ladies haircoverings

[LadyBrower]

On another note... I've been trying to find some cool weather coverings. I am toying with the idea of knitting a cap in this luscious silk yarn I picked up. But I am having a hard time finding any sort of documentation for anything warm other than cloak hoods or heavier linen caps... In my noodle I'm thinking (scary, I know!) that a white wool cap in the same style would be almost indistinguishable from a linen cap in any pictures, and a camelot hood in wool would be quite warm. Perhaps with a knit lining? hmmmm.... thoughts? Has anyone come across any warm and cozies? Documentation is always appreciated. =)

[CrazyCholeBlack]

I have never seen any documentation for caps made of wool or other "warm" materials.

To be blunt, a cap made of wool would be rather useless, as wool can't easily be washed, and linen caps are a frequently soiled, frequently washed items.

I have also never encountered weather cold enough to justify such an article. Even when chipping ice out of the buckets first thing in the morning I've never found a need for anything more than 1. my linen cap 2. a linen coif (similar to the hood posted previously) and 3. the hood of my cape. All 3 together provide plenty of warmth though layers and the ability to take off pieces as needed, given strenuous work or variations in the day's weather while still remaining properly dressed.

Chole

[LadyBrower]

Chole, that makes sense about the wool and the layering. Thank you!

[Bess Hagarty]

Well ... if you're portraying a mid-17th century Dutch woman, MAYBE it's correct. Apparently it's thought this may not have been created as a literal portrait and at any rate, it's pretty exotic looking. (but hey! so are pirates!)

Very good question Jenny! The date of this famous paiting is 1665. This is a tad bit early for the Golden Age of Piracy and it is good to note as you did so well; that this painting could have been artistic license or the artist’s interpretation of the object he/she painted.

Ladies, do keep in mind that this was common place during the late 17th up to the mid-1800s. I think this topic of discussion was posting here on the pub once before.

Artists were known to paint women is period gowns/dress that were not the current fashion. So what may look like a painting of the 1680s could very well be off several years! Please keep that in mind when looking at woman's attire for the time period.

[LadyBrower]

Well ... if you're portraying a mid-17th century Dutch woman, MAYBE it's correct. Apparently it's thought this may not have been created as a literal portrait and at any rate, it's pretty exotic looking. (but hey! so are pirates!)

Very good question Jenny! The date of this famous paiting is 1665. This is a tad bit early for the Golden Age of Piracy and it is good to note as you did so well; that this painting could have been artistic license or the artist's interpretation of the object he/she painted.

Ladies, do keep in mind that this was common place during the late 17th up to the mid-1800s. I think this topic of discussion was posting here on the pub once before.

Artists were known to paint women is period gowns/dress that were not the current fashion. So what may look like a painting of the 1680s could very well be off several years! Please keep that in mind when looking at woman's attire for the time period.

If you've ever seen the movie, the reason it is painted that way is because the model refuses to show her head/hair uncovered, so the artist has her wrap her hair that way. I know it's not a good resource but it is still an interesting explanation for the odd covering.

[Bess Hagarty]

Yes, I've seen the movie and enjoyed it thoroughly! The use of Turkish influence is not uncommon during the early to mid-17th century. Vermeer did several paintings with turkish influence and was known to have possession of clothing.

In the Netherlands as well, Persian and Turkish fashions had captured the imagination of many artists and a variety of turbans make their appearance regularly in a number of artists' works including including Rembrandt and Michael Sweerts.

[lady constance]

ahhhh...

what have i been reading and reading and observing in artwork that leads and directs me to IMPLORE that we think outside the box!!!!!!!!!!

ANY woman found in any type of pirate company would soooooooooo not follow the rules and norms of culture...

she has aldready left the comforts and rules of "civilized" society....

so, what would encourage her to follow any cultural norms and standards ???

aye-- she might love to follow the fashions of her old country... but surely she would incorporate what was avaailable around her--- enjoy and make use of what was avaailible to her....she would see much and could do as she pleased... and if a male had a problem with her, let him get drunk, and then she could slit his throat, rob him blind and make it look like an accident......{that is what i would do!!}

and whilst we speak of headcoverings.... what about MANTILLAS????????????

why dont we see many more cultural differnces of the pirate women?

dutch, russian, spanish, french, ???

why do we only see english intepretations?

where are the imaginations about this?

why are we so boxed in?

has holly wood stunted our imaginations?

i love allthe ideas--- but i so live outside the box already, i cant go back into small imagination scenarios ever again... life here in the wild imaginations and whatis known about textiles and art and embroidery and everyone homespinning and making heir own stuff--- well-- use what you have! your mind coupled with your resources!! CREATE!! MAKE NEW! re invent yourself !!

