Old Ammo Pouch Found

[MadL]

Me mother found this in th' attic, naught sure if it belong'd t' a relative or if she found it on one o' her many antique plunder'n missions t' build th' room I grew up in as a kid (it was all decked out like a ship's cabin).

It certainly is naught o' GAoP era and th' leather is pretty rotted out. I am considering if I should strip th' brass parts t' rebuild it for garb; unless someone can identify it and toss up a red flag that it may be worth keeping as it. Certainly can naught be worn in its current condition with the leather so rotted but all brass parts are still in fine condition.

The pouch has wooden inserts on the two ends and appears to have very thin wood that the pouch leather lines. The flap has no latch as the solid brass 'frame' and emblems give plenty enough weight to keep it closed.

If anyone can identify it, it's era, what battles it may have seen, and especially if there is reason for me to NOT (aye, I said 'Not' not naught) disassemble it then please post.

[MadL]

Here be a view o' th' inside as well as th' crests what be on th' strap.

All th' photos plus a couple other be at: Me Chumbucket Page

[MadL]

I think I just found th' Fire Pot emblem: Re-Enactment Shop in Belgium

(fourth row down on th' left)

So that seems t' place it in th' 18th Century.

[Gunpowder Gertie]

I think I just found th' Fire Pot emblem: Re-Enactment Shop in Belgium

(fourth row down on th' left)

So that seems t' place it in th' 18th Century.

I dunno- it looks pretty original to me!

And I'm finding the exploding grenade insignia quite fascinating...I mean, it is so 18th century, and having be doing research on the Whydah, and the many grenades they've recovered. Plus- there's those crossed cannon..

I'm thinking you got a real piece o' piratical history there, m'boyo!

Edited December 22, 2008 by Gunpowder Gertie

[Cascabel]

The "flaming bomb" symbol has been used as far back as the 17th century, and as recently as World War I, and may be still used by some militaries. The whole rig looks Napoleonic era to me. The crossed cannons usually indicate the artillery branch of the service. It may be an artillery fuze pouch. Great item !!! I think I would leave it alone, and hang it on the wall for display.

>>>> Cascabel

[Captain Jim]

I'm with Cascabel on this one. Some things that I can add: the lion used to have a chain with a whistle on it. I've also seen the Flaming Grenade/bomb symbolism used up to WWI by the French and Belgians, among others. Given the small size of the pouch, I also agree that it is a fuse pouch, not a cartridge pouch.

Still and all, DON'T TOUCH IT!

Did I say that a little too loud? Frame it, hang it and find out as much about it as you can. Start with the person you got it from and work back. Write a museum specializing in military artifacts. You know, research! It's what we all live for!

[pyrateleather]

Here is an image I found showing a Napoleonic Horse Artillery Soldier from the Baden Army

From: The Baden Army at the Battle of Talavera 27 - 28 July 1809

His ammo pouch is similar and has the crossed cannons but not the exploding grenade.

[MadL]

Aye, that be why I posted here, I thinks perhaps it be a 'keeper' rather then scrap. I have had it for a few month now and was afraid t' disassemble Number Five fer Number Five may be Alive!!

I think I will keep her as is and try t' gather more info. I would sure like t' know just 'who' wore her int' battle but that I fear tis lost in history as there appear t' be no serial number 'er other identifying marks.

Captain Jim: I did notice when looking at th' lion close that it do appear t' have something coming from th' mouth, I thought it just be part o' th' fastener but perhaps there was more there once!

As for there bee'n two insignia on th' strap (lion and flaming bomb) and the addition o' th' flaming bomb along with th' crossed cannon on th' pouch; I can relate that t' me own medals (called Bolo Badges in th' Army):

Expert Rifle

Expert Pistol

Expert Grenade

They each hang down in th' form o' a sing plaque from a main base type badge.

Perhaps th' gent ('er blaggard see'n how I know naught who he fought) had earn'd th' flaming bomb in addition t' th' just th' crossed cannon. Perhaps th' lion indicated rank or brigade he was assigned with...??

Any way, I think for know I will keep it with th' antique flintlock pistol she also found (looks too old t' be made serviceable again, but all be intact!) 'n I can use th' design t' make a new from scrap. But them brass end pieces gonna be hard t' imitate, they be finely crafted along with th' hooks what mount th' strap!

Thank'ee muchly fer th' input; if anyone runs across anything else I would be muchly appreciated! As I can naught find just who th' brave gent was who wore this piece t' battle, it would still be nice t' know roughly were 'n when he fought!

[Graydog]

It looks Belgian (That style lion's head) and appears to be circa 1880's to 1910 to me (black leather with lots of stamped brass items).

Here's a picture of a Belgian Civil Guard (1896) wearing what appears to be that belt. However, the resolution is not clear enough on the plates nor is the box itself shown. So, its still just speculation on my part.

As to the flaming bombs and use, they are still used all over the planet generally to denote ordnance related military specialties. However, the devil is in the details and depending on what country when and where there are many examples where the use has a different meaning than simply ordnance. It is still being used in the US Army as the branch insignia for ordnance soldiers.

You can see current day US insignia here:

US Army Ordnance Branch Page

Edited December 22, 2008 by Graydog

[MadL]

It looks Belgian (That style lion's head) and appears to be circa 1880's to 1910 to me (black leather with lots of stamped brass items).

Here's a picture of a Belgian Civil Guard (1896) wearing what appears to be that belt. However, the resolution is not clear enough on the plates nor is the box itself shown. .......

I can try some PhotoShop magic on this one when I get home tonight, I do think I see the 'end' side of the box just beyond he's arm there!

