wool-- specific NAME / KIND

[lady constance]

i was wondering specifically WHAT kind of wool you all purchase for sailors short jackets, womens mantuas, skirts.....i am lookig for its name!!!!

melton? pickney? boiled?

i bought boiled wool for sailors jackets { and found out WHERE i bought it from is HERE where we LIVE--- i DO plan on marching to their doors and seeing if they will allow me to SEE and purchase and save myself 10 bucks shipping across 6 LOCAL zip codes.........

i just cant even imagine using a wool suiting for a sailors short jacket--- am i wrong in this assumption?......... summer weight- OR- winter weight { actually have not seen winter weight wool here in my locale in YEARS.........

and also wondering, has anyone lined a sailors jacket with summer weight wool? { i can see doing that ! looks fab in my minds eye}

and ONE more question--- period blankets of wool-- any particular fashion of binding the edges? stitch type? { blanket stitch i am guessing}

thank all of you for reading this...

[michaelsbagley]

i was wondering specifically WHAT kind of wool you all purchase for sailors short jackets, womens mantuas, skirts.....i am lookig for its name!!!!

melton? pickney? boiled?

Not an easy question to answer because unfortunately more often than not names are NOT standardized in the fabric industry, so one company's "broadcloth" is another company's "flannel" etc. And even worse is the period names have been re-used and quite often for something other than what they were used for in period.

i just cant even imagine using a wool suiting for a sailors short jacket--- am i wrong in this assumption?......... summer weight- OR- winter weight { actually have not seen winter weight wool here in my locale in YEARS.........

There really is no evidence to prove or disprove the use of the period equivalent of modern suiting wool for sailor's jacket,s (that I know of), but I agree with you in that it doesn't seem correct.

and also wondering, has anyone lined a sailors jacket with summer weight wool? { i can see doing that ! looks fab in my minds eye}

I have a heavy wool justacorp I lined in light weight wool. It worked wonderfully.

and ONE more question--- period blankets of wool-- any particular fashion of binding the edges? stitch type? { blanket stitch i am guessing}

I haven't researched blankets at all, but my guess is that your guess of blanket stitching would be correct.

[Patrick Hand]

and ONE more question--- period blankets of wool-- any particular fashion of binding the edges? stitch type? { blanket stitch i am guessing}

In one of The Books of Buckskining there is a chapter on the history of wool blankets... unfortunately, my copy is in storage..... I halfway remember something about blankets being woven two at a time, and then torn into the two blankets, with the raw end just left that way.... but I'd have to check again to make sure I'm remembering it correctly.....

I made two jackets, One is made from an old gray Navy blanket, and the other (the one I wore to PiP) is a lighter blue wool, lined with linen... The blue one is hot enough... so I don't try to wear the heavy gray one at PiP.

[lady constance]

fabrics DO have a name-- but i suppose that only if you are in the design and fashion industry would one knows its correct name... meaning, those of us to love hancock fabrics and jo annnes have to know the fabric names/contents and weave better than the people who work there!--if only they would give us the genus species type of info!! { have a lovely book on textiles from good will that describes the process-- old one and new ones-- it even gives electron micrscope pics of the real cotton. wool/ silk/ linen threads and the new viscose, polyester, rayon--- VERY INTERESTING! it speaks of looms-- the many types varieties and so on.... it is realy the history of fabric all in one concise volume!!}

i bought 8 yards of boiled wool { this crud must have been made in china, not napping it as wel as it could have been}..

i washed it and dried it-- did not lose too much as far as yardage....but NEVER in my life have i ever seen a dryer SPIT lint FLUFF.... shop vac'ing it out will have to be done...!! { i could make PAPER with this fluff!!--get out my paper making stuff!!}

going to use it anyway.....it seems sturdy and period correct........????????

now it is the pattern-- RH.........the sleeves are throwing me fits!--i have done it in a 55 linen 45 cotton{ comments not wanted as to PC subject--i am doing the piratical thing of using what is on hand--scabbard in hand to those with less than nice words,caustic words}, and my intention was to make one, and then use it for lining the real wool one { sew it inside out for the lining}........ i have even flat felled the linen ones seams......ARGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!-- now i DO have expereince with sleeves having to match the correct arm hole........ and my markings are true to the pattern........

