Flintlock v. Doglock

[Quartermaster James]

Hey Quartermaster James,

It is indeed the fowler.... I figured as the Red Coat soldier has pretty much become my primary impression a full sized musket would be more appropriate for the more military portrayal than a 'buss or anything like that.

I'd appreciate any shooting tips you can provide me with, but I'll likely be using it to "push powder" (re-enactment blank firing) probably about 99% of the time.

I think she's also a good gun for a buccaneer impression too, no? Pretty versatile, what with the old lock reused on a new stock history.

So far I've only shot about a dozen cartridges and half that many PRB through mine. I need to take her out with sticks to sight her in. The sight is pretty tall, and may need to be taken down a bit. Had a bit of trouble with windage on the first shoot*, but I think that was mostly me getting used to shooting her.

She had a pretty strong trigger pull when I got her (didn't take any measurements, sorry). I emailed Pete and he told me to polish the nose of the sear and the tumbler (carefully!). That seems to have helped a lot; I'll know better after the next shoot.

Haven't tried shot in her yet, still got to get set-up for that.

Loyalist has the British bayonet for these guns. An 11" blade on that 68" gun is quite a sight!

*Had trouble just getting on paper, but then we were shooting at pistol targets!

Enjoy!

Edited February 23, 2009 by Quartermaster James

[michaelsbagley]

Yeah, from the various source I have looked to, it will be good for doing 1670s to 1710s impressions, which is one of the main reasons I did decide to go with it. I plan to use it at Searle's (a 1668 event), and I highly suspect no one will comment on it being out of place there either...

Living in the suburbs of the city (even a small city) I doubt I'll get much chance to shoot with it, but if the opportunity arise to get out and try some target shooting with it, I will definately share my experiences.

I'm going to have to look into that bayonet, I was leaning towards a plug bayonet, but my Red Coat portayal is aimed to be late enough that a socket bayonet would not be out of place.

[Quartermaster James]

I'm going to have to look into that bayonet, I was leaning towards a plug bayonet, but my Red Coat portayal is aimed to be late enough that a socket bayonet would not be out of place.

It's the wavy (nasty) early British plug bayonet. They also have straight edged, if you're in a kinder mood...

[Patrick Hand]

I also have the doglock... but I have to wait until the weather is better (and re- case harden my frizzen) before I can take it out shooting...

The coolest thing about living up in the mountains, I know a place I can safely shoot that's only about two miles from where I live.....

[Quartermaster James]

I also have the doglock... but I have to wait until the weather is better (and re- case harden my frizzen) before I can take it out shooting...

The coolest thing about living up in the mountains, I know a place I can safely shoot that's only about two miles from where I live.....

That's awesome! Can you hunt there too? I'm in the outskirts of Portland and I've got about an hour drive to get out shooting, either in the woods (gravel pits) or the black powder club.

Michael: if you want to shoot more, look for local Mountain Man or Rendezvous groups. You may have a black powder club in your area.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Quartermaster James

[michaelsbagley]

That's awesome! Can you hunt there too? I'm in the outskirts of Portland and I've got about an hour drive to get out shooting, either in the woods (gravel pits) or the black powder club.

Michael: if you want to shoot more, look for local Mountain Man or Rendezvous groups. You may have a black powder club in your area.

I appreciate the advice QJ, I know there is a primitive shooting club (black powder and archery) about an hour east of where I live, and a friend has some family with a farm two hours north where I can go shooting with him on the rare occasion... It's a matter of time.

[Patrick Hand]

Rendezvous are cool about Pyrates... (well the ones out here in California are... once they found out it wasn't a buncha Jack Sparrows......) It IS pre 1840's....

I just have to get the frizzen hardened before the next one. so I can finally fire it... I think Jack and Red Handed Jill are getting impatient fer me to shoot.....

[Quartermaster James]

Rendezvous are cool about Pyrates... (well the ones out here in California are... once they found out it wasn't a buncha Jack Sparrows......) It IS pre 1840's....

Same up here. We had a local longrifle club join us at our February raid. It was a hoot! A great time was had by all!

[michaelsbagley]

For those who have the Doglock long arm, what size flints are you using in it? I was guessing either 3/4 inch or 1 inch, but I wasn't too sure and thought I would ask around first.

I think the lock on the long arm is the same as is used on the Blunderbuss, so if those who have and use the Blunderbuss might pipe in as well, it would be helpful.

I was almost able to take the new piece out shooting yesterday, my friend whose family has the farm up North f where I live invited me to go up and do some target plinking... But I could not find any local source of flints or round ball (in the correct sizes). All the shot and flints I could find are for the small calibre rifles (.50 cal or smaller). However I am pleased I finally found a local source for GoEx powder. Hopefully the opportunity will happen again soon.

[theM.A.dDogge]

1 inch...the big boys...surprised Middlesex didna send ya one with it??

[michaelsbagley]

1 inch...the big boys...surprised Middlesex didna send ya one with it??

