Pirate/Sailor speach

[MadL]

I suppose this would be a Capt'n Twill discussion?

I read it once ask'd if pirates really said "Huzza" or if that might be a 'Ren thing' or perhaps just fiction all together...well, I just ran aground on this, not quite GAoP but has a date o' September 1801 (did they have Ren Faire in 1801?):

The Sailor's Prayer - September 1801

(ye must click t' blow's 'er up then ye can read th' date hand marked below th' picture, as well as read th' script)

[RustyNell]

found this on the words origins...

looks like it is as old as 1573 it was used as a hoisting cry... makes sense to me the exhale on the pull (like you would do when lifting weights)... it seems to me it looks like it could have easily started with sailors, and then spread to mean a cheer. It makes sense to me that group vocalization was quite common in the sea fairing culture, as well sailors were hard drinking on land and might use some of the same group cheers used at sea on land... it may be the whole reason we use it as a "cheers" of sorts.

Oh another note regarding Huzza and "raising" a cheer... as huzzah may have been used for raising a heavy sail, it may be why we consider a cheer to "raise" someones spirits or why we "raise" a cheerie holding our glasses high...to lift the spirit of the crowd.... just a thought!

Glad you started this thread ..... I LOVE language!

Edited December 24, 2008 by RustyNell

[Animal]

The use of group vocalizations is well documented regarding seafaring. Often while raising an anchor or hauling sails, a cadence was was used to set the rythum of hauling or turning the capstan. I think it started when while rowing it set the rythum and timing of the set and pull of the oars. I might be wrong. Feel free to correct me if I am.

Animal

[Dutchman]

we've actually tried speeding the words to short hauling and pulling songs up to meet specific shipboard jobs as described...... oh my gosh!!! never again!!! we were passed out, dry heaving, and otherwise begging for mercy in less than five minutes. So either our forefathers were workhorses or they moved really slow to keep pace with the songs as they are commonly sung now!

[RustyNell]

we've actually tried speeding the words to short hauling and pulling songs up to meet specific shipboard jobs as described...... oh my gosh!!! never again!!! we were passed out, dry heaving, and otherwise begging for mercy in less than five minutes. So either our forefathers were workhorses or they moved really slow to keep pace with the songs as they are commonly sung now!

The pulls aren't always to the down beat. I think thats where people mess up. Sometimes the pulls are only once in the whole 12 bars. And regarding singing and working at the same time... thats its also why there were shanty men. They did most of the singing. Often the working men might sing a word or sound on the line.

I agree though..... often people sing the work songs WAY too fast. Still some of the shanties people sing were Foc'sle songs, or for entertainment and not work. Stan Hugills book Shanties from the Seven Seas is a great resource for understanding the songs better, and how they were used and where the pulls were placed.

Thought I'd give an example::

everyones familiar with Blow the Man Down, it's a halyard shanty or a stamp and go, capstan song ---well the only pull would have been done on the word DOWN. that gives you a LOT of time to catch your breath, reposition your grip for the next pull.

Edited December 24, 2008 by RustyNell

[Dutchman]

so how about rowing, where you HAVE to move and not catch your breath? that was the worst!

[RustyNell]

well ya need to whip the singer to do it at the right rhythm.. I'll give it a good a try. i know one things for certain you have to get the rowers in their rhythm BEFORE you start the song. I used to be on a competitive rowing team when i was in the Navy, in Newfoundland rowing through snow and ice no less. We didn't SING songs for cadence when we rowed in a race we called strokes...but we did sing on LONG, cold practice days --- I can't row anymore - rotator cuff tear - but I can call cadence and I can sing!

I can only imagine what it was like with someone pushing the row though, especially if your not used to it... i'm surprised people didn't knock each other out with the oars..LOL

Edited December 24, 2008 by RustyNell

[Capt. Sterling]

so how about rowing, where you HAVE to move and not catch your breath? that was the worst!

Damnation now we have to sing as well as row that heavy boat??? Hey we're pirates or hunting pirates, can't we just bloody well sneak up on people once in awhile????

Edited December 24, 2008 by Capt. Sterling

[Dutchman]

im figuring out how to mount rails on the bow and turn her into a spider fleet boat! Imagine a........ ohhh the thoughts!!! LAY HOLD- HEAVE and up the rails go a carriage gun. my gosh- we'd rattle her fittings loose!

[RustyNell]

There's always the chance that the singing could be just so bad, they might just pay us to STOP or else keel over dead and save us the trouble all together.