WHAT IN GODS NAME AM I DOING WRONG? i am beginning to think it is the pattern and not the seamstress....nope i KNOW.......

can some one add WORDS to explain the process????????

Mickey-- i know you have used the RH pattern for such { and i note, we did make the sleeves larger size as instructed by fellow users}

and Patrick, i like that you made your own pattern...i intended to do the same, but my dearest husband saw fit to order the Rh pattern hoping to releive my adjusting the butterick pirates of teh carribean pattern......any advice?

[michaelsbagley]

Okay,

For the RH pattern sleeves, I always use the correct size arm peices with the correct size body peices... and depending on how deep I am doing the seams, I more often find the sleeve almost too big to fit into the arm hole. I can only imagine how much more of a pain in the butt it would be to use a larger sized sleeve piece than the body peice!!! I have to doubt and question whoever gave you that advice.

Usually I deepen the seam along the arm by anywhere from quarter of an inch to a half inch for the last few inches of the arm approaching the arm pit to help fit over sized sleeves into the body, and this works for me. If you have cut (for example) a size 46 or 48 sleev for a size 42 or 44 body, this will likely not work for you. Although the design of the coat was not intended to do this, a solution you could use is to add some small pleats or gathers to help fit the oversize arm. I would suggest placing any gathers or pleats (if you do this) at the back so it doesn't impede movement. But IF you choose to go the pleat or gather route, note it will not likely correct, nor will it likely feel correct to the wearer.

As for boiled wool, I thought wool was boiled to close to weave, and as such would likely not knap? At least that makes sense in my mind.

[Patrick Hand]

As for boiled wool, I thought wool was boiled to close to weave, and as such would likely not knap? At least that makes sense in my mind.

Felting.... closes up the weave so it is tighter and thicker......

I cheat, and use the washing machine set on high, and then dry it on high.... the wool shrinks like crazy, but I figure it ain't going to shrink anymore... ever again.... it also makes it thicker....

[LadyBrower]

So is it best to try to order swatches to be able to see/ feel the fabric when ordering online? What qualities should a naive little lady such as myself look for in a wool for breeches or coat?

Thank you!

[michaelsbagley]

Wow, I'm feeling some heavy duty and recent Deja Vu here.... (click on the link to see this same discussion from last week)

At the time in history that we call the GAoP, most weave's of wool have been invented and are used. Basket Weave/Plain Tabby weaves are a very safe and sure bet, either in a tight weave, or loose (but not too loose weave) and either smooth/worsted or felted/fulled/fuzzy. Most Twills are good, but Garbandine (which in my opinion looks like some twills) is one to avoid if you are going to be totally correct, although I have made at least one piece of my garb from garbendine (and no one has said a word about it, or would have likely noticed had I not mentioned it here). Avoid wool crepe like the plague, the stuff is soooo thin and transparent it has no place in clothing, specially historical clothing... although it might be okay to use for flag bunting (although it is heavier than flag bunting as far as I know).

Thicker/denser and heavier wools tend to be more correct for working class clothing, whereas finer suiting weights (in the appropriate weave's) are better for mid to upper class wear.

Some good wool sources that I have used...

B. Black and Sons, either the coating weight (for heavier clothing) or the flannel is fine.

Denver Fabrics has a ton of wools, most good, some bad, but they do sell swatches for cheap (order 1/8th of a yard) you will likely need to order around 10 swatches to make it worth your while for the shipping and what not.

Woolrich Fabrics sell great stuff, but only do bulk orders (15 yards or more?). The Fibre arts stuff is better, but the "Civil War" wools will do if you can ignore a scant 15% artificial fibres in your 85% wool. A lot of vendors (such as William Booth Draper) carry the Woolrich wools for almost twice the price, but by shopping through sutlers, you are saved the hassle of having to buy 15 yards plus.

Renaissance Fabrics has some cool looking stuff, although I have not bought from them yet, their prices seem okay (not the best, but not the worst) but their selection of wools seems good. Sroll down to the bottom left of the page for the wools.

