Where be the Cannon???

[Hawkyns]

I just want to add that i envy NO ONE on a ship gun =). That picture looks very uncomfortable especially after hour two of firing.

Well, a gun should have at least a 3 man crew and that would allow for removing the lashings and bringing the gun inboard to clear and reload. What they are doing there is dangerous in so many ways.

Hawkyns

[oderlesseye]

What they are doing there is dangerous in so many ways

As alot of people whom frequent this board come to learn.. Perhaps you might be more

Specific that we learn the right way Mr. Hawkyns. What is it you see that is being done wrong...

Go ahead .. give us a broadside!

[Coastie04]

Well, I can point out a couple of basics that are unsafe, and I am not a gunner (although familiar with basic firearms, black powder, etc.). First off, leaning over a railing lower than your waist is a good way to go swimming. One of them even has a foot up, so you know she's near her balance point leaning on the rail. Being a ship that's sailing and all, it's that much more likely to loose one's balance. Second, both their heads are in front of the muzzle, and should there be a spark when reloading that sets off the charge, they'll lose a bit more than their hands. This, of course, is a bit more likely, since there is nobody checking the touch hole when they're swabbing it to make sure that smoldering embers, sparks, etc. are not coming out before they put the next charge in. They are also both out in front of the guns at the same time, so that if one of them has a some sort of problem, they're both in front of a possible live muzzle. Instead of one casualty, possibly two. One has a harness dangling down that's just asking to get caught on something, which if she goes overboard, might be a blessing. And, lastly for my first glance, I'd assume that the two red boxes by the ladder are filled with powder charges and the likes. It would be better to keep them farther away from the cannons, and not in front of the fire hose which appears to be right behind them. However, as I said, I'm not a cannon expert. I'll stand back and await the experts' additional judgement.

Coastie

[Hawkyns]

Yep, you've pretty much nailed it. The only thing I would really add to it is that in that position, it is impossible to handle the tools correctly, an underhand grip with the thumbs pointing out and not wrapped around the shaft. Also, I would lay bets that it is impossible tp get the "feel" on the worm to know if there is any of the aluminum cartridge left in the breech. (they ARE using correct aluminum foil cartridges, aren't they?)

Hawkyns

[Cascabel]

Yep, you've pretty much nailed it. The only thing I would really add to it is that in that position, it is impossible to handle the tools correctly, an underhand grip with the thumbs pointing out and not wrapped around the shaft. Also, I would lay bets that it is impossible tp get the "feel" on the worm to know if there is any of the aluminum cartridge left in the breech. (they ARE using correct aluminum foil cartridges, aren't they?)

Hawkyns

The "accepted wisdom" of the underhanded grip with the thumb pointing out is really not going to help you a bit if the gun goes off while being rammed. I recently was present when a gunner suffered a badly broken arm, broken thumb, and nearly completely severed finger in a loading accident. Things happen much too quickly for any kind of "special grip" to do you any good.

If the gun goes off during loading, and no injury or slight injury is suffered, it is pure luck in my experience. I've seen several similar accidents over the years. EVERY instance I have observed was the result of not wet swabbing before re-loading. Each time the gunner was using "accepted" ramming procedure.

>>>> Cascabel

[Dorian Lasseter]

Here's a fine example of what not to do... All I have to say is god watches over fools, but these guys don't deserve it...

[Silkie McDonough]

I have never worked with a cannon. I hope to this year at PiP. However, I am intelligent enough to have been very nervous about this loading from the start! What was that fool doing standing infront of the cannon? ....and that was just the start.

Very, very frighting!

[Hawk the QM]

The "accepted wisdom" of the underhanded grip with the thumb pointing out is really not going to help you a bit if the gun goes off while being rammed.

True, not going to help you a whole lot if the cannon misfires while loading. A fired ramrod would do two things. If thumb out, then you'll break an arm and some fingers. If thumbs in, then your thumb will naturally grab the ramrod as it goes firing out, which would rip the thumb off, half of the hand and possibly an arm as well.

Truth, it's not going to help a whole lot during a misfire but thumbs in would NEVER help and thumbs out could help limit damage. My opinion anyway.

Edit:

Just a side note. There was an accident a long time ago that involved a death. The guy had his thumb down rod and it ripped is arm off. Since then, it's been a safety precaution to have thumb out. Will it really help? I dont know because the rod itself could shatter the moment a misfire happens.

