Jumps

[lady constance]

i am sorry that i strayed off topic---

but, i just get so excited that i CAN easily adjust and tweak jacket patterns and know they are period correct as far as line and shape....

think of just wacking off the long end of a mantua---and just the top with a minimal skirting attached...that would be a sort of jumps...

there could be sleeves to it, or it could be made sleeveless...you decide if you wuold have worn it only around thehouse or outside in a formal setting....

i think we use our minds just like they did back then-- you can bet they did-

i KNOW this seems to counterintuitive with some folks who really want and desire to stay period correct,,,then they can do so ,and i encourage them to do so!

i personally like the possibility that we can match hemlines and shapes and period correct fabric, and construct our own garments...

before i went to pip, i found art to be so incredibly helpful!it got me close to being able to nearly match GaOP--but i was gently corrected on a few things-- i learned! and that was the point... i also saw fabulously done things that inspired me....

when i run into someone wearing soemthing new that i have not seen, i ask that person-- and listen to what they have found intheir research travails.. alwys fabulously interesting and i haveto applaud anyone who thinks a bit out side the current beleifs and trends.... no one person can do a sweeping history and research ...

i would think that veering into art wouldbe most helpful .....andi encourage it...

your answers are there.. the art will convice you beyond a shadow of a doubt...

your local librarian would LOVE to search for copies of 1700's paintings/ art books for you to borrow!!

happy viewing and sewing!!!

[LadyBrower]

An interesting reference to the "evolution" of jumps (I found when I was looking for information on the evolution of the waistcoat:

"There were other names for the doublet which are now difficult to place precisely. In the reign of Henry VIII a law was passed as to men's wear of velvet in their sleeveless cotes, jackets, and jupes. This word jupe and its ally jupon were more frequently heard in women's lists; but jump, a derivative, was man's wear. Randle Holme said: "A jump extendeth to the thighs; is open and buttoned before, and may have a slit half way behind." It might be with or without sleeves--all this being likewise true of the doublet. From this jump descended the modern jumper and the eighteenth century jumps--what Dr. Johnson defined in one of his delightsome struggles with the names of women's attire, 'Jumps: a kind of loose or limber stays worn by sickly ladies.' "

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10115/10115-h/10115-h.htm#Knitted_Flaxen_Mittens.

I would like to know who this Dr. Johnson Character is though...

[callenish gunner]

Dr Samuel Johnson the wiki page for his biography one of the cultural icons of 18th century England

[LadyBrower]

oh great! Thanks. :-)

Definitely didn't make the connection, and feel like a total idiot... oops.

[Capt. Sterling]

Bodice

* Place of origin:

England (made)

* Date:

1700-1729 (made)

* Artist/Maker:

Unknown

* Materials and Techniques:

Linen, corded and embroidered with silk thread

* Museum number:

494-1902

* Gallery location:

In store

This is the front of a woman’s informal bodice of the early 18th century, intended for wearing under a loose robe open at the front. The back of the bodice, which has not survived, would probably have been made of plain linen. An embroidered pattern of exotic birds with large blossoms and leaves covers the front. It combines stylistic elements of chinoiserie design in the birds and aspects of late 17th century English embroidery in the flowers and leaves. The background is cord quilted, a quilting technique where instead of padding, thin cords are inserted between parallel lines of stitching.

[LadyBrower]

That is lovely. :-) Thank you for posting that.

The heavy embroidery and cording would still allow it to be firm and slightly supportive. It says that the back would probably have been plain linen, but I wonder if that would be corded or quilted as well for stability? I'm interested in the fact that it has very obvious soft, natural curved side seams, as opposed to the angular figure created by stays.

It looks comfy....

[capn'rob]

In some 18th century restored homes, I have seen large embroidery frames on stands close by the hearth in the parlor. I have an image of of a woman working this piece on a winter's night, warmed by the fire. Perhaps a daughter with a small frame working her first sampler. The outcome is after many evenings like this, an object of art that serves a purpose and stands the test of time. It's amazing how much can be done of an evening without a TV!