And there you have my favourite sources and two cents worth.

Would a moderator be able to and/or willing to merge this thread with the Fabrics Discussion from last week? As long as no one objects that is.

[Capt. Sterling]

Having sewn 18th century coats for over a period of 30 years, the sleeves from the pattern should be bigger than the armholes. There should be no pleats or gathers or tiny tucks, as the sleeve head/cap should be arranged to fit... remember there is no tailoring in sleeves at this time period... my reason for stating in another thread that one really does need to know the difference in sewing techniques from the different time periods... the sleeve head once arranged correctly in the armhole must be trimmed away after sewing because there should be at least 1/2 " or more in access. One does not see sleeve cap/heads formed and set until the 19th century... so do not think that the sleeve will or should naturally line up perfectly with the armhole.

Problem I have found with RH coat patterns, although a whole lot better than the gowns and breeches/trouser patterns is that in some of them the actual sleeve does not fit the armhole being too small... for instance the Riding habit, was almost an 1 inch too small for the armhole leaving a gap. Now if she has corrected this since I tested her patterns then all the better...

The main thing to remember when setting sleeves is that the seams do not fall with the shoulder and side seam. The sleeve seams fall toward the front and back of the coat, then fit the underarm and save all the adjusting for the cap by arranging it until it does fit the armhole.... do not opt for a smaller sleeve because then the sleeve itself my not fit the gent's arm. I would not go over board in using too much of a larger sleeve either.... just the next size up, which should only be adding 1/2" at best.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[michaelsbagley]

I am beginning to think any pressumptions about RH patterns is a bad idea, as there were (as far as I have been able to figure) some revisions done when I first started buying the patterns (as the early pattern I have are different from the ones I bough months later), and it seems further revisions have been made, as some of the newest patterns I have seen now include dotted lines for the seam allowances (something none of my patterns have).

I agree with you on the point that sleeves should be a LITTLE larger than the sleeve hole and some fussing to fit should be required, in my experience of the RH patterns coat (and I have made numerous coats from at least 4 of the coat patterns) the patterns accomodate for the correct SLIGHT oversizing of the sleeve to arm hole. Going to a larger size sleeve based on the patterns I have used would seem very worng to me (again this me having used every single RH pattern from the GAoP except the Great Coat and Brandenburg).

[Capt. Sterling]

good to hear she has been making the corrections, was a bone of contention when I worked with her on testing patterns...

I have the original patterns so hopefully my complaints are a thing of the past, although I have not seen that on the stays, gowns and breeches yet, but I have always found it much easier to make something a slight bit larger and take it in, than to add fabric to it later when you find out, gee its just too small.. especially when certain patterns have a history of not fitting correctly in numerous time periods...

I certainly have not invested in more of them, nor do I recommend them due to the fact that for that price, it should fit closer than they do... I also know what the problem is but some folks just won't listen... so for all the work redrafting a purchased pattern I would rather just enlarge directly from an original from Waugh or Arnold. Now I have said most of RH men's coats and waistcoat patterns, at least for GAoP are a pretty decent pattern... I still don't use them as the originals have fuller skirts etc...

[LadyBrower]

Wow, I'm feeling some heavy duty and recent Deja Vu here.... (click on the link to see this same discussion from last week)

Sorry! I am dense, and have been having a lot of stress over order fabric since ordered the wrong thing last time! As usual, thank you for your help.

[michaelsbagley]

Wow, I'm feeling some heavy duty and recent Deja Vu here.... (click on the link to see this same discussion from last week)

Sorry! I am dense, and have been having a lot of stress over order fabric since ordered the wrong thing last time! As usual, thank you for your help.

Your not dense, if you were bored enough you could go back and count the times I asked the same question in different words in a short period of time... I guarantee you will find the count higher... Please don't feel discouraged my saying that, I only point the duplication out in hopes a Moderator may join the threads to keep the info together, and in case there was some good information in the other thread that hasn't been reposted.

Don't sweat your choice of fabric, it really isn't worth it, I know for a fact that most of the re-enactors that have the highest reputations have their fair share of garb with blended fibres or weaves that aren't 100%, myself first and foremost amongst them, although I am always striving to improve.

