Would all Pirates have Blades?

[Korisios]

A while ago I asked:

Would every Pirate/Bucaneer/Sailor/Marine have had a sword of some sort?

You might think that the most sailors would do with a big nife or some sort of machetee and bording axe...

then Quartermaster James answered:

Would every sailor have a sword?

No. And probably not a large knife either. Rigging knife, yes.

Boarding axes and non-officer's swords were ship's property.

Buccaneers? Aye, knives and machetes are documented.

Pyrates? Well now, should we move this over to Twill?

So I moved it over...

To start the diverense between Pirates and Bucaneers is still a bit blur for me...

Bucaneers do still life most of the time on land in the Caribbean and do their thing more or less under the protection of some authority , while Pirates are the real outlaws and do simply life from steeling, plundering, entering and such?

And therefore Pirates down obay any rule and so carry any kind of weapon they could lay there hands on?

Am I close?

[1stMate Matt]

As stated above...Swords were most often ships property. Rarely did every person have claim to one. Swords broke very often. Thats why you see so many large knives.

If I had to state a blade that every pirate would of or should have had would be a small blade that would have been more for rope cutting then anything else.

On that note...why dont we extend this questions a little. What do you think the cutlass to sheath ratio was. Officers almost always had sheaths but beyond that I cant say.

[Daniel]

A while ago I asked:

Would every Pirate/Bucaneer/Sailor/Marine have had a sword of some sort?

You might think that the most sailors would do with a big nife or some sort of machetee and bording axe...

then Quartermaster James answered:

Would every sailor have a sword?

No. And probably not a large knife either. Rigging knife, yes.

Boarding axes and non-officer's swords were ship's property.

Buccaneers? Aye, knives and machetes are documented.

Pyrates? Well now, should we move this over to Twill?

So I moved it over...

To start the diverense between Pirates and Bucaneers is still a bit blur for me...

Bucaneers do still life most of the time on land in the Caribbean and do their thing more or less under the protection of some authority , while Pirates are the real outlaws and do simply life from steeling, plundering, entering and such?

And therefore Pirates down obay any rule and so carry any kind of weapon they could lay there hands on?

Am I close?

Certainly every sailor had a knife, and that would go for pirates too. I'm not salty enough to know the difference between a rigging knife and other knives, but yes, knives were essential for working chip. By the mid-19th century, it was common practice for merchant captains, like Robert Waterman, to break the points off of the sailors' knives to make them less useful in combat in case of mutiny; I don't know if this was yet the case in the 17th and 18th centuries. Thus a new pirate might have a blunt-tipped knife until he had a chance to replace it with a pointy one.

I wouldn't say that every single pirate would have had a sword, but certainly most would have. The primary sources are rife with references to pirates carrying swords and using them to beat, intimidate, or kill prisoners. One of Bonnet's victims reported, "as soon as they came up the shrouds, they clapped all hands to their cutlashes." 19th century Cuban and Latin American pirates are almost universally reported to be carrying cutlasses. Kidd's men beat up sailors with their cutlasses. Exquemelin says that L'Ollonois used a cutlass to kill prisoners.

It is true that merchant and navy captains kept the arms locked up when not in battle, but I've never seen any evidence that pirates did the same, and the articles making each man responsible for keeping his pistol in working order, and giving the pirate who first sighted a prize free choice of any small arm aboard the captured ship, strongly suggests that pirates kept their own weapons with them.

Buccaneers only occasionally had any letters of marque, largely in the 1660s when Modyford was governor of Jamaica and d'Ogeron in Tortuga. Even then, they were hardly scrupulous about following the rules, so the weapons they carried would have been determined by practicality and availability, not by any legal rules. They seem to have relied pretty heavily on firearms, especially the famous "buccaneer gun," but that doesn't mean they didn't use blades too if they could get them.

I've seen way more information on boarding axes in the secondary sources than in the primary sources; I can't say how many pirates would have had them.

When I get home, I'll pull out Benerson Little and give you some more information.

[callenish gunner]

Swords/cutlasses/machetes/cane knives were fairly common ...the use of firearms had limited usefulness yes they could fire at the decks of opposing ships or opponents the pirates came upon once they landed but the rate of fire and the range made their total effectiveness finite. Once boarding actions began a cutlass is a much more effective weapon once the first volley is fired.

