[Commodore Swab]

So where does one draw the line between a pistol and a long gun? Take my little blunderbus for example it is a very shortened shoulder stock so short that it could never really be fired from the shoulder.

[Gunpowder Gertie]

So where does one draw the line between a pistol and a long gun? Take my little blunderbus for example it is a very shortened shoulder stock so short that it could never really be fired from the shoulder.

and that's exactly the kind of thing I'm wondering about! Like I say, I think an email t' Loyalist Arms may be in order!

ETA:

Here's the information on their website re: Canadian orders.

A valid FAC/PAL is required to purchase the brass cartridge firearms and percussion firearms. These can be shipped via expedited post insured. Please include a clear copy of your FAC/PAL with your payment, and a telephone number where you can be reached during the day. The firearms transfer will be called in to the Canadian Firearms Center. The CFC will need to contact you before the transfer can proceed. Once the CFC approves the transfer, we can ship. We do not sell firearms to anyone under 18 years of age.

We will not sell swords, knives or bayonets to anyone under 18 years of age without parental consent and waiver.

An FAC/PAL is not required for the flintlock, wheel lock and matchlock muzzle loading firearms except the pistols.

As pistols are considered restricted in Canada, we must ship via courier, and you would require a valid restricted FAC/PAL to complete the transfer.

Please include a clear photocopy of you FAC/PAL with your payment. Please inquire for total shipping costs.

G) We can ship some of our pistols by expedited post if the touchhole is not drilled. It is then considered a non-firing decorator. If you choose to drill the touchhole, bear in mind that you are creating a restricted firearm, and must register it and have the appropriate permits to posses it. Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd will not be held responsible for any criminal charges incurred, as a result of converting a non-firing pistol to fully functioning without applicable permits.

So- it looks like I have 3 options, should I want to purchase a flintlock pistol:

It may be that I pick up one with the touchhole not drilled.Pretty expensive decorator though...

Or - I get my certificate- take the 200 dollar course, join a gun club, and only fire/carry it there, never to join my brethren Due South...

Or- have one of my American friends get it for me..and only use/carry it at events in the States, and pick it up from said friends on the way to said events...

Beowulf- looks like you'd be okay t' get a long rifle from Loyalist Arms though...

and from what I saw on the website, looks like a blunderbus would be classified as a rifle.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Gunpowder Gertie

[Dutchman]

looks like gertie hit my thought about the hole not being bored. An interesting twist on things though. New York city's finest tried to hook one of our folks up a couple of years ago at a tourism convention being worked. Seems a 67cal flint lock pistol is considered a sawed off shotgun!

[Cascabel]

I have always wondered if some of these laws are written so as to be deliberately vague so that they can be left open to interpretation by law enforcement officers and judges based on individual circumstances, or if it is a typical case of legislators writing poorly conceived and badly worded laws about subjects they know absolutely nothing about, and refusing to consult with people that actually know something about the subject in question. Once it is signed into law, it is usually the innocent and well-intentioned people that suffer for it. It happens all the time here in the U.S. also......

>>>>>> Cascabel

[Dutchman]

@ cascabel. having to sit in on many state level meeting issues- YES, all the way around.

[madPete]

Hey Mate

Since black powder weapons are not restricted here in the USA (in most localities) ...

Buy one here and leave it with a friend that goes to events - I know it doesn't work for Canadian events but...

mP

[Beowoulf]

Now CANNONS, are a definitely possibility!!! Though, I read in the maze of laws that Black Powder (itself) comes under the "explosives" laws and when you click the link on the RCMP site, it takes you to some Canadian Justice Department site. (At the point I was swearing too profusely to continue my web search.) ALL I WANT TO DO IS MAKE LOUD BANGS!!! Goddamned do-gooders!!! (Ya can't take a BATH without 2 or 3 DO-GOODERS jumping in with you to tell you how to be doing it properly and safely!!)

Quebec is so goddamned backwards when it comes to modern movements (e.g. the re-enactment stuff or whatever). They are TOTALLY focused on making sure everyone speaks french .. all else is insignificant and even unknown.

Getting friends to hold my pistols in the good ol' USA seems the safest bet ... but, what a pain for the friend/relative. Hmmmm ... maybe if I PAID them for their inconvenience - a yearly stipend.

