Flint/Wheel/Dog/Cap..lock Safety

[Black Deacon]

With much talk about cannon, sword and such. I want to be startin this thread on safety. There be a few that be wet behind the ears on such things. Here is an article with some great info and examples. Muzzle Blast Feel free to chime in with questions or answers. We be wantin' no loss of life or limb out there.

[Hawkyns]

Good Idea, Deacon. I applauds ye for it. And Swanny be a good man and a smart feller wi' a musket.

Not to push things too far, but The National Muzzleloading Rifle Association be a good group to be a member of, if'n ye do much w' black powder.

And for those who think we be talkin' too much safety, check this link

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/12/20/cann...h.ap/index.html

Hawkyns

[Black Deacon]

Well, few have our backgrounds in black powder, cannon and muzzle loading in general. My first was a .58 3-band Enfield. Stll hunt with it. Thinking of picking up a few Queen Ann's for the Pirate Kit. Or I've noticed a few Chariville .69 Pistols floating about.

[redhand]

Yeah, I've seen my share of near misses over

the years and almost had my ear drum blown out

during a ACW skirmish by an over eager pistol

packing ensign. Seen cartriges made with glue and

staples over the years....some people

just don't get or care that all that stuff that goes

into your barrel comes out again at XXX fps!!

Wild West reenacting, Amer. Fur Trade, ACW,

F&I and Rev War you pretty much get to see it all.

The progressive Rev War list has a great article

on cartridge rolling, I'm sure if you did a search

they'd come up...can't recall the website off hand.

Myself, I'd like to get a pair of english or german

dragoon pistols, and a little queen anne would be

nice also I just need more toys!

Redhand

[Hawkyns]

Oh ain't that the truth!!!!!! Just before I gave up on ACW (8th Texas Cav, Co. E, Terry's Texas Rangers), I saw one poor bugger get shot in the leg at close range with a Wonder Wad from a pistol. (heavy felt wad meant for live shooting, for those not in the know) . Penetrated his uniform pants and a piece into his leg! Junior officers with pistols are just as dangerous in re-enactment as they are in the real world.

Didn't know about the Rev War progressive list. Just joined the F&I progressive list, after talking with Donelyn from Smoke and Fire.

I'm working on a German wheellock right now, and after that I think a matchlock petronel is on the list. Both are after the new gun carriages, though.

Hawkyns

[Black Deacon]

At the 125 Ann. of Chapel Hill We had a cannon simulation go off about 25 ft. from us. No biggie. Started a little grass fire. The guy next to me jumps up runs over to stomp it out. As I finished dropping my kit I yelled at him. "Hey, do you know you have a grenade strapped to your butt." He clicked to the fact his cartridge pouch was on his hip and open.

We all know rule #1 & #2 in reenacting.

#1 - Never die face up in the sun.

#2 - Fire ants can resurrect the dead.

[Longarm]

Thanks, Deacan & Hawkyns. The more I come to Captain Twill the more I learn. I also find out how much more I need to learn and how much more I want to learn. My wish list isn't getting any smaller either. Thanks to you two and others in Twill I've got more web sites and books to research and look at than seems possible.

Blackpowder isn't the only place when it comes to saftey first. When I lived in Maryland there was a story of a local man who manage to shoot himself. He was fifty years old and had just finished, not two hours before, a NRA gun safety course. He sat down at his kitchen table and was showing his family what he had learned, when the gun went off and hit him in the chest killing him instantly.

Down here in SC a mans dog managed to shoot him in the leg. He had laid his shotgun down in the back of his pick-up, told his dog to get in and when it jumped in, it steped on the trigger and the gun went off.

What is bad is that in both cases the words "I thought the saftey was on." were used.

So here's a question. If most guns no matter the time period have some sort of safety device on them, and yet year after year people still manage to shoot themselves or worse yet someone else, why do we still believe and act as though these safety devices are all we need when it comes to gun safety?

[redhand]

Just remember the best safety mechanism

on a gun is between yer ears...use it!

If yer a first time BP user, get with someone local

who's experienced or jump on this here board,

those of us with years of experience are always

glad to help someone new to the hobby!