Edited October 17, 2008 by Thequartermaster

[oderlesseye]

I very much appreciate the replies about saftey of firing cannon..Perhap some one might post a video link of the right way to fire a cannon..

Side Note...The Pictures abourd the California Vs the HMS Surprise are "Maritime Musuem" Qualified to do what we see...

I was an Observer with no experience firing ships guns... It is obvious that they are not conciously aware of the points brought up...personnally I think it is important enough to copy Costies & Hawkins reply and write a letter to the San Diego Maritime Museum and challange there saftey practices in exibition to the public on board. Maybe they will rethink the way they fire guns on board.

Edited October 18, 2008 by oderlesseye

[Captain Jim]

Here's a fine example of what not to do... All I have to say is god watches over fools, but these guys don't deserve it...

Oh, good lord. And the guy smoking is the one with the priming flask. And just what the hell were they stuffing down the barrel? That whole procedure is so wrong on so many levels.

I have searched for and read as many "accident reports" as I can find on cannon injuries. In every case the common mistake is not wet swabbing between shots and, presumably, not sealing off the touch hole while loading.

Can anyone tell me why it is that idiots like these have full sized cannon and I don't? My biggest is .75 and I follow loading procedure on that one! Hell, my six-year-old knows loading procedure and practices on his very own .45 calibre. (And no, he doesn't fire it unsupervised and the powder is kept in a safe.)

[Cascabel]

""Oh, good lord. And the guy smoking is the one with the priming flask. And just what the hell were they stuffing down the barrel? That whole procedure is so wrong on so many levels.

I have searched for and read as many "accident reports" as I can find on cannon injuries. In every case the common mistake is not wet swabbing between shots and, presumably, not sealing off the touch hole while loading.""

It amazes me that so many modern day idiots don't seem to realize that the wet swabbing is done for the very important reason of extinguishing sparks. Worming the barrel after firing will not get ALL of the remaining cartridge remnants for certain.

I have even heard people saying that wet swabbing is to "cool" the barrel. Come on, people, think about it !! There is not enough water or time involved to effectively cool down several hundred pounds of hot metal. Experiments have shown that a hot barrel is not likely to ignite black powder, but a remaining spark most certainly will !!!

These procedures were developed back when people fought wars with these things !! Do some folks think that in modern times the laws of physics no longer apply ???

>>>> Cascabel

[capnwilliam]

I knew we had some cannoneers on here after all!

Wormer's my favorite position, when I'm not being gun captain. My crew's 1815 era, though. We don't understand all this CW "No. 2" stuff!

Jim

Well, I'm sure every group is slightly different and some probably don't use the numbers. If memory serves me correctly, I'll go down the list (just for fun)

1. Looking down the barrel, stands on the right side of the gun at barrel's end.

Before Fire: Ramming the charge with ram end of the wet sponge.

After Fire: Wet sponge for sloppy awesomesauce. (extinguish embers and quick clean)

2. Looking down the barrel, stands on the left side of the gun at barrel's end.

Before Fire: Loading the charge (Ding Dong) after a hand delivery from the powder monkey. Yes powder monkey was indeed the correct term. To my knowledge, never given a number, but if I had to.. I would say #5 man who just stands by the ammo cart all day… boooooring (perfect job for the noobies).

After Fire: Worm (cleaning out the Ding Dong wrapper) and dry sponge to clean out the sloppy awesomesauce.

3. Looking down the barrel, stands on the left side of the gun's rear.

Before Fire: Priming wire. This is the guy with the long brass pin with a ring at the end. Slams this down the wire to puncture the charge and open up the ding dong (delicious).

After Fire: Vent pick to clean out any crap that could cause a fowling or misfire. Usually helps #4 insert and hold the primer. (Only until #4 has the lanyard snug, otherwise the primer wants to pop out while #4 walks back to firing postion).

4. Looking down the barrel, stands on the right side of the gun's rear

Before Fire: Hooks the lanyard to the primer. Yaaaaa, that's about it.

After Fire: Stands there until Before Fire: Lazy buggers!

5/Powder Monkey: Stands by the ammo crate and runs powder

Before Fire: RUN MONKEY RUN!

After Fire: RUN MONKEY RUN!