Some guy (from Florida) on the PiP site had a gold-colored, light-weight (50 pounds) mortar with a price tag of $350 ... man, I would love to own that! Would have bought it, but it was his display. These have been tested at 3 times the recommended powder load.

So where does that leave me with regard to black powder firearms? I have no idea.... lolol Probably just as well anyway ... I don't have any money left!

[Gunpowder Gertie]

Oi! Not to worry! There are a TON of reenactors in Quebec..just not pirates. Hey- check the Flying Canoe Traders site for a list of events.

And they are all black powder users. Ditto here- we do have some black powder cannon/musket folk here in BC too. Just a matter of finding 'em, that's all.

Remember- they WERE going to recreate the Battle Of The Plains of Abraham..until some in the gov't got cold feet, since some very vocal French folk were um...unhappy with the outcome of that battle. And they felt it would be divisive to go ahead.But at one point, it was HUGE. People from all over the world were coming to be a part of it...

I think it will turn out okay for you after all...

here, now...

I dunno.

[michaelsbagley]

I don't know what has changed since I lived in Canada (4 years ago), but basically long muskets were fine, rifles were a gray area for me (but something I didn't care to find out about, being someone mostly focused on pre-rifle earlier periods).... And well Blunderbusses, never cared for them, so it wasn't an issue (for me). Pistols on the other hand were a problem. Canadian laws are harsh and strict on pistols period (modern, antique, reproduction, whatever....).... So while it is more expensive, you'll save yourself a TON of frustration by going with a long musket (un-rifled).

[jendobyns]

Now CANNONS, are a definitely possibility!!! Though, I read in the maze of laws that Black Powder (itself) comes under the "explosives" laws and when you click the link on the RCMP site, it takes you to some Canadian Justice Department site. (At the point I was swearing too profusely to continue my web search.) ALL I WANT TO DO IS MAKE LOUD BANGS!!! Goddamned do-gooders!!! (Ya can't take a BATH without 2 or 3 DO-GOODERS jumping in with you to tell you how to be doing it properly and safely!!) Quebec is so goddamned backwards when it comes to modern movements (e.g. the re-enactment stuff or whatever). They are TOTALLY focused on making sure everyone speaks french .. all else is insignificant and even unknown. Getting friends to hold my pistols in the good ol' USA seems the safest bet ... but, what a pain for the friend/relative. Hmmmm ... maybe if I PAID them for their inconvenience - a yearly stipend.

Some guy (from Florida) on the PiP site had a gold-colored, light-weight (50 pounds) mortar with a price tag of $350 ... man, I would love to own that! Would have bought it, but it was his display. These have been tested at 3 times the recommended powder load.

So where does that leave me with regard to black powder firearms? I have no idea.... lolol Probably just as well anyway ... I don't have any money left!

You might want to talk to some of the RevWar guys. They just had an event up at Ft. George (Niagra on the Lake) and were encouraged to burn as much powder as possible. Getting the powder to Canada from the US was not a problem, taking any home however, was where it got complicated. (We've run into some rather creative methods of getting powder from point A to point B when the rules are unsympathetic).

Oh, my husband just informed me it was Parks Canada who told them what to do to smooth things over getting guns in and out, they could probably help you out with ownership legalities, too. Just ask them what the Canadian rules are for reenactors who want to own whatever it is you wish to buy.

The guys taking their guns up to Canada were told to call all their guns "antique firearms", not black powder, muzzle loader, or anything else. Getting documentation that it belongs to you as personal property will help you avoid duty on it going back and forth between Canada and the U.S.

PM me off list and I can get the "who to contact" details sorted out from the Husband and send them back to you. We have folks coming South all the time from Canada for big events, so we know there are some up there that have gone through all the hoops before. We just don't own a pistol yet, personally, so haven't had to jump that hurdle

[CharityRackham]

Okay honey... Here we go.

The laws, when applied to firearms (replica and other wise) in Canada vary from province to province, township to township, entertainment to collector to 'user'. There are a number of variations depending on your goals and you local officers.

The info copied and pasted above is what is on the webpage for the public eye but there are a number of 'sub laws' that govern use and location. For us in the film industry all guns that come into the prop shop MUST have a weapons expert (certificate acquired after a gun handling course and a presentation fireworks course) present or they MUST be locked up. The courses are cheap and as a group, even cheaper. If you are interested in that route I'd have to know where you live. Feel free to PM if you need to. First gap I get, I'll see who the local is to you.

