capnwilliam Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Here be a topic I don't think anyone's mentioned...does anyone have any depictions or references to pirates carrying powder horns? I DON'T mean instances of soldiers or marines functioning as landing parties, Capt. Morgan-style inland invasions, or gun crew captains using powder horns for priming. I'm referring to pirates carrying horns as part of their everyday weaponry, or when engaged in or contemplating a boarding action of another vessel. "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 They wouldn't have carried them in a boarding action - no time to reload in a hot n' heavy deck battle. That's why pirates were known for heavily arming themselves with sometimes a score of pistols stuffed in every belt, sash, bandolier and pocket they had. Once they were fired the butts made excellent clubs for crackin' skulls! Course I'm sure they had plenty of powder horns on their own ship for loading and hunting while on shore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted January 11, 2004 Author Share Posted January 11, 2004 Them's my thoughts also, Joshua. Just wanted to know if ayone had any info to the contrary. Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 I was just looking at a bunch of woodcuts tonight of the various captains. Most of them are carrying a belly box for holding premade cartridge. Much easier and quicker than the horn. I would expect that most people carrying a firearm would carry cartridges in some sort of cartridge box. Matter of fact, one such box was found on the Wydah. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 I bet Bartholomew Roberts woulda killed for a modern day "fanny pouch" complete with adjustable straps and velcro flap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacon Frye Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 I bet Bartholomew Roberts woulda killed for a modern day "fanny pouch" complete with adjustable straps and velcro flap! But then he could have a Glock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted January 11, 2004 Author Share Posted January 11, 2004 Most interesting about the cartridge box, Hawkyns. So, here's evidence that while they might not have carried powder horns, they did carry provisions for reloading, as opposed to just carrying extra arms. Though I agree with Joshua that attempting to reload during a boarding action would have been ridiculous. Do you recall where you saw those woodcuts? Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 The book I was looking at last night was the Time-Life Seafarer series "Pirates". There are a whole series of woodcuts right at the front. But this morning I checked Angus Kostam's "The History of Pirates" which might be a bit more common in our libraries, and the woodcuts are in there, too. p103 Edward Teach- six pistols hung from the baldric on a cartridge box p104 Jack Rackham shoulder slung cartridge box on right hip p106-107 Bartholomew Roberts box worn in front from baldric p110 Charles Vane pistols slung from cartridge box baldric p131 Henry Every belly box worn with pistols in belt Most of these are from Johnson's "A General History of Pirates" and appear to be the work of the same artist. However- it is a primary source, and as such, I would expect the depictions to be accurate as seen from comtemporary eyes. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Seahawke Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Mr. Hawkyns. Is there any way you could put a picture of a cartage box on the site? Please if so it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much. Lady Cassandra Seahawke Captain of SIREN'S RESURRECTION, Her fleet JAGUAR'S SPIRIT, ROARING LION , SEA WITCH AND RED VIXEN For she, her captains and their crews are.... ...Amazon by Blood... ...... Warrior by Nature...... ............Pirate by Trade............ If'n ye hear ta Trill ye sure to know tat yer end be near... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Not too sure about posting pics- I'm officially designated 'Computer Challenged Luddite' but here are a few links to sutlers sites with pictures http://www.gggodwin.com/435.htm http://www.gggodwin.com/417.htm http://www.tuckahoetradingco.com/twc001b.jpg http://www.jarnaginco.com/French%20leather%20gear.htm The last one, the French boxes, are particularly typical of early pattern boxes Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Lasseter Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Aye, Hawkyns, I have a cartridge box very much like the one on the third link... Tho, I think it's smaller... Wonderful things they be... 'specially on the matter of safety these days... ain't never gonna load from a horn, 'cept maybe inta th' pan of a flinter... or matchlock... I used ta have a powder flask made of brass, trapizoid in shape for doin' ECW... happen to know of a source fer 'em? Truly, D. Lasseter Captain, The Lucy Propria Virtute Audax --- In Hoc Signo Vinces Ni Feidir An Dubh A Chur Ina Bhan Air "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." Deuteronomy 32:41 Envy and its evil twin - It crept in bed with slander - Idiots they gave advice - But Sloth it gave no answer - Anger kills the human soul - With butter tales of Lust - While Pavlov's Dogs keep chewin' - On the legs they never trust... The Seven Deadly Sins http://www.colonialnavy.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Seahawke Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Mr. Hawkyns: Many thanks for the information. Lady Cassandra Seahawke Captain of SIREN'S RESURRECTION, Her fleet JAGUAR'S SPIRIT, ROARING LION , SEA WITCH AND RED VIXEN For she, her captains and their crews are.... ...Amazon by Blood... ...... Warrior by Nature...... ............Pirate by Trade............ If'n ye hear ta Trill ye sure to know tat yer end be near... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted January 11, 2004 Author Share Posted January 11, 2004 Why is loading from the horn especially dangerous, but maybe less so into the pan, Dorian? Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Lasseter Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Aye Capnwilliam, Loadin' down th' barrel ye have a possibility of a glowing ember, or some such in th' barrel that could set off yer powder... ouch.... As fer in th' pan, much less chance o' that... And I usually clear my pan (using a pan wisk, and blowing out the debris) before pouring powder there, thus eliminating the possibility of a cook off there... I have seen someone have a pan cook off while they were pouring powder there, luckily they were pouring from a bottle (apostle) so it was only a small amount of powder that popped.... only reason this happened is they were trying to get as many shots off in under a minute, the third shot cooked off in the pan... I'm sure Master Hawkyns can offer ye even more insightfulness here as well... Safety First! Truly, D. Lasseter Captain, The Lucy Propria Virtute Audax --- In Hoc Signo Vinces Ni Feidir An Dubh A Chur Ina Bhan Air "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." Deuteronomy 32:41 Envy and its evil twin - It crept in bed with slander - Idiots they gave advice - But Sloth it gave no answer - Anger kills the human soul - With butter tales of Lust - While Pavlov's Dogs keep chewin' - On the legs they never trust... The Seven Deadly Sins http://www.colonialnavy.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted January 11, 2004 Author Share Posted January 11, 2004 Aye, this be plenty insightful, Mate Dorian! If a spark or ember were to flash into yer horn...well, I think we all get the picture; you'd be holding a bomb as it explodes. I reckon the safest thing is to use only prepared cartridges for both pan prmer and barrel charge. Charging both with a small priming horn might be next-safest alterantive. Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 When I make my cartridges, I put in an extra 5 grains. When I bite the cartridge, the first few grains go into the pan, before the main charge goes down the barrel. This is correct procedure from all the military manuals of the period. Under normal circumstances, you can prime with the same powder that you use in the main charge. I carry a small priming horn, 75-100 grains of FFFF for use if I just can't get the charge to go any other way. This procedure is the same for any musket I'm firing with cartridge, no matter what period. If I'm firing a matchlock and using a bandolier, then the priming bottle is small to start with. I do not ever follow the procedure of using 2 horns, one for the main charge and one to prime, even though that was common among early musketeers. It came back into service in the 18th century. If I'm carrying 2 horns, the powder goes into a measure before going down the bore. Either way, it means that I'm never holding more than a hundred grains or so over the muzzle or the touchhole, whether in a horn, a measure, or in a cartridge. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitman Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 My brother and I load his reproduction colt navy from a powder horn ( or given it's size more of a flask) that has a measure attached (ie a door blocks of the measure from the supply) I havent really given this part of the process as much thought as I should have untill I read this thread do you think we should change from this method and go to a seperate measure? THIS BE THE HITMAN WE GOIN QUIET Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Revolvers are different. You are not loading them while still hot from shooting (or you shouldn't be). When I was doing ACW, I carried 2 extra cylinders for my brass frame Remington .44 (colts, ptuii). That gave me the extra shots without rapid relaoding. Loading a revolver is more of a protracted procedure, cleaning, loading, wadding, and sealing the cylinders. If the cylinder is clean and cool, then having a left over spark is not an issue. If you are reloading hot, then yes, I'd definitely use a separate measure. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorg Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Just as a note, I have seen a small powder flask take off while being dumped down a barrel at at Rendesvous. Nobody got hurt, but it wasn't pretty. Dumping a horn down the barrel is rather like snuggling a black powder hand grendade up to yr cheek. This is called : natural selection..... :) Drop a kitten six feet, and she grins... Drop an elephant six feet, and ya gots yerself a mess ta clean up.... Sometimes bein' the biggest and most powerful is the LAST thing you wanna be..... Mad Ozymandias Zorg the Unsnottered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 Hawkyns, how many grains would you usually use for the main charge of a musket, for demo purposes? And how many for pistol? Seems as though even that 100 grain charge going off inadvertenly could be quite dangerous. (?) Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I generally use 1 1/2 times my caliber in grains, i.e. .50 cal weapon gets a 75 grain blank charge. Aye, Cap'n, it's dangerous. Black powder, like so many other weapons, is a balance of control. You take the appropriate precautions, balance the risks, but, in the final analysis, if you play with weapons, you cna get hurt. 100 grains or so can injure, but it is less of a risk than a half pound going off. I have had a 125 grain BP grenade simulator go off in my hand. Got bruises and a second degree burn, but that was it. One of my troops got careless and let his hand drift over the barrel of his carbine while we were on parade. The heat cooked off a round into his hand and he still has got all the powder burns out 5 years later. Black powder burns when not confined, so powder in a paper cartridge will fizzle and pop, but not give a real explosion. So it's a lesser risk, but is still a risk. As I tell my sword students, if you pick up a weapon and walk onto the field with it, you can get killed, no matter what protection you are wearing or how 'safe' the weapon has been made. Same with black powder. If you are not willing to take the risk, or if you are nervous handling powder, then perhaps firing is not for you. Everyone should have a healthy respect for live weapons, even a bit of paranoia. Weapons are made to kill, and repro weapons do the job just as efficiently as originals. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitman Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Thanks Hawkyns as always good advice and I am glad to have it. THIS BE THE HITMAN WE GOIN QUIET Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 Aye, good info as always, Hawkyns. 100 grains exploding won't take yer hand off, then; that's good to know. Aye, everything's a matter of risk analysis, ultimately. Nothing's really safe. You've just got to weigh the risk against the gain, or against your desire to perform the activity in question. Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 100 grains exploding won't take yer hand off, then; that's good to know. Capt. William Well, it shouldn't, but, as usual, there are caveats. It all depends how it's confined . In a paper cartridge, no. In a solid metal, or heavy horn, or even thick cardboard, container, it could do some serious damage. ya pays ya money, an' ya takes ya choice!! Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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