An Historic Opinion

[Mission]

I spent all day on planes and I was reading Nathaniel Boteler[butler]'s Dialogues, first published in 1685. The edition I'm reading was edited by W. G. Perrin and published by the Navy Records Society in 1929. He had this to say which I thought you might find interesting.

"Admiral. Since we have proceeded thus far in discourse about these fiery weapons that are most profitably portable in ships of war, it will be fit to consider of the rest of them, and of all such arms in general, as you hold most proper and useful in this nature.

Captain. As for such fiery weapons as are managed by single men, and to be used above the decks, I know none fitter than the ordinary musket, which is now in use; it being not only of good execution, and of a good reach, but manageable enough by any ordinary man, whose station is to be upon the hatches. As for such men who are to be betwixt decks, or in the round-house, or under the half decks or forecastle, there can no better nor more useful weapon be put into their hands, than the short carbines; and especially being well breeched and full bored, and fitted with good firelocks. For these may safely be laid down in any place, upon any occasion, and as readily taken up. And when they are fitted with belts, even those men which are appointed to handle the sails may wear and use them, without neglect of their other services.

Admiral. What other fiery weapons would you propound for the use of sea soldiers?

Captain. Truly, there is need of none other, as long as men fight either in their own ship, or not board and board with the enemy. But then I confess it is requirable to use a fierce weapon that may be managed with one hand only; and

__

such are the ordinary pistols, and especially the French horse-pistols: the which I should chiefly recommend at any boarding or close fights on ship aboard.

...

And therefore, for my part, I shall take no further care for one [body armor or helmet], than only to have a convenient skulled montero [footnote 1: A Spanish hunting cap with ear flaps] on my head; a good buff-jerkin on my back; a half pike or battle axe in one hand; a tried pistol in the other; with a good short sword by my side; to perform any[thing] requirable at any close fight or boarding." (Boteler, p. 261-2)

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Carbines with dragoon slings aloft, and horse pistols aboard ships in the GAoP. Hmmm... and a good many folks pooh-pooh'd me on these very things not too long ago. Good find. Thanx.

Bo

[Mission]

Well, I am also reading The Barber Surgeon's Mate of the 16th and 17th Century by Rory W. McCreadie and he has this to say (which sort of supports something I've said repeatedly about the dogged need for absolute proof of stuff in your kit):

"With all the information we have it is easy to re-enact a high-ranking Surgeon or a lowly Barber with little or no surgery skills, but most surgeons were adequate, if not highly trained, we could say, the norm. The re-enactor should use the information in the same way as a 17th century surgeon would. With the tools and knowledge at his disposal, he would take an use what he saw and could afford. By doing this we could end up with re-enactors fighting (verbally, I hope!!) over techniques, skills and the whys and wherefores of our trade. 'He thinks he's right, I know I'm right'; think of the cameos and fun for all. It goes on today as it did in the 17th century." (McCrory, p. 35)

(Note: many surgeons argued with each other extensively over procedures in their texts. But the general point still stands. I doubt even 1/10 of 1% of the people during period were captured in pictures and manuscripts. That leaves room for a LOT of variance.)

[Hawkyns]

Interesting. Does he at any point specify what he means by carbine? That is one of the most widely used terms in the 17th and 18th c, and means just about anything other than a full musket. I've seen it used to describe anything from a coaching blunderbuss with a 14 inch barrel, really a pistol with a shoulder stock, to a musket with a 42 inch barrel.