6/7/8: No reenactors needed but in Civil War they would prime the actual ammunition. Many rounds would have punch holes which had numbers on them. This is to open the round to allow fire in and ignite a fuse. The charge would then explode (say at 200 yards) instead of relying on a direct hit. Pretty nifty.

Gun Sergeant: At gun's rear but slap in the middle. These guys also generally make fun of us (in good sport) and act as a bridge between officers and peons (I mean privates/corporals). They also crack wise at the officers, bringing us peons great joy.

Before Fire: Aims and elevates the gun barrel.

After Fire: Looking pretty with those 3+ stripes. Also, making fun of us and cracking wise.

Tips:

When #4 and using the lanyard, place the handle between your knee and hip on your leg. Instead of yanking the lanyard, keep your feet in the same place but turn left. Sometimes we'll yank the lanyard but loosen the tension and sometimes the lanyard hook will bounce out of the primmer hoop. Embarrassing.

Everyone should use gloves at all time. Welder gloves are perfect, except for #4 where deerskin help with the delicate nature of the job.

Why so much Brass everywhere? It doesn't make sparks unlike steel or iron, hence a much safer experience. You don't want that priming wire setting off a charge, now would

you?

Perks of artillery.

When you get that sloppy powder/water mix on your clothes, it turns GREEN! Bringing character to your gear. Also, used primers pinned to your hat also give you more character.

Yaaaar I love to write long posts and I hope you mates like reading them =)

Everyone, feel free to message me or post with questions. A trip down memory lane =)

Our group (1815) has a Wormer, Spongerammer, Ventpick, Lintstock, Powder Monkey, and Gun Captain.

Gun Captain (rear of cannon) gives orders throughout, and pretends to sight the cannon.

Powder Monkey (rear of cannon) takes up the charge, and assists GC at pretending .

Sponge rammer (near muzzle, on right) wet-sponges before and after firing, and rams down charge.

Wormer (near muzzle, on left) worms before and after firing, and inserts charge.

Ventpick (near breech, on right) checks to make sure vent passage is clear, before and after firing, and punctures charge and inserts primer).

Lintstock (near breech, on left) ignites charge with burning cord held in lintstock.

And NOW, by Thunder: I need to go and get ready for cannon practice.

Jim

[Captain Jim]

Also add that the vent man stops the vent during the loading procedure. This does several good things for you. One, it prevents debris and sparks from being forced into and then "hiding" in the vent. Imagine a bit of smoldering debris forced up into the vent, out of reach of the sponge. The vent is not tested between first and second sponging (or maybe you only sponge once?) Powder is loaded. Vent pick is inserted forcing the ember into the powder: BOOM! Two, it demonstrates whether or not your sponge is tight enough to do the job of filling the bore as the sponge man will feel the resistence. Not enough, get a new sponge. Three, upon removal of the (well fitted) sponge a vacuum will be created which will help in extinguishing any sparks that you may have missed (which shouldn't be a problem if you wormed and sponged properly and have a clean, unpitted bore, but the extra insurance is good.)

Quitck edit for another observation: I have observed that some gun crews are using a rammer that has a sloping transition from head to handle instead of a "can" shaped head on a stick. The theory is that this shape will, in the event of a premature detonation, force open the fingers and slide through instead of having the flat end of the "can" hit your hand and take it off. Does this work? I can't tell. It seems that any cannon crew that switches to this design is already safety concious and no accident has occurred with any crew that uses it that I can find.

And another thing. Add to the duties of marine crews the moving of the gun into loading position and then into battery (running out the guns) using tackle and do it all while on your knees!

Edited October 19, 2008 by Captain Jim

[Captain Jim]

there are a lot of organizations that have rules about cannon drill. Tis one is about as good as any that I have seen and is in a PDF format. The Artilleryman cannon procedure.

And one from the North-South Skirmish Assciation: Rules. This one has a lot of information on how to run a live-fire shooting match. Loading procedure is in section 10.14.

Edited October 19, 2008 by Captain Jim

[Harry]

Well gents and ladies, I can't resist showing off my 3-inch Ordnance Rifle during a night fire. Hope you enjoy.

[Hawk the QM]

Well gents and ladies, I can't resist showing off my 3-inch Ordnance Rifle during a night fire. Hope you enjoy.