The breaking of the tips of knives was far less common than you might think, the notation of this in some books was because it was uncommon not because it was a common practice. Robert "Bully"Waterman and his first mate "Black" Douglas were put on trial for abusing their crew and killing at least one ill seaman while trying to break the clipper ship speed records of voyages from New York to San Francisco. He had reason to fear mutiny. Later it did become a law aboard American Merchant vessels in the Mid 1860's but the roles of sailors was changing as well

Scabbards have virtually no use aboard ship so cutlasses were kept in racks or in a barrel for use as needed. There are photos of wrecks having cutlasses hanging over the cannons along the rail so that they could be grabbed when the boarding action began.

Edited March 17, 2010 by callenish gunner

[Fox]

Two small points to add:

Rigging knives are, as a rule, pointless. Not with the tips broken off to prevent stab wounds, but made without a point for practicality (what use is a point on a rigging knife?)

Just been reading a piracy trial account which mentions the pirates cutting up oars to use as cudgels in lieu of any other weapons, so no, not all pirates carried swords.

[oderlesseye]

Most have AKA'a And Machetes today.. ~

[MorganTyre]

Two small points to add:

Rigging knives are, as a rule, pointless. Not with the tips broken off to prevent stab wounds, but made without a point for practicality (what use is a point on a rigging knife?)

Just been reading a piracy trial account which mentions the pirates cutting up oars to use as cudgels in lieu of any other weapons, so no, not all pirates carried swords.

I'll add to that that rigging knives are generally very thick along the back. The most common way of cutting line of any size is to lay it across something, rest the knife down on it, and then strike the knife with the palm or a marlinspike. If you are good you should be able to cleave right through the 99% of the line without touching the spar or rail beneath. And as someone who does it regularly, I can say that it's about the cleanest and most efficient way to cut even modern lines. The thick blade is necessary to take the abuse.

[Daniel]

Would one ever use a rigging knife to pry open a stubborn knot? And if so, would a sharp point be easier to slip under a tight loop for that purpose?

[callenish gunner]

A marlin spike was supposed to be used to pry open a knot, it was the second most common tool carried by sailors. A knife could cut the line or just nick it to weaken it, so it would fray at that point.

[Fox]

What Hugh said. Plus you'd risk slicing your fingers open as you wriggled the blade about.

[Daniel]

Well, there's another thing learned for me. I thought marlinespikes were used to unlay and splice cable; never knew they were used to untie knots. But it makes sense.

In other news, I did consult Benerson Little, but he doesn't really say much about how many pirates had blades. Mostly he just discusses the different kinds available: chiefly cutlasses, but also some spadroons, broadswords, and the occasional smallsword, hunting hanger, or scimitar.

[Korisios]

Yeah thanks guys, I am also learming a lot here.

[Fox]

Well, there's another thing learned for me. I thought marlinespikes were used to unlay and splice cable;

They are, but they have a million other uses. You might also use a fid for either task.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Foxe

[Jack Roberts]

I like fids!

[Mission]

I was just wondering about the commonality of swords, given that a pirate's goal was intimidation rather than battle - especially close quarters combat. (This doesn't really answer that completely, but it makes several good points.)

(And I would like to add that fids would make excellent bite sticks for sailors confronted with pre-anesthesia surgery.)

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I was just wondering about the commonality of swords, given that a pirate's goal was intimidation rather than battle - especially close quarters combat. (This doesn't really answer that completely, but it makes several good points.)

(And I would like to add that fids would make excellent bite sticks for sailors confronted with pre-anesthesia surgery.)

I quote Gordingly (I know he has some not so good theories but he knows still lots of things) he has said/written someting like this:"... pirates would yell and wag their swords to terrorise the ship that they were capturing, trying to frighten enemy's crew to surender" so that was why the swords were needed...

Edited February 21, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I was just wondering about the commonality of swords, given that a pirate's goal was intimidation rather than battle - especially close quarters combat. (This doesn't really answer that completely, but it makes several good points.)

