Of baldrics and pistols

[Commodore Swab]

I have been back reading alot in the twill and gathering much information along the "common" threads that keep surfacing and it is surprising how often a way to carry pistols has come up. We know from literature that pistols have been worn on baldrics, on belts with hooks, as well as having ribbons tied around them. The paintings we have seem to raise more questions than providing answers. Rather than trying to recreate an artists impression why don't we use our experience and try to engineer something that would logically work and once that is done go back to the drawings and see how it compares.

For example as a pirate on a boarding party you would want to carry as many pistols as you could get your hands on. Would ships guns be stored and only broken out when battle was immement, naturally most would have a single pistol of their own. Who needs to be carrying multiple pistols when not fighting. This would lead to a means to carry them that was either removeable, or a way the pistols could be added. Something like a baldric that can be stored with the pistols and removed when needed would be logical. Having a belt with 3 or 4 buckets that were kept empty would not be as pratical. Pistols with belt hooks that could be grabbed and added when needed would be very pratical but if they were larger that becomes awkard. I think we can all agree that if pistols are kept on a baldric there must be a way to secure the baldric from shifting. Taking the time to replace pistols is not a viable option, however having 4 pistols hanging from you neck on cords swinging wildly about with every step is just as bad. Multiple pistols unless they are all the same would incorporate different charges, would you want to keep them all in the same box and risk grabbing the wrong one?

What are your thoughts?

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

I have been back reading alot in the twill and gathering much information along the "common" threads that keep surfacing and it is surprising how often a way to carry pistols has come up. We know from literature that pistols have been worn on baldrics, on belts with hooks, as well as having ribbons tied around them. The paintings we have seem to raise more questions than providing answers. Rather than trying to recreate an artists impression why don't we use our experience and try to engineer something that would logically work and once that is done go back to the drawings and see how it compares.

For example as a pirate on a boarding party you would want to carry as many pistols as you could get your hands on. Would ships guns be stored and only broken out when battle was immement, naturally most would have a single pistol of their own. Who needs to be carrying multiple pistols when not fighting. This would lead to a means to carry them that was either removeable, or a way the pistols could be added. Something like a baldric that can be stored with the pistols and removed when needed would be logical. Having a belt with 3 or 4 buckets that were kept empty would not be as pratical. Pistols with belt hooks that could be grabbed and added when needed would be very pratical but if they were larger that becomes awkard. I think we can all agree that if pistols are kept on a baldric there must be a way to secure the baldric from shifting. Taking the time to replace pistols is not a viable option, however having 4 pistols hanging from you neck on cords swinging wildly about with every step is just as bad. Multiple pistols unless they are all the same would incorporate different charges, would you want to keep them all in the same box and risk grabbing the wrong one?

What are your thoughts?

I've always thought that trying to recreate (accurately) something along the line of a Blackbeard Baldric would be an interesting program for the History Channel or something like that. You take a few historians, a leather maker, a gunsmith, etc. and turn them loose to make something that works.

From experience, I know there are a host of problems when trying carry more than one gun. I currently have reproduction guns and even though they are lighter, it's difficult to carry three on a baldric let alone six. The baldric slides down, the holsters flop over from the weight, etc. It just doesn't seem practical. I even tried to make a single pistol holding baldric that would be accurate, and even then, the pistol wanted to fall out when I moved around and even one pistol wanted to pull the baldric down.

On the Nat Geo special about Blackbeard, a sharp eye will see that they had the same challenges. When Blackbeard is carrying six pistols, you'll see they use his dagger tucked into his belt to hold at least one of the pistols against his body. A screen shot also shows that they attached the baldric to his belt with a small piece of leather in the back to keep it from slipping forward. Seems these "fixes" would be probable but not practical.

[hurricane]

If I recall from my own readings, most pirates only carried one gun when boarding. They delivered the first shot as they boarded and then used the gun as a club until it was no longer useful. Then they simply left them on deck and used their preferred weapon, the cutlass, to hack their adversaries. Where the buccaneer rifles were prized by their owners and the ship's long arms were well maintained, I'm not sure the individual pistols were that important, since they were dropped in a boarding. I can't see anyone seriously fighting with a gun, trying to return it to anyplace on their person in a battle, since they'd never have time to reload it anyway. It would just get in the way.

- Hurricane

[sutlerjon]

Which is why I added the strap to my holsters, we do want to keep up with our pistols.

We've got more invested in them.

We're not taking our pick of the ones laying 'round after we've plundered our prize.

