Barriers?

[Brig]

This year during one of the battles there was an issue with spectators just not wanting to keep a safe distance from the battle action on top of the fort. Folks were arguing with or just plain ignoring requests to move back. Not just mine, which is entirely fathomable , but Haunting Lily's and Captain Jim's as well. What are thoughts on some kind of barrier, something as simple as tape or rope that can quickly be put up and removed, and gives the viewers a clear idea of where the 'safe zone' is?

I know we don't want to police folks or detract from the atmosphere of the battles, but I don't think a lot of the festival-goers realize the real danger involved. There were parents sitting their kids up on the fort wall within feet of the black powder firings, despite numerous requests to keep back. I'd hate to see a child get hurt because their parents can't act like adults.

[Diosa De Cancion]

This year during one of the battles there was an issue with spectators just not wanting to keep a safe distance from the battle action on top of the fort. Folks were arguing with or just plain ignoring requests to move back. Not just mine, which is entirely fathomable , but Haunting Lily's and Captain Jim's as well. What are thoughts on some kind of barrier, something as simple as tape or rope that can quickly be put up and removed, and gives the viewers a clear idea of where the 'safe zone' is?

I know we don't want to police folks or detract from the atmosphere of the battles, but I don't think a lot of the festival-goers realize the real danger involved. There were parents sitting their kids up on the fort wall within feet of the black powder firings, despite numerous requests to keep back. I'd hate to see a child get hurt because their parents can't act like adults.

Again, I think this is something else where we can all kick in..... I am more than happy to take shifts to tell people where the heck to be. Something in my sweet disposition makes them listen or think I'm going to clock them...so I have a feeling that would work. :)

With that said, I would like to fire from time to time so I don't want to be the only one doing this, but I can do a shift and also volunteer some of my crewe to do this.

We took care of this on our own during our fire show Friday night. We told 1-2 of our crewe to keep the crowd behind a line (since we can't see them when we're spinning fire) and it worked just fine. We just need to have people on point who know this is their job.

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Just a suggestion; perhaps the safety demo I use along with firing of flintlock would be in order prior to the commencement of the battles. Just before the opening shots, someone could stand out front of the crowd, give a short lecture on the theme and fire a blank at a poster board or coffee can or some such. This always gets the attention of young and old alike. Visual goes farther than mere words IMHO.

Bo

[Brig]

Just a suggestion; perhaps the safety demo I use along with firing of flintlock would be in order prior to the commencement of the battles. Just before the opening shots, someone could stand out front of the crowd, give a short lecture on the theme and fire a blank at a poster board or coffee can or some such. This always gets the attention of young and old alike. Visual goes farther than mere words IMHO.

Bo

I'm sure something like that would go a long way, Bo. But from what I saw, a lot of the trouble was with folks who came after the battle had already started and didn't realize that there were boundary lines. Most immediately apologized and moved back when asked to do so, but some were unhappy about being asked to move because they weren't given minute instructions on where the line was.

[Capt. Sterling]

This year during one of the battles there was an issue with spectators just not wanting to keep a safe distance from the battle action on top of the fort. Folks were arguing with or just plain ignoring requests to move back. Not just mine, which is entirely fathomable , but Haunting Lily's and Captain Jim's as well. What are thoughts on some kind of barrier, something as simple as tape or rope that can quickly be put up and removed, and gives the viewers a clear idea of where the 'safe zone' is?

I know we don't want to police folks or detract from the atmosphere of the battles, but I don't think a lot of the festival-goers realize the real danger involved. There were parents sitting their kids up on the fort wall within feet of the black powder firings, despite numerous requests to keep back. I'd hate to see a child get hurt because their parents can't act like adults.

Again, I think this is something else where we can all kick in..... I am more than happy to take shifts to tell people where the heck to be. Something in my sweet disposition makes them listen or think I'm going to clock them...so I have a feeling that would work. :)

With that said, I would like to fire from time to time so I don't want to be the only one doing this, but I can do a shift and also volunteer some of my crewe to do this.