We have replicas we use for shows and presentations. They were purchased in the States and have been back and forth many times. They use very loud caps and the caps must be a colour visible from a distance. No one seems to mind. They go 'bang' and as long as we are using them where we are hired to do so, all is fine. But again.. That is dependent on your location. Back in Ontario, while I was working with Paramount, our 'weapons' (swords, batleths, etc.) were not considered weapons unless we drew them. Here in BC they are considered weapons if you swing them. Like Cascabel points out... Laws are not made with much actual knowledge and can be open to interpretation. Canons as a general state do fall under more relaxed laws except for.... Yeah... I know... Except for.. Not words you want to hear.... Except for where someone decides they don't. Some officers will use this little sub law that exists that remarks on the length of the barrel and the width of the barrel and whether or not it is display only in public (cement that baby) or to be fired. Also there are bits about if you have been military in the past or.... You can get the whole book for from the government on this but it will still be open to interpretation. For example: The Seattle Seafair Pirates hold a license from the RCMP which gives them permission to bring 'The Duck' over the border and fire their canons in parades, etc, as long as the parade has the insurance covered. There is also another group here who has permission to fire cannons and guns (with blanks rated for public) under certain conditions as their membership is mostly ex military... Etc and so on...

So...

Step one: Decide what you really need to own right down to what you'd like to own.

Step two: Decide what you are planning to do with it.

Step three: Walk into your local police station/ city hall and have a lovely chat, pick up some suggested paper, bring it home and, if necessary, re decide the above steps.

Step four: If you liked the person who handled you make sure you get their card as you want to return to them for any necessary permits IF necessary. If you don't like that person see if you can go to another location or get a different person. Once you have the right words, remember them, write them down, note who said them, and hang onto it.

Misc and optional step: PM me if you plan on using them for entertainment purposes. Next chance I get I'll go by the shop and see if we have as direct a name as we can get for you, based on where you are.

But really. Don't hate the country. We're trying our best to (snicker) keep peace (snort) amongst the population. Really.

But I have never had a weapons issue in the 33 years I have been in this business and much is pretty messed up so as long as you have documentation and follow whatever law you need to follow, then it's cool.

Later and smile, Darn IT!!

[Gunpowder Gertie]

I think under the circumstances I will go with what the local police told me, and what Michael and the others have corroborated.

Since what you are talking about seems to be more replica oriented, and we are talking actual black powder weapons here, and not swords, batleths and the like.

We are also talking about average use, not film use, as well. I stand by the information I have given.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Gunpowder Gertie

[Quartermaster James]

I want to own a flintlock pistol (or 50) and as far as I can tell from their "Just TRY and find the answer to your question!" gun laws, it has to qualify as "antique" (that is, made before 1898 .... how they arrived at this magical date, who can guess? &^#$%@*&%$ CANADA!!!! )

No. You only need to find a genuine antique (i.e.: made before 1898) if you are trying to avoid licensing and registration.

Aye! Gertie was correct in her first reply. Under Canadian law, flintlock pistols are handguns and have to be registered and the owner licensed.

Longarms are different:

The Definition of an Antique

The Criminal Code defines antique firearms as:

• firearms manufactured before 1898 that were not designed or re-designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition, or
• firearms prescribed as antique firearms in the Criminal Code regulations. These are:

Black Powder Reproductions:
of flintlock, wheel-lock or matchlock firearms, other than handguns, manufactured after 1897; (All other reproductions must be registered and owners must have a firearm licence to possess them. For example, reproductions of percussion cap muzzle-loading firearms like American Civil War Enfield and Springfield rifles will be considered firearms and not antiques.)
[ http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/antique-historique-eng.htm - accessed 2010-01-02 ]
Licensing and Registration Requirements
If you own only antique firearms you do not need to:

• get a firearms licence; or
• register any of your antique firearms.

[ http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/antique-historique-eng.htm - accessed 2010-01-02 ]

Hope this helps.

[Gunpowder Gertie]

Aye! Thanks James for clarifying about reproductions too!