(And I would like to add that fids would make excellent bite sticks for sailors confronted with pre-anesthesia surgery.)

I add that even that modern idea of pirates as Swashbucklers is not very accurate and they indeed favored firearms rather than close quarters combat, they were some bloody close combats...like the classic final battle of Bbeard... or one Worley's figts....

Foxe should give some period papers/other stuff that would show how much The crews made ​​the resistance against pirates in reality.. I bet that there is not many of raports and usually they would just surender... but since I have underestimated other stuff like pirate ships I may be wrong..

Edited February 21, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Brit.Privateer]

Well, to start getting at this question, lets gets some context from the period (note, that I am mostly dealy with 1680-1740 here, especially the 1690-1728 part of it)

1677, the English Ordnance Departmant decrees issuing one sword or hanger for every five to six men. Compare that to the number of firearms issued to ships in the English Navy in 1684. First rates (100 guns) received 150 muskets and sixth rates of 24 guns or so received 30 muskets (this all roughly works out to a little above one musket per gun). Mind you, this musket count does not include the muskets issued to marines onboard. Pistols were issued 40 to a first rate and 6 for a sixth rate. These were guidelines generally held to through the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century. While what was issued and what was actually onboard a ship could be different, these allowances do give us a point of reference as to amount of guns seen onboard a Navy ship. A sixth rate ship may have only been allowed six pistols according to regulations, but I could see a captain obtaining more than that, especially if the captain comissioned the arms from a gunsmith themselves instead of the ordnance department armoury. (sources for all this is Gilkerson's Boarders Away I and II) But how many more pistols would they have had?

If the navy thought that for this sixth rate that 6 pistols were okay, they had to have a reason for it. Maybe it was the fact that since large scale purchasing of military grade flintlock firearms by a central government had only begun in the 17th century (the big beginnings for this appear to be James II reign when he was assembling a new standing army, though there are other small instances of it occuring before that). Adapting and eager use of new military technologies didn't move as fast as it does today. Plus, we must also take into consideration that not every man was going to board, so you don't have to have close combat weapons for every single man (which the sword and pistol were). Also, I've seen it argued that the British preferred a strategy of hitting enemies from a distance rather than boarding, but I want to see that mindset verified for this time period through some kind of documentation before agreeing with that (it kind of goes off on that whole "Spanish Armada" thing). So, to answer the question of how many more pistols, I think a captain could double that number so could have 12. But still, 12 pistols on a small navy vessel. Same could go with swords onboard, maybe a captain would option to have more, closer to the one for every five men.

But back to how this applies to pirates. Where did pirates get their weaponry? From the merchants they robbed, from the ship they started on, and sometimes from the merchants that traded with them at places like New Providence, the mouth of the Sierra Leone river off of Africa, and St. Mary's on Madagascar. I can't account for the merchants because...it's illegal activity, they won't have many records in the first place. But, the merchants they were robbing, I don't think they would have many swords. Muskets are going to be common enough, because they can keep an enemy at a distance and can be used for hunting. If you're a French merchant, there was even requirements from the government that you carry a few for the purpose of depositing them in French colonies so they could be properly armed. I'm not sure that they would invest too much in close combat weapons. I could see them investing in a few. So, lets say the crew was about seven to a dozen men onboard ship (a common sight during this era). I wouldn't see it unreasonable to for a captain to invest in between four and eight swords.

Now, for the pirates themselves. Now, on quite a few occasions, pirates preffered to board by boats. The key thing here is that not the whole crew would be going on the ship. You only needed enough to combat the merchant crew. It's a concept that goes back to the Navy, not everyone is going to need a close-combat weapon. But also, having a good amount of weaponry was good for intimidating your opponent and good if one of your weapons breaks down in the middle of combat.

If I had to give percentages of the pirate crews with swords, since there are so many variables at play here, I would have to give a generic between 33% and 66% (and mind you, I don't even like those number, because, some crows might have less than 33%, such as the Worley story where it was 8 pirates all with muskets only, if that can be relied on). It all depends on how the crew got started, in what state it got started, how long the crew had been together, how successful they had been, how many men would they trust to bear arms (if there are slaves aboard being used only for manual labor for instance), and the personal preferences of the pirates themselves. Basically, the number of swords would be notably higher than merchants, and even navy ships possibly, but I don't think every pirate would have one.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Brit.Privateer

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

I would think most carried blades, pistols fired one shot, then were useless, even with a brace of them, you would still be defenseless in the melee that was boarding combat... though if they were hard to come by, they probably stole them when the got the chance... though pistols could also be used as clubs, and boarding axes were also in use.