[jendobyns]

HI,

I'm new to this forum, so jumping on this bandwagon _very_ late. This painting and several of the Watteau paintings and the subject of "jumps" have been discussed deeply by the 18C community in other forums. Some of the Watteau paintings appear to have been a form of "cheesecake". Not intended for public consumption drawing room at the time, but for more private viewing. So you get these ladies showing their garters in a state of semi-undress. Also the paintings of "shepherdesses" in what look like jumps, shifts loosely draped, etc.

Not all paintings were serious and formal at the time. There was fantasy art back then, too. And a fair amount of what we might call adult material. Much of it has been lost, but was created by the same artists who did serious painting. It all depended on what the market (person who commissioned the art) wanted. And there was even a trend for having portraits in "antique" or exotic clothing. So you can't take what is in paintings as gospel.

You are on the right track with what you're planning to do for jumps. One of their purposes was as an extra layer of warmth, so forming them over your stays is approprite. And that will also give them the right shape for the occasions when you decide to wear them for comfort instead of stays. *S*

quote name='LadyBrower' date='12 August 2009 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1250138176' post='366194']

hahaha! I think it's part artistic lisence, part the fact the are not tightened...

But yea... I'm so tempted to make jumps based on the few waistcoat pictures available. I want to make them quilted but lace or tie in the front. I'm thinking that if I create waistcoat pattern on a form with my stays on it, it will have a similar shape, and then I can flare it out at the hips there.... get the idea?

Just a though. Period or no I think it would look super cute with low rise jeans for fall with a cute peasant top and some nice knitted mitts....

[Grymm]

I know it's a bit late 1740's not GAoP but at least one lady here isn't wearing stays

[Silkie McDonough]

OH! As a woman who is "above average" : I am all about that! Too bad it is late 1700's

[Grymm]

1740 is only 20(ish)yrs after the GAoP, not that late, in fact before the middle of the 18thC so technically early.=oÞ

[jendobyns]

I know it's a bit late 1740's not GAoP but at least one lady here isn't wearing stays

Oh, goodness! I just now got around to seeing this painting. The lady on the platform just breaks so many taboos! No stays, she looks quite pregnant (although there could be other interpretations for her shape and size) and she's apparently been playing a fiddle, which from my understanding of appropriate (read: lady-like) behavior for a woman, is not acceptable. The couple dancing in front is also interesting. The line of her bodice is definitely not what you'd usually see with stays, and the man's foot is under her petticoats as they are dancing. What's that supposed to be about?

This is a May Day celebration, perhaps?

The more I look at this, the more interesting little details I see. Hmmmm.

[Silkie McDonough]

Jen,

Seems to me that artistic license is used here. That said I also think there ARE many taboos here that I can't explaine. As to the lady on the platform she is clearly an "above average" woman, she has a double chin. It does seem to be some celebration. I don't think the entire painting is shown here I can think of few paintings where characters are cut as they are here. ...then again perhaps not.

and it is a wedding.

"Troost Cornelis The Wedding Of Kloris And Roosje"

I suggest that the taboos explored are a commentary of the times or perhaps something the artist was known for. It has been YEARS since I took art history and I have forgotten most of what I was to have learned. An artist would sell his work to the rich so the artist would have to appeal to the rich. To understand the painting one must explore the artist, the social structure, political happenings of the day as well as the style of the artist.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Silkie McDonough

[Grymm]

'S by Cornelius Troost who was Dutch, an ex actor and set designer, circa 1729. Yes it does tell a story but all paintings contain an element of artistic license. Troost was a contempererererey of Hogarth painting what he saw but arranging it to tell stories, so there's every chance that these characters are based on real folk, the larger lady eshewing stays/jumps, the widow with widows peak in the background.

This next one, as well as making me laugh alot (Mooning man with face drawn on his bum above the somber dressed religeous types flanked by 'blacked-up' trumpeters) Talso shows a lady with the red neckerchief who looks unencumbered by stays.