It looks like percussion cap weapons are the problem, so -a flintlock that was modified to take percussion caps... antique or even a replica would be subject to registration but a flintlock muzzle loader long rifle reproduction would not. In other words, it would be as acceptable as if it was a real pre 1898 antique.

You just have to be careful when looking at antiques that it wasn't a flintlock that was modified to take percussion caps after 1808 when they became widely used.

I think I'm going to have someone in the States hold my flintlock pistol for me, when I get one. Seems easier, since I wouldn't be able to shoot it up here anyway..unless I was at a gun range.

[Quartermaster James]

<snip> I wouldn't be able to shoot it up here anyway..unless I was at a gun range.

Truth be told, despite what you may have been led to believe, we're not all sitting here south of yall shooting in our backyards all day long.

I have to go to the black powder range, or other permitted areas, to shoot too.

[Gunpowder Gertie]

You know, I remember back in the day, spending my summers on a family members farm. The guy across the way had old muskets, and we would go and he would shoot cans off the back fence..he had bullet molds and made his own bullets. It was very cool..or as we kids said then pioneer!

But I guess what I am saying is that as a restricted handgun, I would have no ability to wear it, carry it, or shoot it, unless it was kept in the trunk of the car, transported and used only at the gun range.,not at any kind of event.

The thing is, I know you guys can carry them. I also know you have to shoot at a black powder facility.

but here it is already a restricted weapon, which makes it even more limiting, I think.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Gunpowder Gertie

[CharityRackham]

Ummm.. Ok?

I used bladed weapons as a comparison between Ontario and BC laws. I am aware of the fact that they are not guns. With those variations you never know what other variations there may be until you talk to the right people. That's all.

I doublechecked back to Beowoulf's original post and I see no mention of whether or not they would be used in an entertainment capacity and since we have all recently helped a member of the pub out on a birthday party plan when he isn't a birthday party planner in the first place, anything is possible. Hence the request for clarification. Who knows. One day a family member may show up and request Beowoulf do something funky at their wedding.

Black powder 'pan' weapons only require the appropriate presentation fireworks permit. Depending on the weapon it does usually require all the paperwork but it is fireable. All of this is available to anyone (entertainment industry or not) but falls under entertainment and show/production paperwork. Even reenactment groups have to go through it.. I've seen the paperwork for reenactment groups here and in Ontario. If they present anywhere there is a serious of 'things' they go through. And it is different from spot to spot... So.. Yeah.. You want to fire it you may have to go through an entertainment path. No biggie.

And re the inquiries of Loyalist Arms. Like Crossbows (yes I know that is a piece of archery equipment not black powder), weapons of this type (black powder) can be sold in Canada (with the right business registration) but still requires certain legal hoops in order to 'use' or 'display'. It is up to the purchaser to make sure all of that is in order. There is a reason Fort York had to cement up some of their cannons even though they were not the ones purchased to fire. I use crossbows as an example as some provinces have it declared as a concealable weapon as many of them can break down and be placed in a coat/bag/etc. In those provinces you can only shoot on a gun rang even though you technically own a bow. Now.. In BC there is a loop hole for bows. If you are on 'your' private property and pointed towards your house you may fire it legally. There is no stipulation for crossbows in this loophole yet in BC you can not bring a crossbow to the archery rang and fire it legally. Your BC Archery Association membership states that they will not cover you on the insurance if you do so as you are breaking the law. BUT you can't stand in front of your house and fire a gun towards it. Hmmmm...

This exists all across this country. The ups and downs. So the only way to do this is make sure you have all possible routes covered and you consider all avenues and then pick the one that suits you. I have worked with many on set/stage/public gigs who forget that a weapon (loaded or not, sheathed or not) is still a weapon. I for one am happy that these laws exist. I'm unhappy that so many of these folks have made it tough for us, but it is set up that if anything stupid happens, we are covered and since, practically every day Martin and/or I are around weapons of many types... Being covered is good.