The bit mentioned on the Whydah documentary makes a bit more sense, the ribbons tied to pairs. Those you could tuck in your sash and maintain a bit more control. Replacing them when empty.

More legend than fact?

[gunner Gordon]

Where to start, hollywood has so screwed and skewed the practical knowledge of the day. There was a pattern or syrtagy to the taking of a sip, fort town what have you. it was guys with edged weapons that would be dealing with the initial obstacles and guys with guns ,grenados etc. that would be covering them to clear the way for the general assault.Hence pistols tied around your neck,ref. masrwe and commander. easily discarded when the edged assault came so you don't shoot your own people in the fray. Ribbon would have been quite strong and easier to deal with tan tarred or served rope.sailors and gun crews are not wearing weapons, you can't work and carry all that stuff. It's in barrels and buckets on the deck, along with the sand to throw on the bloods so you don't slip .If you look at contemporary drawings of multiple pistol carrying methods on leather you most often seem to see a standard type infantry sling and ammo pouch worn around the neck and held in place front ,center by the waist belt. you then see box lock screw barrelled rather small pistols in abundance, not large clumsy military pistols. tghese either have a belt hook slid into a small stitched piece of leatheron the back side of the strap and not visable when the gun is present. Since belthooks are very rare on these little pistols you can find a holster like sleeve and tiedown like the patch knife holder on hunting rigs. I hve used the strip of leather sewn to the backside of my waistbelt at an angle to keep as many of my pistols close together and not shifting or banging together. then the wieght becomes the issue. there's alot more on this topic, we can deduce alot from the artwork and common sense to come up with authentioc interpretations instead of trying to get everything you own on one outfit.

[Commodore Swab]

I supose we can agree that on a baldric holding pistols which is what this is geared towards it can safely be assumed that the smaller the pistol the better with reason. A derringer sized pistol would be going to the extreme due to its lack of firepower and accuracy.

Which would be more logical if you were to say wear 4 pistols on a baldric? A single line of pistols all facing the same direction oralternating direction. What problems would you have hanging them horizontally vs vertically. Boxlocks would solve the problem if you were to alternate direction and would also make them much more compact. Would the increased width nessary to hold the pistols warrant a single huge buckle double buckles or no buckles being sewn for one person and being sewn to fit?

Im just trying to narrow the focus for now to a single piece of garb rather than carrying weapons in general.

[gunner Gordon]

pistols, smaller, worn horizontaly, on a cartridge box sling worn around the neck only, box now sits middle of the waist, strap goes around neck so you have two straps coming down the front of you, pistols on both sides to balance weight waist belt goes over the two straps, just above ammo box to keep pistols and box from moving side to side. Hands and arms are free,this is the set up on the contemporary drawing of Blackbeard and others with the sea and/or a ship in the background. This is not a baldric, that many guns, or any guns on the front of a baldric will pull it out of place, this is a common musket type cartridge box and sling.

Edited May 19, 2009 by gunner Gordon

[Commodore Swab]

Excellent, that makes a lot of sense logically. It would be easy to wear and should be easy to access the pistols as well as the box. Would it be wise to place the box on a belt as well as having it hung. This way you could drop it over your head and wrap the belt around and buckle it. The belt would then keep everything from swinging as you turned. Or would this be unnessary? Left hand locks, box locks, let the locks rest against your chest or simply have them all pointed the same direction on both pieces? How much of a bucket would be required for a pistol to keep it from rotating?

[gunner Gordon]

You could put th belt on the box, but I tend to think that would cause the waist belt to move unnaturally, the box slightly below the belt, 2-3 inches say .It reallyt depends on your climbing and moving needs. Locks out, 1- comfort,2- sweat will rust your locks very quickly ,they sealed their frizzens by applying melted wax to the parting edges, no comment about the safe way to do that.tapered loops for the pistols with tie downs @ trigger guards? pics show buts in the center barrells out,but you would need left hand locks or box locks to achieve the look of contemporary drawings, remember, you most likely have a cutlass in yout right hand, and must draw and use your pistol with your left, at best, you are drawing and using right and left together. sound familiar ,marshall Dillon? PS pistol grip will tend to rotate down but not far due to shape of grip. hope this helps a bit, getting tired of rigs looking so western when our own were just if not more ingenius.

Edited May 19, 2009 by gunner Gordon

[Commodore Swab]

Discussing this does help rather than just trying analyze pictures and guess. I completly agree locks out, would left hand locks of been that common? Having all the pistols take the same charge would be very beneficial when it came to the cartridges. Would you agree that you would want a belt or something to keep everything from rotating? If so having the box hang below the belt shouldn't be a problem. This belt could also give you a place to hang a larger pistol should it be desired . . .

