michaelsbagley Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Okay, so I have begun making a bodiced gown for Kate (me loverlly wif)... There are a ton of good images out there (the many fashion plates that are posted and re-posted are likely the best source), but there are some great paintings and other sources as well. I've looked through the pub and not found a thread dedicated to this garment yet, so I thought I would start one. I'll post pictures as I get things done, so far I have only drafted a pattern, and cut out the interlining layers (still not 100% sure which fabric from the stash I will be using for the outer layer, although I am leaning towards a light "sea-foam" green. Anyways, hope this thread will flourish with ideas and pics from other people's creations and researches. Anyway, to start here are some nice easy images from Wikipedia that reference the 1660s to 1680s... I could link a whole lot more, but this is all I have time for now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBrower Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 I can't wait! I will be making one for myself.... someday.... Are you building the bodice over stays? I think that is my plan of attack. Creating a perfect fitting, off the shoulder set as the base... DOes that make sense? Cook and Seamstress to the Half Moon Marauders Lady Brower's Treasures, Clothing and other treasures Hell Hath No Fury like the Wrath of a Woman... No that's it. She doesn't need a reason. www.myspace.com/halfmoonmarauders www.myspace.com/faerienoodle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 (edited) see typed version following Note the skirt arrangement which seems a whole lot easier than stitching the skirts to the bodice... Also Waugh's cut of women's clothing, page41 Diagram VIII shows a bodice which if you cut out the front on the fold instead of as two separate pieces works very well for the later style...page 40 Diagram VI is the pattern for the gown pictured and I believe Arnold also has the same pattern (better laid out) in Patterns of Fashion Vol. 1 dang still can't read the words.. will type them out Edited January 9, 2010 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 1660s Court Dress This is the oldest dress, and one of the rarest pieces, in the collection at the Fashion Museum (which I believe is in Bath, England). Very few complete dresses from the 17th century survive. It is a court dress and is known as the Silver Tissue Dress because it is made of a fabric where the warp is silk and the weft is silver metal thread. The dress is decorated with applied parchment lace, a silk bobbin lace enclosing strips of parchment. All of these materials were costly. In fact at this date it was not unusual for the lace used to decorate a dress to be more expensive than the fabric from which the dress was made. The Silver-tissue Dress was therefore a dress to be worn at grand occasions, such as attendance at a royal court, in the presence of King Charles II. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady constance Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 absolutely fabulous postings !!!! and a fabulous topic toooo!!! if one goes to a fabric store and begins to peruse the wedding gown designs and eveing gowns, one will find many patterns to base your gown on ---and by combining a few patterns, you should be able to do this quite easily--excepting the amount of yardage needed to make such a gown.... jessica mclintock and gunnesacks{ from the early 80's}--- those are two makers that are heavily influenced by voluminously flowing skirts and form fitting bodices..... one can look at the elizabethan patterns and knowledge of fabric draping and cutting can get you there.....the bodices' are just longer on the torso for the late 1600's--seeming/ appearing to come over the iliac crest ridge of the hips front and back...... when you are at good will, or other thrift store--take a look at the wedding gowns--- look how the skirt is attached to the bodice...the way they stack the fabric { they notch it is triangle shaped cut outs to get it to lay just so in folds.....shortening and deepening the folds for volume and sway .......{i learn alot dismantling gowns to redo them] ONE WOULD THINK THAT if you worked starting from the bodice front from a pair of stays that you know fit well, that would be a place to start,,, keep us posted with PICS on this project!! i would love to see the whole process and completion!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Right then, the above are later copies supposedly of original plates from the proper period "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 (edited) oops will try to blow this up tomorrow Edited January 9, 2010 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady constance Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 boned bodice in mauve---- how easy!!! just so fringes on the botton instead of tabs!! making my job easier!!! yah know what KILLS me? when i went to pip, i wore such a gown--it was a gunnesax gown i redid-- AND I TOOK THE PUFFY sleeves that hung mid deltoid muscle-- LIKE THESE PICTURES SHOW!!! arrrrrrrrggggggggghhhh! DANG NABBIT IF I ONLY I WOULD HAVE HAD ENOUGH CONFIDENCE TO JUST DYE IT AND WEAR IT!!---- and the red gown with bows scattered all over ---man that is elizabethan cut just over the top of under skirts..!!! { well it appears that way}........ way to go captain!! make me drool and dream all in the same space of 5 minutes!!! dont know whether to curtsy or call yea a temptor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady constance Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the back of the skirt -------- YAH TIS EASY......{ and those curved marks mean to face direction on each side gowing towards the back..... expanse in yardage? any guess? CAUSE I CANT READ THE SCALE ON THE SIDE FOR DOING THE MATH!! dang the old eyes--now wait, let me say that truly this time it is the scanners fault!! and attach to bodice............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily Alexander Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 This is a pic of the ball gown Captain Sterling made for me from Beaufort 08. If you're gonna give me a headache, please bring me an aspirin! http://www.forttaylorpyrates.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 I believe I used about 8 yards of silk for the petticoat and another 8 for the overgown.. the bodice requires about a yard and don't forget the sleeve. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 (edited) way to go captain!! make me drool and dream all in the same space of 5 minutes!!! dont know whether to curtsy or call yea a temptor! Oh I will respond to both... just ask the mistresses... Edited January 9, 2010 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Souris Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 I love this one. It's almost exactly what I am wanting when Mickey starts the fancier version of this gown. The first one is going to be a simplified version for Searles, and kind of a test for when we bust out the silk for the other one. Sterling, I think that we have a copy of the page from the Cut of Women's Clothing that you sent the last time I had it in my head to do this. This time, Mickey has it in his head, so it will likely get done. :) We'll post pictures as it goes along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady constance Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 the more and more and more i look at these gowns, they definitely seem to be and are a combo of skirts --and the bodice/ stays they just seem that they are just cut from the same fabric---- the first one you posted.{ from the 1660's}.. as you said note the side view--- you can plainly see the tabs of her stays under the skirt back..........and the tiny line of cream colored whatever/ trimming/ bias tape /twill tape that must hold it up under the front end of her stays..... more more more more thinking........puzzle piecing and puzzle solving in my mind..... { ahh the glory of contemplation and possibilities and thinking!!} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted January 9, 2010 Author Share Posted January 9, 2010 I'm going to derail my own thread here.... And point out that if you look at all of the earlier period bodiced gowns, the women are not wearing head coverings... It is only in the 1680s and 1690s images where they ave any form of head covering. And a HUGE thanks to Sterling for all those images... While many I have seen before, there were surprising more posted that I haven't seen yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 I'm going to derail my own thread here.... And point out that if you look at all of the earlier period bodiced gowns, the women are not wearing head coverings... It is only in the 1680s and 1690s images where they ave any form of head covering. And a HUGE thanks to Sterling for all those images... While many I have seen before, there were surprising more posted that I haven't seen yet. The styles/fashions were different and hair uncovered was certainly acceptable whilst all done up for an important occasion. Some sort of cap or head covering still seems to be the norm for the common woman or common occasion. And yet, the hairstyles are very elaborate, no just let it hang in the breeze, like we unfortunately see at so many events still...but again..that is certainly acceptable for folks not doing Real pirates or something pc.. My pleasure Mickey, glad I got to share a few new ones.. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBarbossa Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Note the skirt arrangement which seems a whole lot easier than stitching the skirts to the bodice... Ahhh, that would explain why some of the bodice stays why they be so decorative. It's rather interesting, too. So many styles! Huzzah! We all don't have to be cookie cutter! :) Great finds there, Sterling. I'm always amazed with what ye are able to find. Only a few of those I've been able to find. Ye are the Indiana Jones of period attire. Oh the hedgehog look! That's fantastic, isn't it? I was bouncing off the walls when I spotted that. Laughed as that became retro in the late 18th c. LOL, ironic, hmm? ~Lady B Tempt Fate! an' toss 't all t' Hell!" "I'm completely innocent of whatever crime I've committed." The one, the only,... the infamous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Oh the hedgehog look! That's fantastic, isn't it? I was bouncing off the walls when I spotted that. Laughed as that became retro in the late 18th c. LOL, ironic, hmm? ~Lady B Nothing new under the sun, Lady B. Everything repeats itself with just a bit of tweaking.. I had a phenomenal hedgehog wig whilst doing the later end of the Rev. War... worked great for balls unfortunately never rode well under a dragoon helmet... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady constance Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 everything posted and everything i know about sewing and garment construction lead me to deduce that the bodice/stays are seperate from the skirting... the skirting is tied well underneath and hidden { and would be easy to do considering that you are sewing a huge bulk of gathered/ pleated fabric to give desired shape.... what i also know is that to sew a heavily pleated linen if it is weighted medium to heavy weight would be downright heavy and cumbersome to move in......so it seams that all the fabric choices of gowns displayed is rather a light to meduim weight ..... this would also help in the pleating staying so nicely arranged while wearing the skirts....... i do find it odd that they would stick the back fingers of the stays under the skirt back---but whomever arranged the clothing on the model dummy, had to choose what he/ she thought abotu how they wore the gown-- this is a judgement call and has perhaps little to do with historically accurate wearing of the gowns.... this is precisely where paintings fail us.... did the artist paint EXACTLY what he saw, or did he paint to optimize the beauty of the wearer? or a bit of both? { kind of like photo shop today} Capt'n Sterling--- if you could take a look at the scale on that one skirt { seemingly a mantua piece}... so i can do the math....i have 20 yards of linen in a pink and a green that are dying to be cut! i am not so sure that it will work--it is donegal linen and medium weight.....almost seems to heavy for this application... and yet, maybe not....{ considering that i paid less than 2 bucks a yeard for it,i dont think i have much to lose} { and i do have nora waughs cut of womens clothing tome--- but it is for a way earlier period....} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 (edited) everything posted and everything i know about sewing and garment construction lead me to deduce that the bodice/stays are seperate from the skirting... the skirting is tied well underneath and hidden { and would be easy to do considering that you are sewing a huge bulk of gathered/ pleated fabric to give desired shape.... what i also know is that to sew a heavily pleated linen if it is weighted medium to heavy weight would be downright heavy and cumbersome to move in......so it seams that all the fabric choices of gowns displayed is rather a light to meduim weight ..... this would also help in the pleating staying so nicely arranged while wearing the skirts....... i do find it odd that they would stick the back fingers of the stays under the skirt back---but whomever arranged the clothing on the model dummy, had to choose what he/ she thought abotu how they wore the gown-- this is a judgement call and has perhaps little to do with historically accurate wearing of the gowns.... this is precisely where paintings fail us.... did the artist paint EXACTLY what he saw, or did he paint to optimize the beauty of the wearer? or a bit of both? { kind of like photo shop today} Capt'n Sterling--- if you could take a look at the scale on that one skirt { seemingly a mantua piece}... so i can do the math....i have 20 yards of linen in a pink and a green that are dying to be cut! i am not so sure that it will work--it is donegal linen and medium weight.....almost seems to heavy for this application... and yet, maybe not....{ considering that i paid less than 2 bucks a yeard for it,i dont think i have much to lose} { and i do have nora waughs cut of womens clothing tome--- but it is for a way earlier period....} I politely disagree... having sewn the over gown directly to the bodice in previous bodiced gowns that I have made, since I had yet to see the early Tissue gown prior to their construction, I used the full amount as required in the pattern posted...once gathered the silk was not bulky and the only trouble sewing was having to figure out how to get around the boning on the bodice...if you use a cartridge pleat, a lot of fabric can be gathered into a small amount of space and it reduced the bulk yet again. I must confess that the correct weight linen would be heavier in the long run as compared to silk, but with a bodice gown being laced tightly like a corset, since it basically is a covered corset, the weight doesn't seem to be an issue... and then 9 yards of linen is nothing compared to a properly made man's coat from the period.. now those can be surprisingly heavy. As to hiding the tabs/fingers under the skirt..there are far too many paintings showing waistlines where there are no tabs seen, so odds are correct that they were hidden under the skirts...remember the tabs are not a decorative addition to the stays(like tabs on Doublets earlier on) but are meant to travel down over the tops of the hips in order to create a nicer look and allow room for the curve of the hips...as the length of the corset is now descending and no longer the short waisted look of the earlier 17th century... Edited January 9, 2010 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Scale numbers starting from the Top left at zero...next is 10, then 50 then 100" "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Just a simple line drawing from Arnold to show the shifting of the waistline "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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