Cheeky Actress Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) In the work of “The Virgin’s Pattern: in the Exemplary Life and lamented Death of Mrs. Susanna Perwick,” I noticed that “Mrs.” was the proper title then applied to ‘respectable unmarried females”. The title “Miss” – except in the case of very young girls - was being reserved for the “other sort of woman”. These days, Mrs. Is a proper title used for a married woman. Miss, of course, is used for young ladies. Therefore, when did the title rule(s) change? Edited April 1, 2009 by Cheeky Actress Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBrower Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I can see the logic a bit... a lady probably would have always belonged to a man "Mr's" as in Mister's woman.... and a woman who doesn't belong to a man (father, brother, husband etc) would not have the same title. But it is curious..... So what would a married woman be referred to as? Or was Mrs. Still acceptable? Interesting topic. =) Cook and Seamstress to the Half Moon Marauders Lady Brower's Treasures, Clothing and other treasures Hell Hath No Fury like the Wrath of a Woman... No that's it. She doesn't need a reason. www.myspace.com/halfmoonmarauders www.myspace.com/faerienoodle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Wot???? " Grettings my fine little strumpet" isn't proper???? ***Animal heads out the door before Cheeky has a chance to throw something*** Animal Buccaneer - Services to the highest bidder!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 New York Times Article Click on view full article "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theM.A.dDogge Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 SMACK!(&$^%!$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theM.A.dDogge Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 holy crap....i was about to post...when the wife ..."saw wot i was thinkin"....and SMACK!?!?...upside me head.......!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theM.A.dDogge Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 New York Times ArticleClick on view full article i think i am even more confused now!?! so are they sayin...that Miss and Miss....are two completley different words...with different orgins...one being used as a unvirtiuous woman....the other being a young maid?? and can be used correctly either way interchangabley??? ok...got it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Sea Trade Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I love to confound people with strange, archaic word meanings. Want to really blow peoples' minds? Point out that the word "girl" could originally mean either a young woman or a young man. Think today's teen boys would like to be called girls? Oh, the possibilities of deviltry are endless! Red Sea Trade In days of old when ships were bold just like the men that sailed 'em, and if they showed us disrespect we tied 'em up and flailed 'em, often men of low degree and often men of steel, they'd make you walk the plank alone or haul you 'round the keel. --Adam and the Ants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 'One day as I was talking with Weaver in the street, who should come by, but Captain Joseph Smith: How do ye do Mr. Weaver, says he? O your servant, Captain, your servant, says Mr. Weaver: Sir, says the Captain, I am very glad to see you; Pray, let us go and take a bottle together; with all my heart, says Mr. Weaver: and your servant Mrs. Edwards, says he; your servant, Madam, says the Captain; and your servant, gentlemen, said I; and so they went to the tavern.' From the evidence for Sarah Edwards at the trial of Brigstock Weaver and William Ingrams, 1725 Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyNell Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Sterling interesting article - thanks for posting that link “PIRACY, n. Commerce without its folly-swaddles, just as God made it.” Ambrose Bierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898. Miss, Mistress, Mrs. (masteress, lady-master). Miss used to be written Mis, and is the first syllable of Mistress; Mrs. is the contraction of mistress, called Mis’ess. Even in the reign of George II. unmarried ladies used to be styled Mrs.; as, Mrs. Lepel, Mrs. Bellenden, Mrs. Blount, all unmarried ladies. (See Pope’s Letters.) 1 Early in Charles II.’s reign, Evelyn tells us that “lewd women began to be styled Misse;” now Mistress is more frequently applied to them. (See LAD.) "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) FWIW... at least it might give you a place to look... October 21, 1999 Miss, Mrs., Ms. Charity Terry-Lorenzo wrote: In college one of my women's studies professors explained that the title "Mrs." or "Missus" came from the possessive "Master's". No one else I've spoken to out of college knows about this origin and I was hoping you could tell me if this is correct or not. If it's not correct, where does "Missus" as a title for a married woman originate? My dictionary tells me that it comes from "Mistress" but that does not currently refer to a married woman (rather to the "other" woman and several other meanings that are not quite "a married woman"). Please help clear this up for me. You're on the right track, but your professor got the genders confused! The titles Miss and Mrs. are both abbreviations of the word mistress. The missis (or the missus) is a dialectal or informal term for one's wife, or the mistress (female head) of a household. The pronunciation (MISS-iz, MISS-is) reflects an altered pronunciation of mistress. The word mistress had many meanings in Middle English, some of which are still familiar today: female head of a household, goddess, sweetheart, expert in some occupation, teacher, and governess. Basically, mistress referred to a woman who had expertise, power, and control. But it was also used as a title of courtesy when addressing an unmarried or married woman. The sense to which you refer, the 'other woman; the woman who occupies the place of wife' came into English about 1600. The abbreviation or shortened form miss was first used in 1645 (in John Evelyn's Diary) to mean 'a concubine; a kept mistress'. About twenty years later, Samuel Pepys first used the term