PLAY PLAY PLAY!!!

i dont expect everyone to understand-- there is apoint inlife that you no longer want or need understanding...

i am at place that i can agree to disagree.... respectfully and happily!!!

i love eveyones input...love it....

sometimes i am swayed, other times i will chart my own path.......infact most times....

i wont give away my happiness in crafting new things.........nor can you take it from me....

:)

lady constance

[Kate Souris]

I've chatted extensively with several people in regards to head coverings, and I firmly believe that you have to find what works for you, much like Chole said. I think that I darn near gave Kass a heart attack when I told her I was ready to even wear something on my head aside from my bonnet, which by the way was a gift from the lovely Lily Alexander (and I still love it as much as I did the day she gave it to me).

I really like my stupid little cap (affectionately nicknamed, I assure you) because it keeps the hair out of my face and up off of my neck, and markedly cleaner over a hot, sweaty weekend. And it's better now that Chole gave me a little hint about how to keep the thing actually on my head!

[Capt. Sterling]

Some where, someone asked about a bit of colour for women's head coverings...

beginning on page 185, from "Historic Dress in America", by Elizabeth McClellan

Hood: (original lent to the author): is made of drab camlet and lined with silk to match, for it belonged to a colonial Quakeress. The fashionable dames of the times made them of gay silk, according to contemporary sources. The hood which in the previous reign was commonly of black silk, velvet or sarsenet, we now find in various colours; and cherry coloured hoods were all the rage in 1712. A group of ladies in coloured silk hoods at the theatre is described in The Spectator as "One of them was blue, another yellow and another philomot; the fourth was of a pink colour and the fifth was of a pale green. I looked upon this little parti-coloured assembly as upon a bed of tulips."

and vocabulary for them that know not....

(Philomot Phil"o*mot\, a. [see Filemot.] Of the color of a dead leaf. [Obs.] --Addison.)

sarce⋅net

  /ˈsɑrsnɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sahrs-nit]

noun

a fine, soft fabric, often of silk, made in plain or twill weave and used esp. for linings.

Also, sarsenet, sarsnet.

Origin:

142575; late ME sarsenet < AF sarzinet, prob. equiv. to sarzin- Saracen + -et -et

Montgomery states: Sarcenet: A thin, transparent silk of plain weave. The name is derived fromt he Latin Saracenus, "From first having been woven by Saracens, probably in Spain." Beck suggested that it was not used extensively until the fifteenth century and probably displaced "the older kindred fabric cendal." Thicker than persian, sarcenet was woven twilled, as well as plain, and in all colours. (Perkins). Sarcenet is listed in the 17th century Ham House inventories in wide variety- changeable, clouded, florence, persian and striped -where it was used for sun blinds, protective bed and furniture cases, and wall curtains in front of finer materials. (Thornton and Tomin. pp 21, 52 and passim). page.339

cam⋅let

  /ˈkæmlɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kam-lit]

noun

1. a durable, waterproof cloth, esp. for outerwear.

2. apparel made of this material.

3. a rich fabric of medieval Asia believed to have been made of camel's hair or angora wool.

verb (used with object)

4. to decorate (fabric, book edges, etc.) with a colorful, marbled design.

Origin:

13501400; ME camelet < MF, perh. < Ar khamlah kind of plush fabric, akin to khaml nap, pile

Montgomery states: "Of plain weave, ... woven in many widths, lengths, qualitites and in all colours. Some of goat's hair, some partly of silk, or linen, and some entirely of wool; they are made for men's and women's clothing, bed hangings, furniture, and church hangings. (Chambers, Postlethwayt). Worsted camlets became harateens and moreens, grograms and grogrinetts. chinas, or cheneys, when given different finishes. These both Chambers and Postlethwayt describe.

Figured camlets (FR. gaufres) are "those of one colour, whereon are stamped various figures, flowers, foliages, & etc. by means of hot irons, which are a kind of moulds pressed together with the stuff under a press."

Water camlets: (Fr. a Eau) are "those which, after weaving, receive a certain preparation with water, and are afterwards passed under a hot-press, which gives them a smoothness and lustre."

Waved camlets (FR. ondes) are "those whereon waves are impressed, as on tabbies, by means of a Calender, under which they are passed and repassed several times."