We took care of this on our own during our fire show Friday night. We told 1-2 of our crewe to keep the crowd behind a line (since we can't see them when we're spinning fire) and it worked just fine. We just need to have people on point who know this is their job.

Hmmm if folks aren't listening though... and I did notice kids on the wall, which also becomes a risk if they fall off into the moat... a rope might do the trick, especially up on the fort wall... out in the field, they would most likely stay put... with just crowd control...perhaps a loud, and very large gun crew closer to the crowds to lend a hand if the folks aren't listening...

[Captain Jim]

This year during one of the battles there was an issue with spectators just not wanting to keep a safe distance from the battle action on top of the fort. Folks were arguing with or just plain ignoring requests to move back. Not just mine, which is entirely fathomable , but Haunting Lily's and Captain Jim's as well.

The one incident to which Brig refers was finally resolved when I informed the lady in question (who had repeatedly crossed the line I had pointed out to her) that the wind was blowing in her direction, sparks and fire come out the business ends of the guns and that if the big-arsed feathers in her hat caught fire I was going to throw it, and her, into the moat. I may have growled a bit. She retreated to the second row of spectators. Of course that didn't stop the next batch from pressing forward. A rope line might be a bit better.

[Dutchman]

without causing a raucus- brig hit half of the problem and its our fault. why were people shooting that close to the crowd? the crowd may have been held at a point, but why are we going that close to the line? A line actually needs to be two sided. one to keep spectators away from the weapons and the second to keep reenactors away from the crowd- a no mans land.

there were a lot of good folks shooting, and a lot of folks taking the time to learn how to handle powder and weapons safely, but there were some lulus out there trying to freelance that i would not have trusted with a waterpistol. fortunately, most of them were caught. the guy that popped a round off directly behind me on the cannon line and the barefoot smoker that wanted to be on a gun crew next to the powder box come to mind.

[Harry]

Our safety zone for small arms firing is supposed to be a minimum of 10-yards from shooter to spectator. Personally, I prefer a wider separation. With that said, we will have a roped area set up for 2009 that will not allow spectators to "cross the line." For those on the battle line outside of the fort, we will set additional safety zones. We will also enlist the support of participants and park personnel to help police that. During the cannon battle on top of the fort, I think we did a relatively good job in keeping spectators safe. I have absolutely no problem explaining the facts of life to these folks (while at the same time wanting to drain the gene pool). My opening remarks prior to the cannon firing was basically, you stay back because we don't want to blow you up.

[Dutchman]

oy harry, i just had a thought. This is more of a weapons issue than barriers though. You have a color of the day to ensure weapons are inspected. would a "shooters band" of some sort work out here? the group is still small enough that yourself and the weapons safety folks will know the shooters. Proven return shooters get a permanent band on themselves or the weapons for the week. A color wire tie instead of ribbon maybe? If its not there and noone recognizes the shooter on line, potential problem children could be readily identified. the drawback to this is a safety class would need to be provided as a refresher to those who would like and afford new weapons owners an opportunity to shoot- with all your free time- this would not be a problem i'm sure after the class, the band is issued.

Edited December 18, 2008 by bbcddutchman

[Captain Mickey]

This year during one of the battles there was an issue with spectators just not wanting to keep a safe distance from the battle action on top of the fort. Folks were arguing with or just plain ignoring requests to move back. Not just mine, which is entirely fathomable , but Haunting Lily's and Captain Jim's as well.

The one incident to which Brig refers was finally resolved when I informed the lady in question (who had repeatedly crossed the line I had pointed out to her) that the wind was blowing in her direction, sparks and fire come out the business ends of the guns and that if the big-arsed feathers in her hat caught fire I was going to throw it, and her, into the moat. I may have growled a bit. She retreated to the second row of spectators. Of course that didn't stop the next batch from pressing forward. A rope line might be a bit better.

Now I would have love to have seen that and more specifically her face. Growled a bit indeed!