as a capitalized title before the name of a girl or unmarried woman. Around the same time, John Dryden first used Miss as a term of address. There are also examples in which it referred to a female baby. The abbreviation Mrs. was first used in 1615 before the name of a married woman, as it is today. However, to confuse matters, it was also the abbreviation of mistress in all the many senses of that word, and it also distinguished an unmarried woman from a child: "Mrs. Veal was a maiden gentlewoman." (Daniel Defoe, The History of Colonel Jack) The male equivalent of mistress was master, which meant, among other things, 'male head of a household'. In the 16th century, master changed to mister and the abbreviation Mr. arose to identify a man but not his marital status. So it appears that the uses of Mr. and Mrs. were somewhat parallel until the 19th century. At that time, Mrs. began to refer only to a married woman. Many people have asked us about the abbreviation Ms. Surprisingly, it was first used as early as 1949, in Mario Pei's The Story of Language. It may be a blend of Miss and Mrs. Words@Random Edited April 2, 2009 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 your servant, Madam, says the Captain; and your servant, gentlemen, said I; and so they went to the tavern.'From the evidence for Sarah Edwards at the trial of Brigstock Weaver and William Ingrams, 1725 Ran across something in I believe it was Everyday Life in Early America by David Hawke, a so-so book, that married women of better class would be address as madame instead of mrs. but they don't give any dates as to when this became common. It does state that in America, a farmer was addressed as Goodman and his wife Goodwife, but specifically states farmer as opposed to the yeoman/working class. Mister and Mistress was reserved for higher ranking. Now a Goodman could be addressed as Mister if he was chosen as a justice of the peace, something that could happen in the colonies but not back in England. Unfortunately not very specific. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Check out some of the Verney letters as well. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) Thank you everyone for their input and references! Though the use of these titles may have began in the 17th Century, it is obvious that with the change of social class and status, so did the titles (the Modern Era). I am sure that it did take some time for it to 'catch up' with the Colonies. Captain, when was the book,” Everyday Life in Early America”, by David Hawke written? I have found, "Memoirs of the Verney Family" on line. It should be an interesting read. Edited April 2, 2009 by Cheeky Actress Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 amazon carries the Hawke book, they can tell you the date, I do not have it with me "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 I love to confound people with strange, archaic word meanings. Want to really blow peoples' minds? Point out that the word "girl" could originally mean either a young woman or a young man. Think today's teen boys would like to be called girls? Oh, the possibilities of deviltry are endless! Wow! Them would be fighting words these days for any poor youthful boy at high school level. Any example/proof of this, Red Sea Trade? Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 Please correct me if I am wrong. Refering to my Persona's Goody Bess Hagardy - Indentured Servant - Widowed, Middle-Age...In England addressed as Miss and in the Colonies as Goody? Lilly McKinney - Actress - Single, unmarried, Middle-sort - In England addressed as Mrs. (Mistress) and in the Colonies as ??? Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 amazon carries the Hawke book, they can tell you the date, I do not have it with me Thank you...will do. Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 Wot???? " Grettings my fine little strumpet" isn't proper???? ***Animal heads out the door before Cheeky has a chance to throw something*** Animal Animal/Maddogge... Remind me to make sure you two don't gather together at the Pirate Pub down at PIP this Winter. You two think Waaaay to much alike! Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) Please correct me if I am wrong.Refering to my Persona's Goody Bess Hagardy - Indentured Servant - Widowed, Middle-Age...In England addressed as Miss and in the Colonies as Goody? Lilly McKinney - Actress - Single, unmarried, Middle-sort - In England addressed as Mrs. (Mistress) and in the Colonies as ??? well from what little I am seeing at the moment... Goody applied to the yeoman class as well in England but don't know when the term ran out.. the actress could be addressed as Mrs. or Mistress... and I haven't found, not that I am looking hard mind you, anything that specific regarding the colonies as far as what an actress would be considered. Keep doing your research and give Colonial Williamsburg a call... they have players down there and a number of period theatricals from the later 18th century... Hmmm going to Hampton on Tuesday or Monday next week maybe I will stop in and ask some questions but don't hold yer breath Edited April 2, 2009 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 Yes, Captain I see that by 1560, the title "Goody" was an abbreviation of goodwife, a lowly courtesy address to a married Christain woman...both in England and in the Colonies. As for the Gentle Woman's title here in the States...nothing as of yet. Very well...and thank you if you remember! Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumba Rue Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Well I guess 'hey wench' to Cheeky Actress isn't going to work...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 Well I guess 'hey wench' to Cheeky Actress isn't going to work...... For Bess...yes, she'd turn around and give you a look... As for Lilly McKinney...she's probably not even respond to your calling. Yet, it doesn't mean that she didn't hear you! Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Now Rumba call her a woman of the town.. ye'll get her attention and quickly although her reaction will not be pleasant. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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