Cheers mate

Redhand

[JoshuaRed]

Is it recommended that one like myself with a great interest in period black powder arms but no interest in modern arms begin with black powder shooting, or should I take a general safety course covering all manner of arms first?

I have NO shooting experience at all, except BB guns.

However since I am fascinated with all things Colonial and piratical in nature, I yearn to experience firsthand the firing of black powder pistols and muskets to better understand what it was like in those days.

[Longarm]

Is it recommended that one like myself with a great interest in period black powder arms but no interest in modern arms begin with black powder shooting, or should I take a general safety course covering all manner of arms first?

I have NO shooting experience at all, except BB guns. 

However since I am fascinated with all things Colonial and piratical in nature, I yearn to experience firsthand the firing of black powder pistols and muskets to better understand what it was like in those days.

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you when it comes to firearms. But, from what little I do know firearm safety hasn't chaged much throught time.

1st. ALWAYS treat everygun as if it's loaded. Even if you have completely taken it apart and put it back together, with no ammunition in sight, treat as if it were loaded. More people have been injured or killed from unloaded guns than you can count.

2nd. NEVER point a gun at anyone or anything unless you intend to shoot them. Guns are not toys to be waved about and played with. They were meant to kill and they do it quite well.

I know there is more then just that but these were the first rules I was taught and they apply to any and all firearms. Both Deacon and Hawkyns have provided sights to visit that deal with black powder and from the little time I've had to explore them they look like good places to start. When Redhand said that the best safety mechanism for a gun is between yer ears, that sound like sound advice to me. If what your doing doesn't feel right or safe to you chances are your right, stop and think about what your doing and don't be afraid to ask for help. Most people who are truly into firearms and firearm safety are very willing to help and share their knowledge, and no question is to trivial or stupid. Not seeking advice is trivial and stupid.

[Longarm]

Since the topic is about Flint/Wheel/Dog/ Cap..locks what are the plusses and minuses of each?

I know flintlocks were cheaper to make and maintain than a wheellock but I've heard that the wheellock was more reliable. Is this true and how do the others stack up?

[Hawkyns]

Long answer but I'll keep it as short as I can.

Wheellocks are finicky and difficult. The wheel spinning over the pirite and through the pan must be adjusted just so, the pirite must not shatter, the wheel must not throw the prime out of the pan. That is all in addition to making sure that all the inner workings line up. They were only common for a short time and most professional soldiers got rid of them as soon as a better alternative became available. They remained as works of art and hunting curiosities into the early 19th century, but were never serious weapons after 1650. (click whirr SH*T click whirr SH*T click whirr SH*T- sound of someone firing a wheellock)

The flintlock is the workhorse of the pirate era. The first ones appeared in the 1620's and they still being used widely until the American Civil War. As family food hunting pieces, they were around until the Depression. When properly tuned and with a sharp flint, they are very reliable. As with any weapon, it takes a bit of practice and working up, but once done, you should not have any problem. Like any black powder weapon, they are suseptible to rain and damp, but a well fitting steel and pan cover can be sealed against the rain with grease. Problems are relatively minor; flints can dull or come loose, touchholes can clog. either is easily field fixable with minimum tools.

The doglock is a flintlock with an external safety catch, the doghead.

Caplocks first appear around 1810, but are extremely expensive and the caps were not reliable. By the 1830's, that had changed and by the 1850's they were the weapon of choice for up to date armies. Probably the most reliable in terms of firing, but even these have problems. The nipple clogs easily and reqires a very thin pick to clear. If that doesn't work, a specialised wrench is required to remove the nipple. Difficult to clean, also, because of the curved path that the flash channel takes from the nipple to the barrel.

Now- the caveat. I have and use use all three types and this is all my opinion. Other people may have different opinions. In the blackpowder world, there is constant debate and sniping between flintlock and caplock shooters. Some people just work better with one type.

