Sword Carriages

[michaelsbagley]

Okay, I've done a quick search, and between Twill and Thieve's Market, there have been a few decent discussions about sword carriages, but nothing as in depth as many other topics (or at least that I was able to find).

I found a few pages on the old "Mercury Clothing and Weapons" thread featuring Patrick Hand's Sword Belt

Then there is my sword belt...

Click here for a close up of the detail stuff

Which is based off the below line drawing from Swords and Blades of the American Revolution

I've made one of the above belts in black, but unfortunately I did not get any pictures of it before I passed it onto the person it was commisioned for.. Maybe if we are lucky that person might be kind enough to share some photos?

On page 33 of this PDF Document which is a facsimile copy of a 1701 officer's manual there is an artillerist who is clearly wearing a baldric, with what looks like a small sword draped from it.

I think I have some other solid references kicking around that I will try to dig up and post later... There is an early 18th century French sword belt that I can always seem to find images of online when I am not looking that I think would be well worth posting, and some others as well.

[blackjohn]

http://www.piratebrethren.com/french/frenchbelts01.jpg

(huzzah for me! I have a new home pc! hence... I haven't been online lately)

[michaelsbagley]

http://www.piratebrethren.com/french/frenchbelts01.jpg

(huzzah for me! I have a new home pc! hence... I haven't been online lately)

Cool, thanks BlackJohn... Do you have years to go with those sketches? And what wonderful book is that from that I need to seek out to add to my collection?

The top two look fairly similar to the one I posetd above except with funkier shaping in where the peices meet. Their rounded squared rather than just plan rounded ends. That crazy french..

[Rev.Sam]

Very nice!

How long did it take you to make Michael?

[michaelsbagley]

I've been using that one for the better part of a year so my memory of making it is kind of dodgey, but I think two to three hours would be pretty close.

The hardest part is actually the rivetting. My angle cutters are probably smaller than they should be for this job, and because I don't rivet too often I haven't bothered to spend the whopping $10 to $12 on a decent pair of 8 or 9 inch angle cutters.

[sutlerjon]

Funny you should be running this right now, I'm in the middle of copying yours... (sincerest form of flattery) and I'm extrapolating dimensions based on the photo you posted of your belt, and referring to the photo I took at PiP. What a pain in the backside!!

Jim

Check the top of the page on blackjohn post, I think the book is Firearms in Colonial America .... it's at the top of the page. I must confess I bookmarkes it several months ago.

Edited February 17, 2009 by sutlerjon

[michaelsbagley]

If memory serves me well, that buckle is from G Godney Godwin (Sutler of Mount Misery), and it is a 1.75 inch buckle, and I tend to cut the straps an 1/8 inch smaller than the buckle width for room to play. And I think all the parts are cut to the same width for simplicities sake. That said, if I was to make another one, I would proabbyl want to try and find the same buckle in 1.5 inch if possible.

Funny you should be running this right now, I'm in the middle of copying yours... (sincerest form of flattery) and I'm extrapolating dimensions based on the photo you posted of your belt, and referring to the photo I took at PiP. What a pain in the backside!!

Jim

Check the top of the page on blackjohn post, I think the book is Firearms in Colonial America .... it's at the top of the page. I must confess I bookmarkes it several months ago.

[sutlerjon]

Thanks, I picked up a couple of the 1 3/4" buckles from the other authentic sutler at PiP, I'm sad to say I don't remember his name.

It must be a trick of the angle on the page because I come with about a 1/4" difference in strap widths. It's OK, I'm almost ready to assemble. Just have to make the frog now.

I'm almost out of rivets, so I'll probably have to sew it, hate when that happens!

It's a prototype we'll see how it comes out and then I'll decide if it's going into production.

Jim

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

I know this has probably been discussed before, but I use copper rivets that come from Weavers leather supply. I get them by the boxfull and was wondering whether or not I should switch to brass ones. having horses and lots of tack to repair and modify over the years has made them a necessity around here. I normally don't get into the little intracacies of PC, but I'd like to know about the copper vs. brass points while on this topic.

Bo

[michaelsbagley]

I know this has probably been discussed before, but I use copper rivets that come from Weavers leather supply. I get them by the boxfull and was wondering whether or not I should switch to brass ones. having horses and lots of tack to repair and modify over the years has made them a necessity around here. I normally don't get into the little intracacies of PC, but I'd like to know about the copper vs. brass points while on this topic.

Bo

That's a really good question... All the evidence I have seen is pictoral, so that reveals... Nothing. But I do have a good supply of both brass and copper rivets so that if any information comes up proving one or the other I will be prepared.

[Rev.Sam]

I'll say this. From when I had to make leather armor for a play, I don't miss doing rivets

[blackjohn]

Check the top of the page on blackjohn post, I think the book is Firearms in Colonial America .... it's at the top of the page. I must confess I bookmarkes it several months ago.

Bingo. That's the book. Picked it up at the Smithsonian American History gift shop decades ago.

[sutlerjon]

I'm CW infantry centric in my leather and all the pics in Echoes of Glory, and stuff you see in photos, is all the copper rivets. As I've gotten deeper into the intricacies I've discovered that things were mostly sewn before 1860 ish. by the end of the war rivets were far more common and in some apps they were no longer sewn but were riveted exclusively. The rivets make the joint about 3X stronger, or so I've been told.