Roland de la Platiere in Art du fabricant d'etoffes said that camlets with heavy, or coarse, weft yarns, called grosgrains, were suitable for a waved finish similar to modern moire. Those with finer wefts, more nearly equal in size to the warps, were suited to stamped patterns. He further stated that six threads in each selvedge should be of a different color to indicate that the cloth is made up of yarns dyed before weaving.(pg 28).

John Evelyn visited Tours in 1644: "I went to see their manufactures in silk, (for in this town they drive a very considerable trade with silk-worms), their pressing and watering the grograms and camlets, with eights of an extraordinary poise, put into a rolling-engine"(1:111).

In his letter book of 1719/20, Samuel Sewall was explicit in his order for bed hangings: "To be Bought. Curtains and Vallens for a Bed, with Counterpane. Head-Cloth and Tester, of good yellow watered camlet, with Trimming, well made and Bases, if it be the fashion. A good fine large Chintz Quilt well made. Send also of the same Camlet and Trimming, as many be enough to make Cushions for the Chamber Chairs." page 188

Edited September 2, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[lady constance]

whoa ho ho!!!

so historical text does support what we find in art !!!!

cap't sterling--- good job--

and thank you for putting the time in!!

although i know you dont do characters from spain, did you at least look up mantillas? and their age and function?

and do you think that considering how large and how much profit spain had coming in, they might have infuenced surrounding cultures to have an impact-- in regards to ladies hair coverings? { their lace seems to have done so!}

pax,

lady constance

[lady constance]

oh--- and i have been resesrching bedcoverings and quilts as well... interesting info...beenaround for a long time and were considerd very valuable-- so valuable as to evenbe listed in property record and wills

[LadyBarbossa]

::le sigh:::

Lady Constance... you are correct. Yes, headwear did vary on decade, religious background, and country region. It's tough to pinpoint any website out there. I did (and still do) Google search as often as I can.

Incredibly info, Sterling! Wow! Hazel Dickfoss would love to have that info if she doesn't have it already. :)

Hehehe... Interesting info about the quilts, Lady Constance. :) I've more quilts than I know what to do with, all I bring with me to events as they make THE best bedding and mattress on my cot.

~Lady B

[Capt. Sterling]

whoa ho ho!!!

so historical text does support what we find in art !!!!

cap't sterling--- good job--

and thank you for putting the time in!!

although i know you dont do characters from spain, did you at least look up mantillas? and their age and function?

and do you think that considering how large and how much profit spain had coming in, they might have infuenced surrounding cultures to have an impact-- in regards to ladies hair coverings? { their lace seems to have done so!}

pax,

lady constance

Lace seems to be manufactured in quite a number of places during our time frame, such as Flanders, Italy, France, not just Spain. As to mantillas, no, I have not done any research on the article as of yet, perhaps some day. As to influencing other cultures, France seems to be taking the lead in that area during our time frame, not Spain, as Louis had a very intelligent bloke (Colbert) in charge of "marketing style"...

Now as to combs and veils.. I have a couple of illustrations showing them being worn will have to check and see if there is any information as to whether this is Spanish influence or not

[Capt. Sterling]

The bottom picture could be a comb or maybe tis just ribbon...

Edited September 3, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[Silkie McDonough]

Cap, what time of day were these worn? I especially like "C. 1719"

[Capt. Sterling]

Good question...at this point, I don't know. I have yet to find the originals that the black and whites are based on... hopefully when and if I do, that will provide more assistance... I do know that as our time frame progressed that the high hair styles eventually began to lower. I have some info on that, will hunt it down.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[lady constance]

ohhhhhhhhhhh... i like "b".....

research into millinery will add alot and has aided me tons!...........sometimes the hair styles are also in them...{ so you know how they kept them on their heads!!}

and i would think that location and weather would also be part of the equation.....

so much to learn!

cap'n thank you for all your hard work!

:)

lady constance

[Capt. Sterling]

1687

"It is not surprising that you are wearing fontanges because everybody here does from little girls seven years old to old women in their eighties, the only difference is that young people wear them in all colours, whereas their elders have only black or dark-coloured ones.." - Madame, Duchesse D'Orleans, correspondence.

Unfortunately it does not state what parts are in the different colours... but it may have been along these types ...

[LadyBarbossa]

I'm thinking, by the looks of them, it's not just time of day, but by seasons mostly. Rather obvious with the "poofy" styles they wore the muffs and other cold weather attire.

Most interesting, Sterling. ::Bows at feet and worships::: you are THE source of info, Captain.

~Lady B