[Brit.Privateer]

I would think most carried blades, pistols fired one shot, then were useless, even with a brace of them, you would still be defenseless in the melee that was boarding combat... though if they were hard to come by, they probably stole them when the got the chance... though pistols could also be used as clubs, and boarding axes were also in use.

Well, a ship boarding combat was not limited to swordplay or those with swords. A boarding action could get real nasty. You used anything you could get your hands on as a weapon. Traditional weapons are used of course, and then you get into boarding axes, boarding pikes, and then tools turned to mayhem. A handspike for instance makes an excellent club. Sometimes it would come down to wrestling your opponnent according to Bennerson Little in Sea Rovers Practice. While not perfect (it is a typical hollywood 'everyone board' situation), the final combat scene in the Master and Commander movie gets pretty close. One point really sticks out to me in there, a Frenchmen is strangling a british sailor with his arm, and yells for a fellow British sailor for help. His friend tosses him a pistol, leaving himself with no weapons, and then gets pistoled by a young Frenchmen hiding somewhere. While over the long term of a boarding a cutlass was the preferred weapon, a firearm (especially a pistol) would be preffered for killing someone, since its just a trigger pull away from doing away with your oppenent. Also, as you say, the pistol becomes a club, and so can the musket.

But, as I pointed out before, there are the factors of lack of skill among these guys using swords (uncommon to say the least that these guys would have training with a sword), the availability of swords (like I said in the last email, it's all about the circumstances to say how many swords would be around), and the fact that it's rare that the whole crew would board or need to board. Those typical pirate movie boarding actions where the whole crew swings over are and fights a large enemy crew are very rare. Sending a smaller well armed part of the crew was more common. Trying to send the whole crew could be inconvenient, and sending in part also meant that you could send in more men later if necessary. Like I said before, you're not going to need to send the whole crew when going after seven to a dozen merchant crewmembers. Heck, sometimes even outnumbered pirates can still subdue a merchant crew due to firepower and the element of surprise. Don't forget, pirates didn't like taking too far an unecessary risk, and if battle could be avoided to save time, powder, and potential death or injury in battle - they would.

Saying that a lot of pirates or many of the pirates would be armed with swords is too generalizing of a statement. I think a more accurate and inclusive statement would be that pirates would obtain arms whenever and wherever they could so they could be heavily armed and ready for any possible engagement and more easily intimidate their opponents into surrender. This would frequently include swords, but a firearm (in particular the musket) would more likely be a higher priority to have since it had more utility, would be found more frequently, and could kill from a distance.

[Mission]

Where did pirates get their weaponry? From the merchants they robbed, from the ship they started on, and sometimes from the merchants that traded with them at places like New Providence, the mouth of the Sierra Leone river off of Africa, and St. Mary's on Madagascar. I can't account for the merchants because...it's illegal activity, they won't have many records in the first place. But, the merchants they were robbing, I don't think they would have many swords. Muskets are going to be common enough, because they can keep an enemy at a distance and can be used for hunting.

...

If I had to give percentages of the pirate crews with swords, since there are so many variables at play here, I would have to give a generic between 33% and 66% (and mind you, I don't even like those number, because, some crows might have less than 33%, such as the Worley story where it was 8 pirates all with muskets only, if that can be relied on). It all depends on how the crew got started, in what state it got started, how long the crew had been together, how successful they had been, how many men would they trust to bear arms (if there are slaves aboard being used only for manual labor for instance), and the personal preferences of the pirates themselves. Basically, the number of swords would be notably higher than merchants, and even navy ships possibly, but I don't think every pirate would have one.

That was kind of my thinking. Occasionally we get listings of a seaman's effects around here. I wonder how many had swords among them?