I love night firing. Really puts what you're doing into perspective. That and people respect pillars of fire. =) Great picture mate!

[Captain Jim]

I almost stole that gun last year...just couldn't fit it in my truck....

Just for general information, what was the load on that Harry?

Edited October 22, 2008 by Captain Jim

[Hawk the QM]

Just for you guys I dug up some really old photos o' me as a wee one. These were taken at Casitas many a year ago.

I love the smell of B.P. in the morning.

Me as #1 man. Just drilling, firing didnt start for a few hours.(figured i would mention that before anyone points out the lack of gloves)

Pretty maids all lined up in a row.

YAaaaaar takes me back, but I must be careful. I could drift away and never come back. =)

Harry, the good news is we would have been firing in your general direction, ha!

Edited October 22, 2008 by Thequartermaster

[Harry]

I shoot an 8oz charge from that piece. We have shot 10oz. She makes a nice noise!

That piece has also been "live" fired with a Schenkel shell. We plan to head to a CW event in March where they allow "live" firing. Unfortunately we don't allow it at the park.

I almost stole that gun last year...just couldn't fit it in my truck....

Just for general information, what was the load on that Harry?

[Captain Jim]

I can understand why you won't allow live fire at the Fort: where would you aim? Unless you fired directly into a dirt mound (and what fun is that?) there is no place, including offshore, that you could point it without the possibility of hitting something not designated as a target. I can see the headline now: "Yesterday, two miles off Key West, a small sailbaot was dismasted under mysterious circumstances. 'There was this whistle, a crack and a splash and the mast just fell to the deck...and there was no one anywhere near us...'"

[callenish gunner]

this is an image I have posted before of the 12 pound field piece that we use for our Rev. War garrison ....we load 12-16 oz. in foil or linen loads we always sponge at least 2-3 times (usually 3) in over 1000 firings we have never had an accident, but we drill over and over to make sure we get it right. I'd say we have drilled 10 times for every actual load put down the barrel. I know for a fact we drilled 100 times before we ever put a crew on the gun with powder!

[Captain Jim]

Aye, touching off a pound of BP would have a tendency to make one a bit nervous until you get used to the idea.

Speaking of nervous, does anyone here magnaflux or x-ray their barrels on a regular basis as part of an ongoing maintenence and inspection program? Do you know of anyone who does?

[Stynky Tudor]

That is a full scale reproduction M-1841 six pounder cannon on a US Civil War Carriage. We fire 1/2 pound of Black Powder per blank charge. The organizer for the Ojai Pirate Fair contacted our Master Gunner (Who owns the gun) to get a relatively large cannon at the fair. It's way out of period (like 120 years) for GAOP. We are in the process of getting the barrel (all 1,000 pounds of it) on to a period naval carriage so it will look a lot better than the current presentation, but of course the barrel will always be out of period.

-Greydog

Oi Greydog,

Do you have any pictures of that swivel gun you had at Ojai?

That thing was sweet.

[callenish gunner]

when the group first got our field piece I was working for a reactor valve manufacturer in Pittsburgh and we wanted to make sure that the cannon had no casting voids ...my partner and I did a full series of radiographic images of the barrel and did a density analysis of the metal but that was the only time we ever did that on the gun ....it tested out with no voids and consistent structural density throughout the casting ...it has only undergone visual inspection in the past 32 years since

[Harry]

The 3-inch was cast by Paulson Bros. The remainder of our field pieces were cast by my friend in Key Largo. All undergo continual visual inspection prior to and after each firing. My friend an I just finished proofing a new bronze tube yesterday afternoon. It passed inspection with flying colors. The 10-inch seacoast cannon and 8-inch siege mortar at the fort have had radiological inspections since they were cast during the CW era and before. But, the state won't let us fire those any longer, suggesting that because they are artifacts, they should not be fired. At least three CW era cannon (10-Rodman, 8-inch Columbiad and 10-inch Parrott) and the mortar are in excellent condition and could be fired. In fact, the last time we fired the siege mortar was five years ago and the 10-inch Rodman was fired in 1992.

And, talking about drills... It's good to see that others are as strict in their drill and safety as I am with my crews. I have attended events where safety practices apparently are an afterthought I can think of at least two pirate events in Florida in recent months where event organizers are lucky that no visitors were injured.