Now I'm just guessing here but like I mentioned on 18cWoman " Here in the 21stC we like everything to fit into neat boxes and in truth it never really does, terminology/habits vary from person to person as do details, we need to be a little

more....erm, fluid with our thinking and terminology. Think many manyoverlapping venn diagrams rather than neatly stacked boxes"

Some women prob'ly went without, damn sight easier to work in but if you get to mince around the house doing bugger all then lace'em up tight. There's another pic that I have somewhere that shows the inside of a busy tailors workshop with a woman carrying beer jugs for the tailors wearing just skirts shift and stays.

I fear more than a few of these conventions you mention are what I would call re-enactorisms, us 21stC types retro fitting our morals and ideals on the past.

But hey as long as we talk about it rather than just accept them as truths things and knowledge will get pushed forward =o)

[Grymm]

For more Troost http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/troost_cornelis.html

[Capt. Sterling]

Grymm thanks for the link...having way too much fun with this painting...especially with the fellow in the gray...

finally a haircut I can live with...and he looks pretty good with a scar as well...

[jendobyns]

'S by Cornelius Troost who was Dutch, an ex actor and set designer, circa 1729. Yes it does tell a story but all paintings contain an element of artistic license. Troost was a contempererererey of Hogarth painting what he saw but arranging it to tell stories, so there's every chance that these characters are based on real folk, the larger lady eshewing stays/jumps, the widow with widows peak in the background.

This next one, as well as making me laugh alot (Mooning man with face drawn on his bum above the somber dressed religeous types flanked by 'blacked-up' trumpeters) Talso shows a lady with the red neckerchief who looks unencumbered by stays.

Now I'm just guessing here but like I mentioned on 18cWoman " Here in the 21stC we like everything to fit into neat boxes and in truth it never really does, terminology/habits vary from person to person as do details, we need to be a little

more....erm, fluid with our thinking and terminology. Think many manyoverlapping venn diagrams rather than neatly stacked boxes"

Some women prob'ly went without, damn sight easier to work in but if you get to mince around the house doing bugger all then lace'em up tight. There's another pic that I have somewhere that shows the inside of a busy tailors workshop with a woman carrying beer jugs for the tailors wearing just skirts shift and stays.

I fear more than a few of these conventions you mention are what I would call re-enactorisms, us 21stC types retro fitting our morals and ideals on the past.

But hey as long as we talk about it rather than just accept them as truths things and knowledge will get pushed forward =o)

Thanks for that Grymm. I am pretty much of the same mind here, this whole "everyone did X, if they didn't then they're Y" philosophy is pretty narrow. I haven't seen a lot of jumps outside of the "cheesecake" type of art, so seeing just stays or jumps on a working girl who isn't being portrayed as a prostitute would be awesome! And I seem to be seeing a commonality with the women depicted in jacket/bedgown/short gown without stays. They are all of a more mature nature from what I've seen _so far_. Complete with the heavy bust and large belly that some of us develop after child bearing and age. But while they could easily be over weight in our sense of things, even into their fifties, they could also be pregnant. Even if they aren't, those clothes will make them appear so when worn w/o stays. And, after multiple pregnancies and weight gains, wearing stays is just torture for some women on some days. So I can imagine a woman going out as this one appears to have done, completely respectably covered in every other way, sans stays.

We do tend to bring a lot of 21st C. baggage along with us, and we need to be aware of that, and creeping reenactorisms. It's what an old anthropology prof of mine called ethnocentricity, viewing a situation from one's own version of reality, not from the perspective of the culture/ethnic group being observed.

So for now, while jumps appear to still be somewhat problematic, is it safe, do you think, to say that the less formal outer garments like bedgowns, could be worn without stays in public on occasion? Without the woman in question being considered "loose", or a procuress? Or do you think that perhaps these images are artistically suspect enough to avoid it?

[Silkie McDonough]

Being an older working woman who may have had children I am going to have to make myself a set of jumps ...or 3.