Edited December 24, 2008 by RustyNell

[MadL]

Aye, RustyNell be on th' right track she be. harken t' her words now!

Think o' American military cadence song, ye do naught take step on each 'n every word 'n some song naught even be a steady beat throughout. Take fer instance this one:

A Yellow Bird (quick pause)

With a Yellow Bill (quick pause)

Landed On (quick pause)

My Window Sill

(double quick pause)

I lured he'm in (quick pause)

{now yell it} With a piece o' Bread

(quick pause)

{slow it down}And

Then

I {quick pause and a half}

{Scream It out!}Smashed He's Fr i cken Head

(*edit this* Now this is a "double time" cadence, mean'n ye be do'n a brisk jog I think I actually recall this one fer both mach'n as well as double tim...but that was some 25 year gone now.... Yer foot naught be hit'n th' ground on every beat, 'n then there be th' pauses that if ye were then ye'd be skipp'n like a pansy!

Then there be th' full double speed cadence (fast brisk run) such as th' Monkey with a three button stitch song (much too dirty fer this har forum, sorry) 'n there be th' Gas Station song (uh, also too dirty, but a good one it be!)

I Wish'd All Th' Ladies

Where Cars On A Highway

{brief pause}

And I Was A Gas Pump

I'd Fill 'Em All....

....sorry, got carried away thar

Now t' slow it down t' regular march'n speed there such ones as Capt'n Jack (NAY ye cur, Naught Jack Sparr'a!}

Hey Hey Captain Jack

Meet Me Down By The Railroad Tack

With That Weapon In Yer Hand

I Wanta Be A Kill'n Man!

One, Two

Three, Four

Bring It On Down

One, Two, Three, FOUR!

Now, try t' march t' that one 'n ye will see how th' song does have a beat, 'n one that seems t' even change, but ye see th' entire rank all In Step 'n stay in a Steady Unchang'n Step. It be hard t' explain in script, ye just have t' do it.

'n I too think many today try t' speed th' beet up too fast. When I hear some o' th' older coots sing they be much slower, like a version I heard recently ('n a really well done one at that) o' "Hang'n Pole" as opposed t' th' way Led Zeppelin sing it (LedZep call it "Gallows Pole"). 'nother example would be a ship party this last summer, I jump'd at th' chance t' help raise th' sail; two o' us on th' ropes, as th' capt'n said "Tis NAUGHT A RACE! Do Naught bind be sail so STAY T'GETHER BOYS!"....well, as it went up I was try'n t' say with me mate, no one was mind'n th' line slack fer us, when suddenly one blaggard jump'd up, grab'd th' line with me and began t' HEAVE, he thought he was show'n off fer th' ladies, show'n how cock strong he be, soon I could nay keep up with he'm 'n lost me grip, could naught get hold o' th' rope again 'n he seem t' think it funny so he went even faster (grant'd, th' ilk be 'bout half me age t'boot)....BUT, suddenly th' Capt'n began t' scream 'n haller! He, in all he's macho madness had over taken th' other man on th' other rope and was bind'n th' rig on th' mast!!!!

Sometime slower 'n steady do win th' race..... oh, 'n keep t' th' cadence

Another good example would be th' Original Pirates - th' Vikings!

Remember their drum beat?

Also the call "Stroke - Stroke - Stroke - Stroke - Stroke.....('n so on 'n so on)

Edited December 24, 2008 by MadL

[Coastie04]

Well, I've set sail and maneuvered using shanties as a cadence. It's all a matter of picking the right song for the job. A windlass would require a long, slow song to, say, hoist an anchor. A captstan could be a little quicker, depending on the strain of the anchor chain/cable. Hauling a halyard to rais a sail can actually be done rather quick to a medium-paced shanty. Some short shanties are great for one unified movement (say bringing the sail to the top of the yard when furling). Haul on the Bowline is one that I've used like this. It get's everyone unified for one movement per verse. Then again, there are still plenty of songs that were just sung for fun or to pass the time.

Coastie

[Patrick Hand]

MadL... most of those were "Marching " cadences..... or maybe running... but that is Infantry/Army(maybe even Marine... .).... 1 2 3 4 stay in step.... a set pace.....Navy is going to do it differently depending on the job.....(come to think of it... the Navy didn't do much marching from place to place.... that's wot the Army and Marines did.....)

"Up jumped the monkey from the coconut grove.... " (sorry, can't do the rest of that cadence... it get too dirty really fast after that.....)

Cadences got the job done... marching up the road, or hauling th' anchor up.... job to be done... how can we "time " it to make it work......