Hawkyns

[Black Deacon]

Very well put Master Hawkyns. Sums it up pretty well. I love playing with wheel locks. I love the mechanism but they are unreliable. The spring takes such a beating and usually wears quickly. Flints are more impressive from the two bangs for your buck so to speak. Most beginners have a hard time going flint because they aren't used to a flash pan. "Wait for the second boom". I've seen many a man bruised or drop their weapon because they lowered their piece after the pan fired but not their charge. That's the biggest reason most are more comfortable with cap and ball rather than flint. Reacts more like a cartridge.

[Longarm]

Once again I thank-you for your answers. Don't worry about if they be to long. The longer the more informative I find.

Now we've established that the best way to learn about BP weapons and their uses and safety requirements is to join a relible group or organization. Several have been listed with more to follow.

Now I'ld like to know where a beginer such as myself can find a relible yet inexpensive Flintlock/wheellock/Doglock/ Caplock in which to start with. What should one look for? What should one avoid? And what should one run like hell from?

[Black Deacon]

For ease of use and safety I'd pick up a .45 horse pistol. Percussion cap. It will get you use to BP and is one of the most widley used DP pistols out there. Check out some of your local gun shows. I've seen good prices here Cherry'sas well. I'm planning on picking up a couple of Queen Anne's in a few months.

[redhand]

I'll play Devil's advocate here and disagree with

Deacon... I'd say as a begginer that I would try

and lay hands on a firelock pistol of some type.

Either a queen anne, or a nice english/german/dutch

or french pistol in 62 cal if you can muster the coin.

I have a 62 cal trade pistol and enjoy firing it as much

as I enjoy shooting my fusil. I used to have a 72 cal horse pistol

but I found it a bit much to shoot, tho fun. I also have 5 ot 6

ACW era colts and a LeMatt, all of which I've lived fired, but for

my money a firelock is the most fun, and least complicated.

all you have to do is train yourself not to flinch at the flash,

which can be done while sitting around inside (without benefit

of powder of course ) You can also sit outside and do it

by simply pouring some powder in the pan and that way you

become used the the sound of the lock, the sparks and the flash.

Good luck too ya mate!

Redhand

[Longarm]

Nice site Deacon. By the looks of there address they're not that far away for a road trip.

Next question how does one know how much powder to use for the caliber weapon one has. You can't go by the movies where you see the hero pull the plug out of his powder horn with his teeth, pours in some powder, rams down a ball and fires. Sometimes two or three times without reloading. I've seen different powder flasks and powder measurers. How were they used in real life situations, before paper cartridges came into being? In the heat of a fight did they just guess or do you get a feel for how much powder you need? To little and the ball won't go very far or have much power when it did hit. To much powder and you take a chance of haveing your weapon explode in your face, right?

[Hawkyns]

First rule of thumb- for a live ball load the grains of powder should be approximately the same as the calibre. .60 cal = 60 grains. For pistol less than .50 cal use FFF powder. For pistol, rifle and musket over .50 cal use FF powder. For blank loads, you can use about 1 1/2 times these figures. You can get FFFF powder for priming only, but most of the time, I prime with the same powder I use in the main charge.

These figures are starting points. Every weapon is different and will have it's own preference. Spending time on a range sighting in and working up loads is the only way to find out how your weapon shoots best.

NEVER LOAD FROM THE HORN!!!!! if you get a spark and a cook-off, you now have a grenade in front of your face. Always transfer from horn to measure to barrel and make sure you plug your horn before putting powder into the barrel. Paper cartridges are period from the 1580's on. Bandoliers of bottles are common until the 1680's, one premeasured charge per bottle. Paper cartridges for pistol are carried in belt boxes and are period from the 1580's.

If you go to a blackpowder gunshop, they will have some beginner books. I recommend getting one and reading carefully. Most BP gunshops are only too happy to jaw for a a while about their suggestions for the weapons they sell.

Hawkyns

[Longarm]

I know those bottles, they were called apostles were they not? Because there were usually twelve on a bandolier, right. I remember that from the School of the Musketeer.

I take it that FF and FFFF are different grades of powder. With FFFF being the finest or smallest grains. Kind of like sand paper the higher the number the finer the grade.

[hitman]

Well, few have our backgrounds in black powder, cannon and muzzle loading in general. My first was a .58 3-band Enfield. Stll hunt with it. Thinking of picking up a few Queen Ann's for the Pirate Kit. Or I've noticed a few Chariville .69 Pistols floating about.