This is 1860 Naval Cutlass Scabbard that I did that's all rivets

I think I'm gonna stick to hand sewing for now, until as Mike says, we get more definitive info. What's right or wrong, I doubt if we can be terribly wrong either way.

I'm 'bout ready to start sewing my belt up after dinner.

Jim

[LadyBarbossa]

Nice scabbard.

Nicely done, Michael. I like how it holds a sword and even a dirk or some form of smaller bladed weapon so one can fight florentine style.

One thing I'm working on - and unfortunately it's on the backburner - is one of those sash-like baldrics. I've a purely decorative foil that is mighty lightweight I'm fitting for this type of baldric. Cause I doubt a cloth baldric would hold the weight of my massive saber.

Bastian had or has one and it looks FABULOUS!

~Lady B

[theM.A.dDogge]

Nice scabbard.

Nicely done, Michael. I like how it holds a sword and even a dirk or some form of smaller bladed weapon so one can fight florentine style.

One thing I'm working on - and unfortunately it's on the backburner - is one of those sash-like baldrics. I've a purely decorative foil that is mighty lightweight I'm fitting for this type of baldric. Cause I doubt a cloth baldric would hold the weight of my massive saber.

Bastian had or has one and it looks FABULOUS!

~Lady B

actually i believe those fabric baldrics had a canvas backing to it...therefore holding quite a bit more.....

[michaelsbagley]

Nice scabbard.

Nicely done, Michael. I like how it holds a sword and even a dirk or some form of smaller bladed weapon so one can fight florentine style.

One thing I'm working on - and unfortunately it's on the backburner - is one of those sash-like baldrics. I've a purely decorative foil that is mighty lightweight I'm fitting for this type of baldric. Cause I doubt a cloth baldric would hold the weight of my massive saber.

Bastian had or has one and it looks FABULOUS!

~Lady B

Since this is Twill the extra slot was originally designed and used for bayonets, in later colonial times sometimes a hatchet or small axe. Florentine was a style of the rapier era, which would have been over by about 100 years or more by the time the GAoP rolled around. I'm not saying fighting with two weapons never happenned during the GAoP, just saying as a practised "art" Florentine had gone the way of the rapier.

[Patrick Hand]

actually i believe those fabric baldrics had a canvas backing to it.

There is a picture of a painting that Kass posted somewhere in TWILL (maybe in the haversack/snapsack thread) showing a leather backed,cloth covered corded edged sling.... I think it was a game hanger, but the detail of the painting might be something worth checking out....

[Patrick Hand]

I found it....

https://pyracy.com/index.php?showtopic=9514&st=20

It's about half way down the page.... posted on Dec 19 2006

OK... they are Game bags, but look at how the straps were made.......

[michaelsbagley]

And my latest sword belt... Same as my old one with a basic decorative edge line.

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Wow - that's nice with the decorative edge - great work. Are you still or do you make these for other folks? If so I would really be interested in one. Let me know!

Thanks.

[michaelsbagley]

Wow - that's nice with the decorative edge - great work. Are you still or do you make these for other folks? If so I would really be interested in one. Let me know!

Thanks.

Yeah I am making them for sale if interested, but since this topic is suposed to be discussion rather than sales (which belongs in Thieve's Market) see your private messages.

[Commodore Swab]

I was just browsing along the internet and I came across this picture

http://www.pirates-cave.com/blackbeard1.jpg

I doubt this is PC but the question I had was . . .

What keeps the weight of the pistols from causing it to rotate around and hang with the pistols at the bottom?

[michaelsbagley]

I was just browsing along the internet and I came across this picture

http://www.pirates-cave.com/blackbeard1.jpg

I doubt this is PC but the question I had was . . .

What keeps the weight of the pistols from causing it to rotate around and hang with the pistols at the bottom?

I've wondered about that myself!

Most particularly with my bandolier of cartouches (also commonly called apostles), I've only worn them a few times but the weight of the more powder bottles on the front tends to make them hang unevenly... I know having actual lead shot in the pouch would likely make a bit of a difference, but I truly wonder how much, and if there is other methods.

I seem to recall the French having robbons on the shoulder their baldrics were worn over, but I can't an image clear enough to note whether the ribbons are a part of the suppost balancing system of the baldric or not.

Anyone have some practical experience or know of some period sources to shed more light on this situation?

[Capt. Sterling]

Have absolutely no clue as to where I read it years ago, but it was concerning shoulder knots as originally being used to hold baldrics in their place... and eventually they turned into the decorative knots in the late 17th century... but I cannot find it for the life of me, but it may be a place to start looking.... later on, which of course is little help here, during the Rev. War, regimentals had plain shoulder epaulets to hold belting in place.. but I am not seeing that earlier on... but again, maybe such info might help in the hunt...

[Gentleman of Fortune]

For sword belts, I would err on the side of "thinner". The french belt ensamble seems to be fairly large, but pictures of non soldier private purchase type belts are rather skinny. I think you could make a case for any belt 3/4" - 1" wide.

Here are a few period examples.

Admiral Jennings 1709

Bendbow 1701

Howel Davis

Just my two cents, your mileage may very

GoF