[LadyBrower]

Thanks. =)

Lady Constance, how's your jacket coming along now? That is one of the many things on my to do list. lol.

[Capt. Sterling]

Woolen: cloth made of carded short-stapled wool fibers. After weaving, the cloth was fulled or shrunk to make it denser and heavier. Broadcloth was England's traditional fine woolen manufacture. The soft fluffy fibers of carded wool were also suitable for knitting.

Worsted: Lightweight cloth made of long-stapled combed wool yarn. The name was derived from the village of Worstead near Norwich, a center for worsted weaving. The smooth, shiny fibers were suitable for embroidery and indeed were synonymous with the word crewel, or crewel yarn.

Witney: A heavy, loose woolen cloth, or coating with a nap made at Witney in Oxfordshire. In 1677, Robert Plot wrote that blankets were made at Witney of "ordinary and middle" wool. When mixed with "the courser Locks of Fleece-wool, a sort of Stuff they call Duffields" is made. "Of their best Tailwool they make the Blankets of 6 Quarters broad, commonly called Cuts, which serve Seamen for their Hammocks; and of their worst they make Wednell [wadmol] for Collar-makers, Wrappers to pack their Blankets in, and Tilt-cloths for Bargemen."

Welsh Cotton: A loosely woven woolen cloth resembling flannel. Macpherson referred to a 1566 statute which states that "the trade in Welsh woollen cloth and lining, commonly called Welsh cottons, frises, and plains had for a long time been considerable" in Shrewsbury, a town near the Welsh border. The Aspinwall Records show the importation of Welsh cotton into Boston as early as 1650.

Broadcloth: Made of carded wool in plain weave and fulled after weaving. The finest broadcloths were made in the West of England where they were known by a variety of names. Broad scarlet cloths called strouds were a specialty of a town of that name where the river water was thought to account for a particularly fine color; medleys, dyed in the wool and with colors mixed before spinning, were made in Gloucester.

Cotton: a term used to designate certain woolen cloths from at least the fifteenth century, so one must be cautious in reading the term. At the end of the sixteenth century, Manchester was "eminent for its woollen cloth or Manchester cottons."

Flannel: Made of woolen yarn "slightly twisted in the spinning, and of open texture, the objects in view being to have the cloth soft and spongy, without regard to strength... All the sorts are occasionally dyed, though more usually sold white. Flannels are bleached by the steam of burning sulphur, in order to improve their whiteness." Swatches of Silesian, English and printed flannel dating from 1690, among the municipal papers of Cracow, are illustrated by Endrei.

Kersey: A cheap, coarse woolen cloth of twill weave classed among Old Draperies. The word originally from the East Anglian town of that name. An act of 1552 enumerated various kinds of kerseys, such as ordinary, sorting, Devonshire (called washers or wash-whites), checks, dozens and straits. Kersery possessed admirable qualities for keeping out wet and cold and was, therefore, in great demand throughout many parts of Europe, especially among the poorer classes. It was used for overcoats, and large quantities were turned into garments for the armies of Europe.

from Textiles in America 1650-1870, Florence M. Montgomery

I could go on as there are more types of woolens listed in the book... I did not see Melton at all I'm afraid...

so the problem being that many times names have changed over the years..

[Patrick Hand]

Yeah... but unfortunately... go into Jo- Ann's (or similar) and ask them. for say...... Flannel and see what they show you.........

Ye gotta kind know wot yer shoppin fer........

(yeah... I think we already covered this... but I been drinkin'.... so it don't count....... )

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Great thread... You guys are doin wonders for the hobby... keep up the good work!

GoF

[Capt. Sterling]

William Booth, Draper is very good with his fabrics...for those looking for more period examples. Very knowledgeable about the stuff he sells. He mostly deals with Am.Rev War but he has things we can use as well...

http://wmboothdraper.com/

[lady constance]

!!!!&*%^_)*&%^V(*M_)R#^%(_+_((*&^^$#@!!!!!!!!!!!!