Sending a smaller well armed part of the crew was more common. Trying to send the whole crew could be inconvenient, and sending in part also meant that you could send in more men later if necessary. Like I said before, you're not going to need to send the whole crew when going after seven to a dozen merchant crewmembers. Heck, sometimes even outnumbered pirates can still subdue a merchant crew due to firepower and the element of surprise.

Interesting point! After reading it I thought it made so much sense from a tactical POV. Why send the whole crew? They'll end up getting in each other's way.

Don't forget, pirates didn't like taking too far an unecessary risk, and if battle could be avoided to save time, powder, and potential death or injury in battle - they would.

How often we seem to want to forget that. (And Hollywood does its very best to help us. )

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I would think most carried blades, pistols fired one shot, then were useless, even with a brace of them, you would still be defenseless in the melee that was boarding combat... though if they were hard to come by, they probably stole them when the got the chance... though pistols could also be used as clubs, and boarding axes were also in use.

Well, a ship boarding combat was not limited to swordplay or those with swords. A boarding action could get real nasty. You used anything you could get your hands on as a weapon. Traditional weapons are used of course, and then you get into boarding axes, boarding pikes, and then tools turned to mayhem. A handspike for instance makes an excellent club. Sometimes it would come down to wrestling your opponnent according to Bennerson Little in Sea Rovers Practice. While not perfect (it is a typical hollywood 'everyone board' situation), the final combat scene in the Master and Commander movie gets pretty close. One point really sticks out to me in there, a Frenchmen is strangling a british sailor with his arm, and yells for a fellow British sailor for help. His friend tosses him a pistol, leaving himself with no weapons, and then gets pistoled by a young Frenchmen hiding somewhere. While over the long term of a boarding a cutlass was the preferred weapon, a firearm (especially a pistol) would be preffered for killing someone, since its just a trigger pull away from doing away with your oppenent. Also, as you say, the pistol becomes a club, and so can the musket.

But, as I pointed out before, there are the factors of lack of skill among these guys using swords (uncommon to say the least that these guys would have training with a sword), the availability of swords (like I said in the last email, it's all about the circumstances to say how many swords would be around), and the fact that it's rare that the whole crew would board or need to board. Those typical pirate movie boarding actions where the whole crew swings over are and fights a large enemy crew are very rare. Sending a smaller well armed part of the crew was more common. Trying to send the whole crew could be inconvenient, and sending in part also meant that you could send in more men later if necessary. Like I said before, you're not going to need to send the whole crew when going after seven to a dozen merchant crewmembers. Heck, sometimes even outnumbered pirates can still subdue a merchant crew due to firepower and the element of surprise. Don't forget, pirates didn't like taking too far an unecessary risk, and if battle could be avoided to save time, powder, and potential death or injury in battle - they would.

Saying that a lot of pirates or many of the pirates would be armed with swords is too generalizing of a statement. I think a more accurate and inclusive statement would be that pirates would obtain arms whenever and wherever they could so they could be heavily armed and ready for any possible engagement and more easily intimidate their opponents into surrender. This would frequently include swords, but a firearm (in particular the musket) would more likely be a higher priority to have since it had more utility, would be found more frequently, and could kill from a distance.

I know that documentaries are often quite bad but this clip says much

http://www.history.c...pirate-firearms

**** those American ads there

Edited February 22, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I would think most carried blades, pistols fired one shot, then were useless, even with a brace of them, you would still be defenseless in the melee that was boarding combat... though if they were hard to come by, they probably stole them when the got the chance... though pistols could also be used as clubs, and boarding axes were also in use.

pirates (if desperate) would use fists and kicks or bites to figth... yes seriosly

Edited February 22, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Well, to start getting at this question, lets gets some context from the period (note, that I am mostly dealy with 1680-1740 here, especially the 1690-1728 part of it)

1677, the English Ordnance Departmant decrees issuing one sword or hanger for every five to six men. Compare that to the number of firearms issued to ships in the English Navy in 1684. First rates (100 guns) received 150 muskets and sixth rates of 24 guns or so received 30 muskets (this all roughly works out to a little above one musket per gun). Mind you, this musket count does not include the muskets issued to marines onboard. Pistols were issued 40 to a first rate and 6 for a sixth rate. These were guidelines generally held to through the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century. While what was issued and what was actually onboard a ship could be different, these allowances do give us a point of reference as to amount of guns seen onboard a Navy ship. A sixth rate ship may have only been allowed six pistols according to regulations, but I could see a captain obtaining more than that, especially if the captain comissioned the arms from a gunsmith themselves instead of the ordnance department armoury. (sources for all this is Gilkerson's Boarders Away I and II) But how many more pistols would they have had?