Well, while I bought it off of Middlesex, it was via a Gunbroker.com auction, as the musket was considered a "seconds" due to the fact it has a unsightly scratch near the barrel tang (and it is a surface scratch and not structural crack)... But for the hugely reduced price I got it off the auction for, I am more than okay with them not sending a flint with it.

Thanks!

[Cascabel]

Proper flint size is based on the WIDTH of the frizzen. Hand knapped flints are sized in eighths of an inch (5/8, 6/8, 7/8, 8/8, and so on.) Choose the size according to your frizzen's width. The length will be proportional to the width. The idea is to get full contact across the frizzen if possible. Any wider than the frizzen serves no purpose, and narrower than the frizzen is not going to give optimum sparking, and may wind up being too short to last very long.

>>>>> Cascabel

[Quartermaster James]

I'm using 1" English flints in the fowler with great results.

Also, I have been shooting .670 balls in paper cartridges, but when I am done with these I will probably pick up a .680 RB mold.

I had her out earlier today. The work on the sear and tumbler really helped the trigger pull.

At 75 yards I still can't hit anything smaller than a door; consistently low and to the right.

I really need to take her out with sticks and work on the sight picture.

You might want to check the bore size with a gauge or send the serial number over to Pete to have him confirm the actual size, as I understand there is some variance. BTW: the stampings on my barrel seem to indicate it was made in September 1979. If you take yours apart, let me know what yours says.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Quartermaster James

[LadyBarbossa]

Awesome that everyone is having luck with theirs. I'm not having any luck with mine. My doglock still hasn't fired yet. Just a continuous "click, click, click". The frizzen is terribly grooved now. Sad when It's barely been used!

Suggestions, mates? Should I get a new frizzen or harden the frizzen? About ready to trade the hammer and frizzen for parts or something.

I love my doglock, it's massive and wicked looking. I wouldn't trade it unless for a working doglock.

Hell, my over used carbine works better than this brand new doglock.

Again, suggestions?

Yes, Dogge... I did try a new flint. Still didn't work.

~Lady B

[Quartermaster James]

Again, suggestions?

Sorry to hear of yer troubles, but happy to lend a hand getting her firing.

First off, whatcha got?

Second, are ye getting any spark? Can ye set off 4F in the pan?

If ye've got a good flint (what are you using? Black English?), have you got it set correct like?

That you mention the frizzen getting grooved, and not just scraped mind ye, has me thinking the bulk of the issue may be a soft frizzen face. This brings us back to what you've got and from whom ye got it?

Now, how handy are ye? If'n ye can't send your frizzen back for rehardening, you can do it yourself; either old school style with some old motor oil or new like with some case hardening compound. TOTW sells Kasenite, here are their instructions for hardening a frizzen. While TOTW insists on Oxy-Acetylene, for something as small as a frizzen I have found MAPP gas to work well enough.

EDIT: Oops! Just reread your original post! Yes, harden the frizzen.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Quartermaster James

[michaelsbagley]

Awesome that everyone is having luck with theirs. I'm not having any luck with mine. My doglock still hasn't fired yet. Just a continuous "click, click, click". The frizzen is terribly grooved now. Sad when It's barely been used!

Suggestions, mates? Should I get a new frizzen or harden the frizzen? About ready to trade the hammer and frizzen for parts or something.

I love my doglock, it's massive and wicked looking. I wouldn't trade it unless for a working doglock.

Hell, my over used carbine works better than this brand new doglock.

Again, suggestions?

Yes, Dogge... I did try a new flint. Still didn't work.

~Lady B

How the flint is seated in the jaws will affect spark or lack thereof. Sounds to me like you may have the flint sticking out too far.

I used my new dog lock long arm this past weekend at the Searle's Raid event, and it worked perfectly. I destroyed a couple of flints tying to find the sweet spot for seating the flint. After I got the flint set correctly, I was able to push a lot of powder through the thing with few misfires.... In fact most of the misfires came after about 30 plus firings and the flint was starting to dull.

I'll hopefully get to order a ball mold in the not too distant future, then I may be able to compare some notes with you James. I think I will likely start with a .670 mold... I am considering getting this one and this one

as I picked up one of the Horseman's Pistols with the English Locks this past weekend from Callenish Gunner, the Horse pistol is .62 calibre... I really wish one or the other molds had both sizes I need, but such is life.

[Quartermaster James]

I'll hopefully get to order a ball mold in the not too distant future, then I may be able to compare some notes with you James. I think I will likely start with a .670 mold... I am considering getting this one and this one

as I picked up one of the Horseman's Pistols with the English Locks this past weekend from Callenish Gunner, the Horse pistol is .62 calibre... I really wish one or the other molds had both sizes I need, but such is life.

Thanks for the links, I hadn't seen those molds before. I've been looking at these from TOTW.

Yeah, I gotta get two too - pistol's .58.

[Cascabel]

Awesome that everyone is having luck with theirs. I'm not having any luck with mine. My doglock still hasn't fired yet. Just a continuous "click, click, click". The frizzen is terribly grooved now. Sad when It's barely been used!