[jendobyns]

Now here's an interesting image. You can see clearly that what this young lady is wearing is not stays in the sense we know them. Jumps? Still under her very fine gown, but definitely not fully boned, or even as far as I can tell, partially boned, stays. All the info on this that I found is in Dutch, so I have no idea what the title of the painting may be.

It came from this link from the link Grymm supplied: Cornelis Troost at the Rijksmuseum, AmsterdamGreat scans of Rijksmuseum paintings, from the 'Memory of the Netherlands' project

Lots of interesting art there, with people behaving badly *g*<br clear="all">

Edited October 19, 2010 by jendobyns

[jendobyns]

Jen,

Seems to me that artistic license is used here. That said I also think there ARE many taboos here that I can't explaine. As to the lady on the platform she is clearly an "above average" woman, she has a double chin. It does seem to be some celebration. I don't think the entire painting is shown here I can think of few paintings where characters are cut as they are here. ...then again perhaps not.

and it is a wedding.

"Troost Cornelis The Wedding Of Kloris And Roosje"

I suggest that the taboos explored are a commentary of the times or perhaps something the artist was known for. It has been YEARS since I took art history and I have forgotten most of what I was to have learned. An artist would sell his work to the rich so the artist would have to appeal to the rich. To understand the painting one must explore the artist, the social structure, political happenings of the day as well as the style of the artist.

A wedding explains all the garlands, thanks! I totally understand the perspective of the artist license, painting for the patrons, etc. One reason we have to take it with a grain of salt. How much of what we see is painting to a particular patron's perspective? Does the patron want period political satire, paintings of famous dramatic scenes, humor, family portraits, erotica? Is the portrait taken of someone who is caught up in the trend to wear fancy dress? Such a tangle! Analyzing not only what the artist was trying to get across, but also their own personal experience, biases, and taking into consideration our own. We have to be part artist, psychologist, historian, anthropologist, archaeologist, etc. More than any one source we rely on ever had to be when the material we're using was created. Sigh. Maybe creating a time machine would be easier *G*

[Silkie McDonough]

Now here's an interesting image. You can see clearly that what this young lady is wearing is not stays in the sense we know them. Jumps? Still under her very fine gown, but definitely not fully boned, or even as far as I can tell, partially boned, stays.

There are several images there Jen, which are you referring to?

[Grymm]

I'm guessing that Jen means this example of After drinkys shenanigans when she mentions bad behavior=o) complete with drunken fop goping maid a row kicking off 'tween the chap on the stoop and the one in the carriage and some hot wiggy on wiggy action, ah the joys of alcohol

Edited October 19, 2010 by Grymm

[Grymm]

It's worth searching using the phrase 'ladies waistcoat' as it turns up images that could be what folk think of as jumps.

Ladies 'waistcoat'

also called a ladies waistcoat

From http://www.arizonacostumeinstitute.com/ACI/Waistcoat.html

Edited October 19, 2010 by Grymm

[jendobyns]

Now here's an interesting image. You can see clearly that what this young lady is wearing is not stays in the sense we know them. Jumps? Still under her very fine gown, but definitely not fully boned, or even as far as I can tell, partially boned, stays.

There are several images there Jen, which are you referring to?

Grumblegrumblegrumble, It was there when I posted! This is, I think, the title:

Jan Claasz. of de gewaande dienstmaagd: de ontdekking van Jan Claasz.

It is the one where the lady is sitting down with at least 3 women in attendance around her, a knocked over bucket and mop in front of her, a man on the right, and another man dressed as a woman to the farthest right. She's wearing a gown which is undone at the front, with a blue under-thingie unlaced partially. The way it flops open at the very top, there can't be anything stiff inside it.

[jendobyns]

I'm guessing that Jen means this example of After drinkys shenanigans when she mentions bad behavior=o) complete with drunken fop goping maid a row kicking off 'tween the chap on the stoop and the one in the carriage and some hot wiggy on wiggy action, ah the joys of alcohol

Yep, that was one of 'em! *L*

Brings to mind one of my favorite movie lines "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way"