And... If you look at the gun competitions that happen in Canada, not on a gun range (Aldergrove Fairdays 2008/2009 for example - held in a public park), there are a number of ways to shoot other then a gun range. Hell... The gun freedoms are greater in Abottsford then they are in Vancouver for obvious reasons. Population and property. But you can do it.. You just have to prove to them that you are responsible and are willing to jump through hoops they feel are necessary. When we deal with replicas we follow all the rules, all events know what is on our costumes and we check ahead as to what is permitted under their insurance. Did that back at Fort York in Toronto and did that here at Fort Langley. We may use replica 'cap guns' for our public stuff but we still have to pre show up and pre fire them in the space (volume is the big concern and that the guns are safe) and let the site (or insurance company) inspect them. DId that just a few weeks ago for a gig in February. We still have to use the right caps and keep the guns safe with straps over the gun so it can't be pulled from the holster easily but hey.... These suckers are loud and can cause damage is misused so we have to do what we have to do. We also have to show 'training' with the cast.

The post seriously was only intended as an encouragement to get advice from those affected the most. Those who hold the laws in that area.

Hey.. Here's another idea. Bring a few pictures to the station and ask them if these count. Tell them the photos are of ones on the internet (or wherever) and see what they do. If their eyes go real big, smile politely and say 'Just thinking of getting back into reenacting. Have you had a bad experience with these? Tell me about it..' Lean over the counter, bat your eyes, and see what happens... Actually.. If it is a guy you may want to leave the eye batting out... Just a thought...

If you need me, you can just PM me. If you have Skype all the better. We can chat.

Oh.. AND...

Welcome to Canada. It's not as bad as we make it out to be. It's just a little passive.

And we're sorry. We don't mean to. Honest.

[CharityRackham]

..... I stand by the information I have given.

BTW. There's nothing wrong with ANY of the information given here by anyone. Being in a society of interpretation and having to deal with that on many levels in getting permits and permissions for a number of things, the more advice given and gotten, the better. I've dealt with police all over the US and Canada and it is never the same no matter where you are. I am just hoping that there is a enough info that a great decision can be made that suits his needs.

On that note: jendobyns. I re-read your post. Sounds like your friends are along the same line as the Seafair pirates. Might be a good move to connect Beowoulf with them. If they are doing this nice and smooth in Niagara, and the Seattle boys are doing it nice and smooth out here, you may have hit on a source for a constant.

I also doublechecked our paperwork in the files, on presentations and productions.

Bringing weapons, into BC, to use for competition, demonstration, and/or production, must comply to appropriate shipping laws and used only at or for the purpose approved for. If the weapon is traveling it can not travel with any accessories that makes the weapon able to fire. All items of this nature must travel separately. (there is note of a see chart but I don't seem to have the chart. Might be at the shop) Anything that constitutes a weapon must travel out of reach of the driver and any passengers and must be packed so that it is not easily accessible.

Black powder is illegal for possession in BC but can be acquired and used in the province of British Columbia with a fireworks license. (again a note is made for another sheet - Looks like this copy dates back a few years so I may have tossed the additional papers with plans to replace them but haven't yet) The device can only be used for any explosive effect or use and, if required, can only be used with a projectile with the appropriate licensing. Projectiles can include, shot, balls, metal objects, wads, wood, glass and must be appropriate to the weapon or effects item used.

There's a whole book on this. Don't have it but I know it's at the shop and provided by the union. Sounds like both of these groups figured it out. I know Seattle brings their powder with them and technically, according to this, that's not permitted. Could be the RCMP pre licence thing... But they did it... Good on them.

Ok. Have to go to bed. Tomorrow we should find out whether or not the shop is moving and I should readjust my schedule back to normal... ish...

Later! Hope that helps.

[Gunpowder Gertie]

Again- this thread has to do with purchasing a flintlock pistol, which you haven't seemed to reference.

And the laws in Canada concerning that.

Are you saying that you personally have taken any black powder weapons over the border? Or a flintlock pistol? NOT cap guns or replicas.Or swords. or crossbows.

black powder long rifles or flintlock pistols?

Do they shoot flintlock pistols at the event in Abbotsford?

What exactly is your experience in using black powder weapons at your Renfest?

Or at any event.

Quoting all this doesn't really do much good, if it is not relevant in response to the original post.

Beowulf, I have been in touch with a friend of mine here in Vancouver who is part of a cannon crew. He'll be able to answer my questions regarding that, and I'll pass them along as soon as I find out.

Between my contact with the RCMP and someone who is part of an actual crew, I figure I'll get pretty much most of the info I require.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Gunpowder Gertie