[MadL]

MadL... most of those were "Marching " cadences..... or maybe running... but that is Infantry/Army(maybe even Marine... .).... 1 2 3 4 stay in step.... a set pace.....Navy is going to do it differently depending on the job.....(come to think of it... the Navy didn't do much marching from place to place.... that's wot the Army and Marines did.....)

"Up jumped the monkey from the coconut grove.... " (sorry, can't do the rest of that cadence... it get too dirty really fast after that.....)

Cadences got the job done... marching up the road, or hauling th' anchor up.... job to be done... how can we "time " it to make it work......

Aye, true it be, for I can only speak direct t' those I have used in real life me self, after all I was Army (Combat Engineer, not Infantry; we be the ones what saved th' Infantries arss!) so I only gave those as an 'example' t' how song be used t' keep a pace.

Now for a more clear explanation t' yer question "how can we "time " it to make it work......?" then try this bloke's explanation:

An overview of the work songs of the sea

He begin by explaining:

--------------------------

Most shanties are "call and response" songs, with one voice (the shantyman) singing the line and the chorus of sailors bellowing the response (compare military cadence calls). For example, the shanty "Boney":

Shantyman:

Boney was a warrior,

All:

Way, hey, ya!

Shantyman:

A warrior and a terrier,

All:

Jean-François!

The crew would then pull on the last syllable of the response in each line.

--------------------------

As he says; "compare military cadence calls". Just as I would run/march alongside me men and call out the main lines, me troops would then shout out th' 'cadence' or 'chorus' line what kept the pace, same with Shanty. It be all a matter o' pace and choosing th' appropriate song. He goes on t' explain th' different shanties such as: Short Drag Shanty, Long Drag Shanty, Capstan Shanty, Pumping Shanties, Forecastle Shanties, Stamp-'n'-Go Shanties, and Whaling Shanties

On this page he gives examples of each class o' Shanty:

List of Shanty and what they would be used for

Edited January 19, 2009 by MadL

[MadL]

Patrick; try setting this one t' work, in th' "Long-Drag Shanty" category:

'Reuben Ranzo' music by McGuinn

[oderlesseye]

A Good book Eye have on Language used back then. lots of terms are now interwoven into our modern speech...I was surprised to find out how much so when I read " When A loose Cannon Flogs A Dead Horse There's The Devil To Pay" By Olivia A Isil

If Any one knows of other references to this subject I am interest.. Glad ye started this thread MadL..

[MadL]

Aye Oderlessye, I do so love t' beat that dead horse, soon he will be some fine jerky indeed! I must read that book!

Up jumped a monkey from a coconut grove,

He was a mean xxx xxx, you could tell by his clothes

He wore a Two Button beanie and a three button stitch

He was a xxx xxx xxx xxx son of a xxx!

He lined a hundred xxx, up against the wall

Made a two dollar bet he could xxx them all.

He xxx ninety eight till his xxx turn blue,

Backed off, xxx off, xxx the other two

Little xxx died, he went to xxx

He xxx the Devil and he's wife as well

Forty seven demons climbin up the wall

Screamed "Lord Help Us Before He xxx All!"

[RustyNell]

how can we "time " it to make it work......

I think it helps if the person "calling the cadence" or singing the rhythm actually knows the rhythm of the work being performed or even better still is participating in the work being performed, even if its only to feel the rhythm required. If you have to perform in rhythm with everyone involved it will naturally fall in the right place,... of course that is if you have a natural sense of rhythm.. not everyone has musical talent,... for some its a gift, some develop it over time... some never do... we all have our strengths... thats why there were shanty men who held the job... they were naturals at it. Its an important position ...and has its set of skills as does the position of a Navigator.. not everyone can do it.

Edited January 20, 2009 by RustyNell

[RustyNell]

Aye Oderlessye, I do so love t' beat that dead horse, soon he will be some fine jerky indeed! I must read that book!

Up jumped a monkey from a coconut grove,

He was a mean xxx xxx, you could tell by his clothes

He wore a Two Button beanie and a three button stitch

He was a xxx xxx xxx xxx son of a xxx!

He lined a hundred xxx, up against the wall

Made a two dollar bet he could xxx them all.

He xxx ninety eight till his xxx turn blue,

Backed off, xxx off, xxx the other two

Little xxx died, he went to xxx

He xxx the Devil and he's wife as well

Forty seven demons climbin up the wall

Screamed "Lord Help Us Before He xxx All!"