Suggestions, mates? Should I get a new frizzen or harden the frizzen? About ready to trade the hammer and frizzen for parts or something.

I love my doglock, it's massive and wicked looking. I wouldn't trade it unless for a working doglock.

Hell, my over used carbine works better than this brand new doglock.

Again, suggestions?

Yes, Dogge... I did try a new flint. Still didn't work.

~Lady B

If you are getting a lot of wear to your frizzen, and no spark, then there is a better than even chance that the frizzen needs hardening. The quality is inconsistent with these India made guns. Sometimes they have more than one issue preventing proper function.

The very first thing I would do in your case is re-harden the frizzen. That may solve the problem without further work. Don't bother buying a new frizzen. The one you have can be re-hardened as often as needed. A new one would need to be hand fitted, and could also have hardness problems.

>>>> Cascabel

[Guest]

On my Doglock, the frizzen spring was WAY TO STIFF..... so I had to carefully file it down some.... If you're grooving your frizzen that may be the problem.....

[Quartermaster James]

On my Doglock, the frizzen spring was WAY TO STIFF..... so I had to carefully file it down some.... If you're grooving your frizzen that may be the problem.....

Yeah, overly stiff springs are another common problem with these imports. Besides filing, another way to lessen the spring strength is to (carefully) hyper-compress the spring.

Patrick: where on the spring did you file?

[Capt Thighbiter]

So, to stand behind my belief that there are no dumb questions: How the heck do you get the hammer off the pivot?

I removed the screw and the hammer is still stuck on the square pin. Do ya just pry it off? Or is it secured by a second method that does not present itself so obviously? I am of the school where 'metal pats are not just stuck, but being retained by something - brute force never a good idea'.

[LadyBarbossa]

Yeah, the frizzen spring is rather stiff.

Do let us know where you filed the frizzen spring down and how.

Alas, though I'm a gunowner - a carbine and the doglock - I really haven't the equipment of most gun owners. So, how does one reharden the frizzen and file down the frizzen spring with no equipment? And what items do I need to accomplish these two tasks?

~Lady B

[Cascabel]

So, to stand behind my belief that there are no dumb questions: How the heck do you get the hammer off the pivot?

I removed the screw and the hammer is still stuck on the square pin. Do ya just pry it off? Or is it secured by a second method that does not present itself so obviously? I am of the school where 'metal pats are not just stuck, but being retained by something - brute force never a good idea'.

Prying is never a good idea !! You may scar up the edge of it, and also the face of the lockplate. The correct method of removal is to completely dis-assemble the lock, and then support the lockplate across the jaws of your vise so that the tumbler is loose between the jaws, and using a BRASS punch, tap the square shaft down and out of the hammer. Removing the cock (hammer) is unfortunately the last step to taking apart a lock.

Sometimes they are not really tight, and can be gently wiggled a bit and will come off without complete dis-assembly, or they can be taken off with VERY careful prying, if they are not too tight. The tumbler shaft usually has a very slight taper to it so that the cock stays tight. If you try removal without complete dis-assembly, keep in mind that when in the fired position, the shoulder of the cock rests on the top edge of the lockplate, and in some locks, this is all that keeps the mainspring from falling off the toe of the tumbler. For that reason, if you remove the cock without dis-assembling the lock, you need to do it at half-cock.

>>>>> Cascabel

[Quartermaster James]

So, how does one reharden the frizzen and file down the frizzen spring with no equipment? And what items do I need to accomplish these two tasks?

~Lady B

I'll let Patrick address filing.

To harden the frizzen the easiest way, you will need a MAPP gas torch at the least, and some case hardening compound (Kasenit). Follow the link I provided earlier for instructions. That said, I know of old timers who would harden a frizzen using nothing more than a gas stove and a blow pipe, and who used old motor oil as the carbon source for case hardening.

If you got your doglock from MVTC, Pete will reharden the frizzen for life, for free. I don't know about any other company's policies. Alternatively, you could send your frizzen to TOTW and they will tune the lock and reharden the frizzen for $20-30.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Quartermaster James

[Stynky Tudor]

Though I suggest that everybody do some limited level of break down and disassemble of their piece for cleaning of course, it should also be done to gain a level of understanding on how the damn things work. But I also put forth a word of caution as to modifying pieces that you're not financially ready to mend, fix or replace.

Talking from experience, I've done a few stupid modifications, under the guise of fine-tuning my flintlock pistol. Though it has made my gunsmith happy, as he buys a new summer home in the Bahamas, it's cost me cash, stress, and most painfully grog to repair.

Considering all the money I've put into modification and repairs on the damn thing - I could have created something from scratch. In fact thinking about how much of it is original, I guess technically I have, but I would rather done it intentionally instead of out of necessity

But I do have a great reliable piece now, that's more reliable than the day I bought the original piece.

Besides sending confusing signals of my mixed blessings - my point is be careful. It really sucks when you go to an event without your pistol - because your piece is broken, or getting repaired. And on top of all that it costs money to fix.