Based on the date, I would guess that he is referring to the dragoon carbine, similar to the Littlecote Carbine, 30 inch barrels and about .64 calibre. Note that in in the following pictures, the dragoon sling is a clip hook that attaches to a single ring on the side of the stock opposite the breech. This allows the carbine to be reversed to allow loading on horseback without taking the weapon off.

http://www.royalarmouries.org.uk/learning/online-learning/littlecote-house-module/explore-littlecote-house-without-flash/great-hall-in-littlecote-house/english-civil-wars-flintlock-carbines-blunderbusses

Hawkyns

[michaelsbagley]

To add to this, if one looks through the book "Small Arms of the British Forces in America 1664 - 1815" by De Witt Bailey, there is two original carbines from the 1680s or 1690s (William-ite era), one is labeled a "short carbine" and has a 32 inch barrel, the "long carbine" has a 36 inch barrel(?, going from memory, so it might have been 39 inches). I've also seen blunderbusses specifically mentioned alongside carbines in inventories for soldier's gear, so I would imagine if Mission's quoted text would most likely mean carbines and not blunderbusses, as they are quite clearly separated in other inventories and accounts of that period I have read. While I doubt the terms "short" and "long" carbines always mean carbines with barrels of those exact lengths, I think it would be most prudent to interpret the terms as meaning close to those lengths.

Interesting. Does he at any point specify what he means by carbine? That is one of the most widely used terms in the 17th and 18th c, and means just about anything other than a full musket. I've seen it used to describe anything from a coaching blunderbuss with a 14 inch barrel, really a pistol with a shoulder stock, to a musket with a 42 inch barrel.

Based on the date, I would guess that he is referring to the dragoon carbine, similar to the Littlecote Carbine, 30 inch barrels and about .64 calibre. Note that in in the following pictures, the dragoon sling is a clip hook that attaches to a single ring on the side of the stock opposite the breech. This allows the carbine to be reversed to allow loading on horseback without taking the weapon off.

http://www.royalarmouries.org.uk/learning/online-learning/littlecote-house-module/explore-littlecote-house-without-flash/great-hall-in-littlecote-house/english-civil-wars-flintlock-carbines-blunderbusses

Hawkyns

[Mission]

He does not in the parts I have read, as I recall. However, I think trying to identify the exact gun may be to commit the error I mention above.

As for dates, I must muddy the waters further. The book was published posthumously. It is believed by the editor of the volume I am reading that Boteler[butler] wrote it based on his experiences in the early part of the 17th century (1620s - early 1630s), although he probably began writing after 1640. I'd recite the dates he was on ships, but the text is not very well organized in this respect. The editor doesn't know exactly when he died, but it is suggested in the introduction that it was after 1643. Since he held public office in 1639, he definitely wasn't at sea at that point.

[Fox]

FWIW, Butler was also Governor of the Bahamas for a while, and held a privateering commission granted by the Earl of Warwick. Large chunks of his text were cribbed from Sir Henry Manwaring - one of the most infamous pirates of his age.

[Mission]

Based on what Perrin said, my impression was that most of the 4th dialog (which is about terms) was taken from Manwaring's book. I actually skipped much of this, even tough it makes up well over half of the text, for this very reason. This quote is from the 5th dialog. Although since he borrowed from Manwaring in the 4th dialog, I could easily see where it affected what he said in the 5th since it appears to have been done chronologically.

[MarkG]

Interesting. Does he at any point specify what he means by carbine? That is one of the most widely used terms in the 17th and 18th c, and means just about anything other than a full musket. I've seen it used to describe anything from a coaching blunderbuss with a 14 inch barrel, really a pistol with a shoulder stock, to a musket with a 42 inch barrel.

Based on the date, I would guess that he is referring to the dragoon carbine, similar to the Littlecote Carbine, 30 inch barrels and about .64 calibre. Note that in in the following pictures, the dragoon sling is a clip hook that attaches to a single ring on the side of the stock opposite the breech. This allows the carbine to be reversed to allow loading on horseback without taking the weapon off.

http://www.royalarmo...s-blunderbusses

Hawkyns

You can also hold the stock under your arm and fire it one-handed while holding the reins with the other. The stock drops down to allow this. I saw an extreme example at the mission at Capistrano. This was an early 18th century dragoon carbine an the stock was specially shaped to hook under the arm.

This is a very handy arm for a pirate. I've been using a Littlecote carbine. It is short enough to load in an open boat and would have greater range than a pistol. It is also possible to climb aloft with it.

Mark