SIGH!!!!!!! well-- the RH patterns that my loving husband ordered have NO marking lines that said newer patterns are supposed to now have-- meaning lady constance must reinvent AND redraft a 30 freaking dollar pattern!!!!!

silas is determined to make it work... i suggested cutting the arm hole bigger at the armpit end of the fronts and backs and just keep cutting it til the darn sleeve ACTUALLY FITS into the hole!!!!!!!!!!! we are just hissing about having to do the work that OUGHT to come with a 30 dollar pattern............

SCREW THAT!!! i went and got out my jack sparrow costume pattern, traced onto one inch square drafting material and adjusted for the sleeve shape-- i am drafting on lower arms correct shaping-- because the TOP OF the arm holes from jack sparrow costume WORK!!! i have peiced this jacket together about 4 times.......I SIMPLY redrafted the shape of the bottom and elbow--and added slanted side vents to the bottom of the jacket.........it is cut out of a summer weight wool in dark gray/ almost black with a slight basket weave pattern of differing darker colored threads. lining too, of linen that i shall dye......

i HIGHLY reccomend that jack sparrow pattern-- take agooooooooooooooood long look at the sleeves... ABSOLUTE PERIOD CORRECT sleeve seaming{ seams on the sides of the arms}......... you do have to adjust the bottom of the sleeves for a more correct GaOP time period.. but good God, { and He is very good!!!}--save yourself purgatory time and fleeting thoughts of knowing that anger and impatience ARE slight reminders of what hell is going to be like---NEVER ENDING FEELINGS OF ANGER AND IMPATIENCE!!!!!!!!

hell for me would be a RH pattern and having to make 20million jackets with THOSE patterns and having to make them fit!!!!!!!!!!!! { vent!}

and then, i was looking at my other patterns..... i have a matrix long coat pattern pattern{ think parish priest cassock pattern }that i can make the gunnister jacket out of........ shorten--- instead of long . combo of gunnister and quintfall hill jacket.......... absolute perfect match.... i will have to trace the pattern peices together as 2 piece converted to one piece front and a make the back from a 2 peice to a one piece .... and simply recut the sleeves to make the seams like those of GaOP........

...poor silas...i told him i NO longer wish to know any more about what HELL must feel like than i have already expereinced trying to use those RH patterns........

i am soooooooooo glad that you ALLLLLLLLLL wrote about wool......THANK YOU! from the bottom of my heart.....

know what i think?

i think we need to plan a sewing convention............ find some place in the middle of where we all live... meet there and share and sew and get everyones stuff done.......THAT IS WHAT I THINK.......!!

so--

what say you all??????? where is the middle of all of us?

lady constance

[LadyBrower]

Wow, Lady. I will strive to stay on your good side. Even through the computer that was a frightful rant. Good luck with the projects, I'd love to see some pictures.

I used the jack sparrow pattern for my roomate's waist coat. It didn't turn out half bad, I just sort of put it on the fabric and drew on any adjustments (The collar, the length...) and went from there.

At this point, his breeches were not finished (and he was lacking stockings. lol). They are done in stupid Gabardine. I decided I hate that stuff.... I don't like the texture.

[silas thatcher]

just need to play with the pattern a bit more and figure out what we are missing, or how to make the pattern work... others have done it, so can we !!

[michaelsbagley]

just need to play with the pattern a bit more and figure out what we are missing, or how to make the pattern work... others have done it, so can we !!

The FIRST piece of early modern garb I ever made was fro the RH pattern, prior to that I had only made early medieval stuff from squared geometric patterns.... I admit to having quite a bit of difficulty with my first set of arms, but I got them to work. I am as a general rule baffled by the amount of trouble people claim to have the RH patterns, as when I started making early modern garb (GAoP stuff) I had no significant sewing skills or costuming abilities. Today, almost three years later I get frequent compliments on how great my historic clothing is, and yet ALL of my skill and ability with historic costuming is a DIRECT RESULT of my use of RH patterns.

As a further note, while I have in recent months started to draft my own patterns from various sources (mostly Arnold and Waugh, but I have referenced other archaeological line drawing and images), I only feel I have learned the ability to draft patterns in this nature by the regular use of RH patterns and historical note.