My dad was a Marine Corps DI at Paris Island in the 60's and 70's... He would have kicked their XXX asses for calling this in front of his daughter... still I'm sure it was a popular one among the boys

[MadL]

Aye Rusty Nell, we got in much trouble at Fort Lenardwood for sing'n that one every morn as we ran past th' WACKS barracks we did, they complained and th' post commander placed at 100% BAN on Charlie Company to sing ANY cadence from that day on - it P.O.ed th' drill Sargents so bad they REALLY took it out on us hard...even though they where th' Shantymen! ahhhh, th' good ol' days!

Now as for who and how t' set th' pace, I think th' Pirate King sum'd it up well"

The shantyman was a sailor who led the others in singing. He was usually self-appointed. A sailor would not generally sign on as a shantyman per se, but took on the role in addition to their other tasks on the ship. Nevertheless, sailors reputed to be good shantymen were valuable and respected — it was a good professional skill to have, along with strong arms and back.

Th' Shantyman could be anyone who takes th' job, and yes it be a learnded thing indeed. It really is not that hard once ye been on th' chorus side a few time and yes, as ye point out, have done th' work yer self. T' simply step up on a pedestal and start call'n out song with no knowledge of what the men are doing and what pace they can keep then it will surely fail. I have known some in th' Army that were horrid at calling cadence and others do it quite well, I always loved cadence and being a squad leader I can not recall any who ever complained about me timing.....well, there was one, not actually 'cadence' but rather it be just before our graduation and me task was t' see that all me men (there were 12 left o' us 12Foxtrots left), and one hot mid summer day as we marched double time across Roller Coaster road (it's name had mean'n) in th' blazing heat I was determined t' drill me comrades in preparation for our final test, every vehicle we pasted, ever aircraft we past (that be a ship with wings) I called out for one o' me men t' identify it - th' heat that day was brutal, as was Roller Coaster road....it be Private Hamstead what I came t', he was ailing horrid from th' heat and from th' run - he lashed out at me t' "Shut Up"..... I demand'd me answer...his face looked painful that day it did....he lashed back, then it happened - th' Bronx New Yorker called out th' Los Angeles bad boy! - Aye, that he did, he called for a fight behind th' barracks upon our return, after we took shower....

Well, I will cut th' story short, we never made it behind th' building for on me way t' th' showers someone greeted me as I pasted th' stalls, apparently Hamstead was in th' stall and upon hear'n me name he THREW open th' door, smacked me right in th' face he did - th' fight took place that very moment, right in th' bathroom - aye, it was a good fight indeed, he had me, I had him, then he had me again. Aye, there be blood, plenty o' blood, just as everyone was hope'n for I suppose. It was when I had Hamstead in a head lock, not sure what t' do with him for I did not really want this fight, he be me matie, not me foe - I about smashed his head int' th' sink, then thought not for that would surely do him in - then I moved him toward th' window, was going t' toss he'm through it I was but then stopped, that would surely bring ill t' us all toss'n he'm out there in front o' everyone! What t' do? WHAT T' DO?!!? He was tiring I could tell but still that Bronx brawler was strong as an ox he was, I could not let go, I could not release me upper hand on this matter.....then th' alarm was given, "Drill Sargent Is Coming!" someone hallared; everyone scattered, including me and Hamstead.

Now th' next morn came and I was t' present me men t' inspection for th' Drill Sargent - Drill Sargent Adams first inspected me; he looked at me battered and bruised face with thought upon he's own, but he said nothing...we began t' inspect th' others, we came t' Private Hamstead - Drill Sargent Adams looked close at Hamstead's own bruised and battered face, th' fat lip, th' fresh scabs, then he looked back at me again with a look of "One plus One equals Something..." - Drill Sargent turned back t' me and asked "Mad L, What Happened Here?", I replied (thinking quickly on me feet, with No Idea how Hamstead would reply) "I fell down th' stairs last night Drill Sargent!", he gazed disbelieving at me and turned t' Hamstead, "Hamstead, What Happened Here?", Hamstead replied "Mad L fell on th' stairs and I tried t' catch he'm, we Both fell together, Drill Sargent!".....with that Drill Sargent Adams gave us each one last disbelieving gaze, shook he's head, and continued our inspection....not another word was ever spoke o' th' matter and upon graduation Hamstead and I parted as best buds, but never saw one another again. So goes life in his magistrates Army...

[MadL]

Oh, and back on th' note o' Shanty, take a read from th' quote by Herman Melville, Redburn, chapter 9, (1849):

Pirate Music & Sea Shanties