However I just browsed a ton o' Belgian military photos (all years - gotta get me one o' these broadband lines at home some day!) and do naught see any with a Lion's head, there was a Loyal Order of the Lion, but all appear to use the entire lion's body in their insignias.

The US flaming pot however is very different, naught to say that it could be what the older evolved into.

I like the idea o' this leading to Germany and Belgian, see'n as how that be where me father's side o' th' clan hails from...me mum said she is naught sure if this was something brought back from Kansas when me grand da died or something she had picked up at a shop then forgot about - perhaps one me own past kin had worn this 'n me great grand da or me grand ma had brought it t' America. Accord'n t' th' Baden Army link above them be German soldiers in uniform.

So far however th' Belgian re-enactment site I found last night seem t' have th' closest mach on th' flaming pot emblem...perhaps I can extract some information outta them!

*Updated*

Just got through browsing the Encyclopedia of United States Army Insignia and Uniforms

they do have many a flaming grenade insignia but NO lion head ones and I saw none offer'n th' grenade on any form o' shield back'n....naught that th' book may have simply over looked it...'er none survived t' make it int' th' book

Encylopedia of United States Army Insignia - Online

Edited December 22, 2008 by MadL

[MadL]

Oh, I did find this at Gutenberg org!

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21532/21532...ages/img055.jpg

Might them blaggards be a wear'n SASHES?!!? PIRATES!!!.....well, more modern ones then GAoP...perhaps they knew Eryl flynn!

[MadL]

Civil War Kepi Hat Flaming Grenade Insignia (almost just like mine)

estimate auction price: $100~$200

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3578997

Flame shape close but it's hollow behind...now if'n I can tie th' lion's head t' a Civil War unit....

[Mary Diamond]

A Beautiful Item! Agreed with the above posts, this is a keeper as is, or, perhaps, with a little loving TLC to prevent further degradation of the materials.

[MadL]

perhaps, with a little loving TLC to prevent further degradation of the materials.

Any suggestions on that?

I know how t' soften up leather, me preference be pine sap 'n bee's wax. But how t' "prevent furhter degradation" without turn'n such a old lass int' mush? As ye can see th' inside took quite a beat'n, most likely from what lovely stuff we love t' fill our pistol 'n cannon with.

Is there somethin' perhaps what museums use t' stop time, without try'n t' add youth?

[Mary Diamond]

I wish I had a good answer for you on that ~ unfortunately, I do not. My recommendation would be to contact a museum or antique/restoration company for some suggestions.

[Graydog]

see below (durn wrong key hitting)

Edited December 22, 2008 by Graydog

[Graydog]

Belgium's lion is a rampant lion and depiction is normally as such, but in a few cases there is the depiction of soley the lion's head. From what times I have seen just the head it follows the pattern as on the leather strap indicated.

Example- The national emblem worn by Belgian troops on their helmets in World War I and thru the start of World War II was a very similair lions head. Here is a picture of that helmet:

Belgian Helmet

Of course that plate on the strap isn't a helmet, but look at the lions on each. Now with that said, I still only feel it appears to be Belgian, I don't have definitive proof, only assumption.

As to the flaming bomb, that will drive you crazy in the specific case of France and Belgium. I will leave the French alone. But in the case of Belgium off and on through the years that symbol has been used in the insignia of, military police, infantry, mortars, gendarmines, grenadiers, light infantry, geeze and maybe border/custom inspectors. Below is a website that you can roam through and see them cropping up very often but representing different types of units.

Enough flaming bombs to drive a person flaming nuts

Edited December 22, 2008 by Graydog

[Stynky Tudor]

perhaps, with a little loving TLC to prevent further degradation of the materials.

Any suggestions on that?

I know how t' soften up leather, me preference be pine sap 'n bee's wax. But how t' "prevent furhter degradation" without turn'n such a old lass int' mush? As ye can see th' inside took quite a beat'n, most likely from what lovely stuff we love t' fill our pistol 'n cannon with.

Is there somethin' perhaps what museums use t' stop time, without try'n t' add youth?

Definitely a 'KEEPER' rather then scrap!

It's just such a cool piece - literally a slice of history that you are able to put your hands on.

. . . I'll give ya $5.00 for it to take the burden off your hands.

Actually I would suggest calling or running it down to your local museum for help on restoration or saving what is left and preventing further decay.

Also take some more pictures, make a pattern and try to make yourself one, that thing is so cool.

But I want to see the pistol now.

[Story]

Victorian /American Civil War period military fashion in Commonwealth (including Canadian) artillery units saw officers and NCOs wearing a leather pouch belt. Some where tricked out with a silver chain, whistle, and belt badge.

RA officer's undress "collapsing" pouch. Black leather gilded fittings .Cannon ornament extra-(see Metalwork section)

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thinred/belts.html

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thinred/...collapspuch.htm

If not UK, then perhaps some Southern American country's knockoff (military fashions frequently being copied).

[MadL]

But I want to see the pistol now.

Ah, th' wench stuck th' pistol away int' storage before I could get me hands upon it...says I can have it after th' move be complete and all it unpacked....(they have only been 'packing' for neigh two yarrr now!! )

Story: That tis almost a dead ringer!!

[gunner Gordon]

A lot of police in europe use similar pouches to mimic the military nature of their jobs, Italy and Spain have similar pouches even today. The original use of this type of pouch in the military was a dispatch pouch carried by junior officers. they coudn't actually access it but anofficer issuing orders would put his written order inthe pouch and his counterpart at the other end would retrieve it. It became a symbol of rank and spread as an item of fulldress. that is why the pouch is so narrow. The police versions are wider. The practice continues even today in great britain. The pouch was not intended for ammunition but pad and pencil.