As a last comment, I think it is safe to say that not everyone learns in the same manner and respond to certain verbage in the same manner. So perhaps the RH patterns are not the best for everyone... But I am growing INSANELY WEARY of the constant slamming of them, as I have no doubt in my mind that there are some people out there that WOULD BENEFIT from their use that may never try them because of the overbearing negativity of what is still only a handful of peoples incompatability (perhaps less than a handful).

A note to the Moderator(s) of this forum... That kind of negativity HAS been used in the past on this forum, and almost every time addressed by the moderator, I am baffled by the complete lack of interference when it comes to Kass and RH. I have no issue with negative feedback on products that some people have troubles with, but the frequency and intensity of the comments directed at RH by such a few individuals has turned this into something a heck of a lot more than an honest negative review.

[silas thatcher]

aw heck, michael... she's just voiceing some frustration !! the pattern will work out... i am committed to seeing to that... it's just another learning curve for us..

[lady constance]

i dont hate/ malign/slander/ calumniate/ gossip about people..........i wont and have not nor will i ever, EVER say ill of a person.........we must seperate the " deed " from the " deeds creator/author/inventor"........

i beg of you to consider NOT crossing that line in your mind that says""" to notice the faults of an object means that it has ANYTHING to do with the PERSON who made the said object.......''''''

a reference to a material objects lacking qualities has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PERSON WHO CREATED IT! nor is it a reference to, or judgement of the person who created it........

think LOGIC........

but am i to assume we cannot address false/ lies/ false claims or faulty products?

am i to assume we cannot address ISSUES we are having.....with MATERIAL OBJECTS that have no soul or living as a being? { going metaphysics here!!}

products versus their creators............

people versus deeds.......

if a child hits another child or destroys an object, we dont "hate" the child, we are not even disgusted with the child-- WE "HATE" THE bad BEHAVIOUR!" { consider the difference between the two thoughts!!}

if we run across a make and model of car that simply does not perform well, we certainly dont reccomend that another person purchase that make and model of car { perchance do you know anything about corvairs?}........why would we want to see that person suffer?

and if the faults of windows 95 was not made manifest and addresssed, would there BE windows 98? windows xp? windows vista?

the patterns offence is one of OMISSION... not of commission..... it is not what is there that is offensive, it is what is NOT there...it is what it lacks , not what it possess.......

what has this to do with the CREATOR / AUTHOR/ MAKER of the pattern??

quite simply, this has nothing nothing nothing to do with the maker of this pattern.......

perhaps that was not so clear.... i shall re-read my post and see where i erred in transmission of verbal information that could have been miscontrued as such.......

pretty clear MY frustration... YAH i have good verbal skills....

i will try to remember my responsibility to use MORE words, and MORE clearly!!...

i sure hope this clears things up....

PAX,

lady constance

and if ever there is a decision between being "right "or being""" LOVING""", i CHOOOOOOSE to be LOVING.....which often brings one to ask " truly, what IS loving?"... indulgence? over protecction? honesty with love? aiiyyy the work of a lifetime...

[callenish gunner]

I have sewn for most of my life (well over 55 years at least) and I have used all sorts of patterns. It is my choice to never again buy or use one of Reconstructing Histories patterns; the sizing and instructions were lacking is all that I choose to say about them. I feel as though I wasted my time and fabric for the four pairs of slops and the two frock coats(justacorps) I made from them. But that is just my opinion (the rise of the slops didn't even come up to the top of my or my sons pubic bone) I agree with the expressed opinion that having to redraft a $25-30 pattern is not acceptable for my money's worth. If I'm doing the drafting of a pattern I will use the Waugh book or other period piece sources or just use the references out there and just draft my own. This is not meant as an attack on any individual or their veracity or their chosen profession, but as a consumer I have the right to express my opinion as to the results that I have found about the use of a commercial product. That is the consequences of putting yourself out there in a position of trade; there will be"satisfied customers who will tell 10 friends they are happy with a product and there are those dissatisfied customers who will tell EVERYBODY"

Edited March 1, 2009 by callenish gunner