[Harry]

oy harry, i just had a thought. This is more of a weapons issue than barriers though. You have a color of the day to ensure weapons are inspected. would a "shooters band" of some sort work out here? the group is still small enough that yourself and the weapons safety folks will know the shooters. Proven return shooters get a permanent band on themselves or the weapons for the week. A color wire tie instead of ribbon maybe? If its not there and noone recognizes the shooter on line, potential problem children could be readily identified. the drawback to this is a safety class would need to be provided as a refresher to those who would like and afford new weapons owners an opportunity to shoot- with all your free time- this would not be a problem i'm sure after the class, the band is issued.

I like this idea. One of the things we're going to look at for future events is the shooter as well as the weapon. We want to make sure the person behind the weapon knows what they're doing. I've done this before with cannon and it has worked out well. We'll still want to do daily inspections--safety, safety, safety.

Now that I've gotten to know many of you shooters, I am comfortable asking for your help with inspections as well as policing shooters. Dutch, I would really like to enlist you...

[Dutchman]

pm headed to you

[Captain Mickey]

oy harry, i just had a thought. This is more of a weapons issue than barriers though. You have a color of the day to ensure weapons are inspected. would a "shooters band" of some sort work out here? the group is still small enough that yourself and the weapons safety folks will know the shooters. Proven return shooters get a permanent band on themselves or the weapons for the week. A color wire tie instead of ribbon maybe? If its not there and noone recognizes the shooter on line, potential problem children could be readily identified. the drawback to this is a safety class would need to be provided as a refresher to those who would like and afford new weapons owners an opportunity to shoot- with all your free time- this would not be a problem i'm sure after the class, the band is issued.

I like this idea. One of the things we're going to look at for future events is the shooter as well as the weapon. We want to make sure the person behind the weapon knows what they're doing. I've done this before with cannon and it has worked out well. We'll still want to do daily inspections--safety, safety, safety.

Now that I've gotten to know many of you shooters, I am comfortable asking for your help with inspections as well as policing shooters. Dutch, I would really like to enlist you...

I am looking forward to participating next year. I would like to offer a suggestion if I might. What about giving a class prior to the event for those who want to participate. Upon completion, graduates of the class could be given a neck scarf with a distinctive color to wear so that the were CLEARLY qualified. Additionally, instructors could have edging sewn on the scrarf

The idea comes from boy scout camp and use of the fire arms on the rifle range. I clearly remeber wearing my neck kerchief with great pride once I had earned it! You could even come up with a name for the firing brigades and have them embroidered in somehow (if that doesn't violate PC of course!)

[michaelsbagley]

I am looking forward to participating next year. I would like to offer a suggestion if I might. What about giving a class prior to the event for those who want to participate. Upon completion, graduates of the class could be given a neck scarf with a distinctive color to wear so that the were CLEARLY qualified. Additionally, instructors could have edging sewn on the scrarf

The idea comes from boy scout camp and use of the fire arms on the rifle range. I clearly remeber wearing my neck kerchief with great pride once I had earned it! You could even come up with a name for the firing brigades and have them embroidered in somehow (if that doesn't violate PC of course!)

Not a bad idea in theory, except when you take into consideration that many of the festival's participants travel from half way across the country to play and might not be able to make an extra trip to earn a merit badge.

[Lily Alexander]

huh??? If a person is willing to travel half way across the country to play, wouldn't it be better to have them play safely? First time gun owners and folks that are not familiar with black powder, should be required to learn how to fire their weapon safely and in a manner that will not harm themselves or others. I have limited experience myself and would welcome any and all opportunities to attend any class offered to improve my skills. These are real fire arms and the potential for injury does exist.

[michaelsbagley]

huh??? If a person is willing to travel half way across the country to play, wouldn't it be better to have them play safely? First time gun owners and folks that are not familiar with black powder, should be required to learn how to fire their weapon safely and in a manner that will not harm themselves or others. I have limited experience myself and would welcome any and all opportunities to attend any class offered to improve my skills. These are real fire arms and the potential for injury does exist.

I'm all in favour of classes should there be any willing to teach and take them... It was the intonation that one needed the "merit badge" in order to play that I disagree with. Some of us may not have the option of travelling early to take a mandatory weapons class.