Intestering thought I had, if it was common to have a cutlass in your right hand and normally fire with the left then wouldn't we see more left hand locks?

[oderlesseye]

eye realize this thread is about how weapons were carried..However I would like to

see some feed back on the following.

Eye have spin on this that just might raise a brow..That is that Most "Pirates did not

even own a gun. On the Wydah..Only the Sun King was recovered to my knowlege..

I watch the same shows every one else does and I do not recall "Lots Of Guns ever Being recovered"

from any of the wrecks. If many of a pirate crewmember were force to join or die..why would you turn around and hand them a gun? This is just some foder for debate..

I do know that Guns were present on ships used in acts of Piracy GAOP but really..I think more trusted in thar cutlass..

Grenados, and intimadation. The picture/Image of every Pirate owning a pistol/Blunderbuss is fantisy in my opinion....

Edited May 20, 2009 by oderlesseye

[gunner Gordon]

You would think there were more left hand locks than we see, especially for dragoons and other mounted types, the writings of the period don't seem to reflect the idea of the "two handed" fighter except in the sense of like weapons. Oderless eye is much closer to the truth, pistols in buckets on the deck and cutlasses in barrels. Yet, there are so many pistols and blunderbusses around that originals are actually quite cheap by comparison to other firearms.

[Commodore Swab]

Just as compareable to when people would get together (off fighting at war or hunting) and take pictures of themselves with the biggest gun or largest buck. This is why I disagree with the thought of just droping pistols on a deck after using a single shot. Having said that, we know of certain pirates that wore multiple pistols mostly captains.

[gunner Gordon]

I don't believe in the drop it on the deck theory either. to support this there are Royal Navy instructions for use of the pistol in defense after it has been fired,ie using it as a head guard against sword blows. But then there are so many myths about almost every aspect of what we do, it is a form of job security that it will never be totally unraveled and therefor always ineresting. My most eye opening experiances have been on board the tall ships and trying to reconcile the pirate with the sailor, nothing like hands on to get a better perspective .

[theM.A.dDogge]

eye realize this thread is about how weapons were carried..However I would like to

see some feed back on the following.

Eye have spin on this that just might raise a brow..That is that Most "Pirates did not

even own a gun. On the Wydah..Only the Sun King was recovered to my knowlege..

I watch the same shows every one else does and I do not recall "Lots Of Guns ever Being recovered"

from any of the wrecks. If many of a pirate crewmember were force to join or die..why would you turn around and hand them a gun? This is just some foder for debate..

I do know that Guns were present on ships used in acts of Piracy GAOP but really..I think more trusted in thar cutlass..

Grenados, and intimadation. The picture/Image of every Pirate owning a pistol/Blunderbuss is fantisy in my opinion....

worked the whydah excibit in chicago....they still have many "rust-rocks" toopen yet....many of these (thru x-rays) do show several more pistols

and in the exhibit...a SAWED OFF musket was recovered.....

[gunner Gordon]

eye realize this thread is about how weapons were carried..However I would like to

see some feed back on the following.

Eye have spin on this that just might raise a brow..That is that Most "Pirates did not

even own a gun. On the Wydah..Only the Sun King was recovered to my knowlege..

I watch the same shows every one else does and I do not recall "Lots Of Guns ever Being recovered"

from any of the wrecks. If many of a pirate crewmember were force to join or die..why would you turn around and hand them a gun? This is just some foder for debate..

I do know that Guns were present on ships used in acts of Piracy GAOP but really..I think more trusted in thar cutlass..

Grenados, and intimadation. The picture/Image of every Pirate owning a pistol/Blunderbuss is fantisy in my opinion....

worked the whydah excibit in chicago....they still have many "rust-rocks" toopen yet....many of these (thru x-rays) do show several more pistols

and in the exhibit...a SAWED OFF musket was recovered.....

any details on the sawed off musket? type, lenght sawed to? very interesting find.

[Capt. Sterling]

The sawed off Musket was loaded with a very fine shot in order to be used as crowd control regarding the slaves, when the ship was used as a slave transport.

[theM.A.dDogge]

any details on the sawed off musket? type, lenght sawed to? very interesting find.

what was interestin about it...was that it was sawed off from both ends!!

the entire but was sawed off(still showin rough cuts) to a more of a pistol grip....as well as the barrel to only 2' or so

[gunner Gordon]

was it possible to id the make and model, calibre, or a basic type?