If the navy thought that for this sixth rate that 6 pistols were okay, they had to have a reason for it. Maybe it was the fact that since large scale purchasing of military grade flintlock firearms by a central government had only begun in the 17th century (the big beginnings for this appear to be James II reign when he was assembling a new standing army, though there are other small instances of it occuring before that). Adapting and eager use of new military technologies didn't move as fast as it does today. Plus, we must also take into consideration that not every man was going to board, so you don't have to have close combat weapons for every single man (which the sword and pistol were). Also, I've seen it argued that the British preferred a strategy of hitting enemies from a distance rather than boarding, but I want to see that mindset verified for this time period through some kind of documentation before agreeing with that (it kind of goes off on that whole "Spanish Armada" thing). So, to answer the question of how many more pistols, I think a captain could double that number so could have 12. But still, 12 pistols on a small navy vessel. Same could go with swords onboard, maybe a captain would option to have more, closer to the one for every five men.

But back to how this applies to pirates. Where did pirates get their weaponry? From the merchants they robbed, from the ship they started on, and sometimes from the merchants that traded with them at places like New Providence, the mouth of the Sierra Leone river off of Africa, and St. Mary's on Madagascar. I can't account for the merchants because...it's illegal activity, they won't have many records in the first place. But, the merchants they were robbing, I don't think they would have many swords. Muskets are going to be common enough, because they can keep an enemy at a distance and can be used for hunting. If you're a French merchant, there was even requirements from the government that you carry a few for the purpose of depositing them in French colonies so they could be properly armed. I'm not sure that they would invest too much in close combat weapons. I could see them investing in a few. So, lets say the crew was about seven to a dozen men onboard ship (a common sight during this era). I wouldn't see it unreasonable to for a captain to invest in between four and eight swords.

Now, for the pirates themselves. Now, on quite a few occasions, pirates preffered to board by boats. The key thing here is that not the whole crew would be going on the ship. You only needed enough to combat the merchant crew. It's a concept that goes back to the Navy, not everyone is going to need a close-combat weapon. But also, having a good amount of weaponry was good for intimidating your opponent and good if one of your weapons breaks down in the middle of combat.

If I had to give percentages of the pirate crews with swords, since there are so many variables at play here, I would have to give a generic between 33% and 66% (and mind you, I don't even like those number, because, some crows might have less than 33%, such as the Worley story where it was 8 pirates all with muskets only, if that can be relied on). It all depends on how the crew got started, in what state it got started, how long the crew had been together, how successful they had been, how many men would they trust to bear arms (if there are slaves aboard being used only for manual labor for instance), and the personal preferences of the pirates themselves. Basically, the number of swords would be notably higher than merchants, and even navy ships possibly, but I don't think every pirate would have one.

I have to say that we must remenber that there is differense between those pirates who plundered fishing vessels in boston and those like B. Robets or E. England who were more succesful, so weaponry like clothing or ship's size would tell how succesful pirates were...

Edited February 22, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Brit.Privateer]

I have to say that we must remenber that there is differense between those pirates who plundered fishing vessels in boston and those like B. Robets or E. England who were more succesful, so weaponry like clothing or ship's size would tell how succesful pirates were...

Ah, you see, that's what I was talking about, it's all about context and circumstances.

As for swords in seaman's effects, not sure. I've yet to encounter one, plus I am not sure how it would go over with a merchant captain for the crew to be arming themselves. He did often keep the weapons intended for ship defense locked up, so I don't think he would take to a common crewmember bringing one onboard.

As for that History channel clip, they got quite a bit of that right (surprisingly) especially the first half. But, the firearms they had were all models after our time period, with the exception of the pistols that could be from as early as about 1720, but it's hard to say.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Brit.Privateer