[sutlerjon]

Harry I'd be willing to help police "The Line of Safety".....If only there were some sort of military type thing.....ooops trying to get Napoleanic 100+ yrs too sson

[sutlerjon]

I'm new to this era but i've got more'n 10 yrs exp at blackpowder fighting and crowd control at larger battles and safety is best handled with a definite demarcation of where "yesterday" begins and "today" ends and with a definite rope line people do stay behind it.... mostly

[Harry]

Will be looking for your help, Jim, in the fort.

[Captain Mickey]

huh??? If a person is willing to travel half way across the country to play, wouldn't it be better to have them play safely? First time gun owners and folks that are not familiar with black powder, should be required to learn how to fire their weapon safely and in a manner that will not harm themselves or others. I have limited experience myself and would welcome any and all opportunities to attend any class offered to improve my skills. These are real fire arms and the potential for injury does exist.

I'm all in favour of classes should there be any willing to teach and take them... It was the intonation that one needed the "merit badge" in order to play that I disagree with. Some of us may not have the option of travelling early to take a mandatory weapons class.

Sorry to stir up the hornets nest. I guess my thinking included the folks who are already known to be capable to be exempt from any instruction unless they wanted to be instructors themselves.

And it seems the idea of the scouting imagery may have set the wrong "tone" me thinks...

[sutlerjon]

Be glad to help ,Harry, see you in February.....rhyme totally unintentional

[michaelsbagley]

Sorry to stir up the hornets nest. I guess my thinking included the folks who are already known to be capable to be exempt from any instruction unless they wanted to be instructors themselves.

And it seems the idea of the scouting imagery may have set the wrong "tone" me thinks...

Mickey, no hornets nest stirred up. Perhaps I have come across more negatively than I meant to. Like I said in my previous post, black powder instruction is a great idea... But that whole thing leads to a potential mess of "who" gets to decide who is safe or not. As has been expressed many times in many threads, one of the most magical thing about PiP, is all the people coming from all different places working together well and happily, a soon as you place anyone in charge of decision making like who can play and who can't... That magic is likely to disappear.

[Capt. Sterling]

But that whole thing leads to a potential mess of "who" gets to decide who is safe or not.

AH honestly, that would be Harry and those HE chooses to be in authority... after all tis his playground... and aye, PiP is a "loose" event, but frankly, we allow it to get too loose and eventually safety and everything else will go down the drain...

[Captain Mickey]

Sorry to stir up the hornets nest. I guess my thinking included the folks who are already known to be capable to be exempt from any instruction unless they wanted to be instructors themselves.

And it seems the idea of the scouting imagery may have set the wrong "tone" me thinks...

Mickey, no hornets nest stirred up. Perhaps I have come across more negatively than I meant to. Like I said in my previous post, black powder instruction is a great idea... But that whole thing leads to a potential mess of "who" gets to decide who is safe or not. As has been expressed many times in many threads, one of the most magical thing about PiP, is all the people coming from all different places working together well and happily, a soon as you place anyone in charge of decision making like who can play and who can't... That magic is likely to disappear.

On that I can't agree more. I've seen it also time and time no mater what the event be. Problem with this writin' thing, much is lost in tone and gesture. Much prefer, do I, to talk over me grog in a pub with the waves slapping their song as the music...Cheers Mickey, ye have no argument with me, and that be the truth it is.

[Dutchman]

reenacting is indeed enjoyable for all and PIP is a great venue for every one to get together and appreciate the comradery. Mickey, i love you like a brother, but i'm going to politely disagree with you on this one. From a gun nuts point of view- Its not a matter of who can or cannot play in the field. its a matter of enabeling everyone who wishes to, to SAFELY take the field and be comfortable knowing that the person next to them has some competence with powder and weapon. As the festival grows, obviously so does the number of shooters, with that goes the risk of injury and accident and we all know that one "oops- i didn't know" could cost Harry his job and end our days at the fort. Have faith- having safeguards in place is a good thing, but please don't feel overwhelmed. I'm certain that it can be done with minimal intrusion to those that are already squared away or those willing to learn.