The three band enfield I do belive I know that model(points to his flag) or could I be mistaken

[hitman]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you when it comes to firearms. But, from what little I do know firearm safety hasn't chaged much throught time.

1st. ALWAYS treat everygun as if it's loaded. Even if you have completely taken it apart and put it back together, with no ammunition in sight, treat as if it were loaded. More people have been injured or killed from unloaded guns than you can count.

2nd. NEVER point a gun at anyone or anything unless you intend to shoot them. Guns are not toys to be waved about and played with. They were meant to kill and they do it quite well.

I know there is more then just that but these were the first rules I was taught and they apply to any and all firearms. Both Deacon and Hawkyns have provided sights to visit that deal with black powder and from the little time I've had to explore them they look like good places to start. When Redhand said that the best safety mechanism for a gun is between yer ears, that sound like sound advice to me. If what your doing doesn't feel right or safe to you chances are your right, stop and think about what your doing and don't be afraid to ask for help. Most people who are truly into firearms and firearm safety are very willing to help and share their knowledge, and no question is to trivial or stupid. Not seeking advice is trivial and stupid.

I am very new to Pirating but at firearms I'm an old hand despite my youth. The advice in your quote is dead on. I haven't done or seen enough reenactments to know how they work but this is a secret my dad taught me and I'll share it here with you these rules are all you really need to know the trick is to not just know them but to live by them ALWAYS!!

[Black Deacon]

Well, few have our backgrounds in black powder, cannon and muzzle loading in general. My first was a .58 3-band Enfield. Stll hunt with it. Thinking of picking up a few Queen Ann's for the Pirate Kit. Or I've noticed a few Chariville .69 Pistols floating about.

The three band enfield I do belive I know that model(points to his flag) or could I be mistaken

You are correct there lad. Where be ya dry docked?

[Hawkyns]

I know those bottles, they were called apostles were they not? Because there were usually twelve on a bandolier, right. I remember that from the School of the Musketeer.

I take it that FF and FFFF are different grades of powder. With FFFF being the finest or smallest grains. Kind of like sand paper the higher the number the finer the grade.

They are frequently referred to a 'apostles', that is correct. However, it would seem that the term is Victorian in origin, rather than a period reference. I know of no period reference, rather they are called 'bandoliers of bottles' or just 'bottles'. Also, while 12 is a common number , there can be as few as 6 or as many as 20.

The grades are of black powder. BP comes in grades of Cannon, F, FF, FFF, FFFF, and 7F. The higher number, the finer the powder. 2,3,and 4F are the commonly used grades. Cannon and F are for very large bore. I have never actually seen 7F, although I have seen several references to it.

Pyrodex is a blackpowder substitute that has different grades and a different numbering system. That's about all I know about it. The one time I tried it, my match did not seem hot enough to ignite it. I have been told that it only works reliably with caplocks, but I don't know if this is true. Deacon??

Make sure that in any blackpowder weapon you only use BLACK POWDER. It has a very different burn curve from the modern smokeless powders used for modern cartridges, even though it may look the same. Smokeless powders expand and explode to fast and with too much pressure. They will blow up your weapon and possibly kill you.

Hawkyns

[Black Deacon]

I don't care for pyrodex for a few reasons. Now on the plus it is a cleaner burn. Doesn't dirty/fowl the weapon as fast. That's the only advantage other than availabilty at local shops that I know of.

Pydrodex doesn't have the boom and pop BP does. It measures slightly differently. More in some cases less in others to get what you need. And isn't as "Smokie". Doesn't give you as thick a cloud.

Black Powder in an EXPLOSIVE.

Pyrodex, shotgun, pistol & rifle powders "Smokeless" are PROPELLANTS. Big difference. Is the reason BP barrels are generally not as thick or as tempered as other barrels. The pressure created to extract the round from the barrel is much higher and faster burning with a propellant. I found some ballistic comparison charts. I hope this link works. Ballistic Charts

[hitman]

I be currently dry docked in the middle of no where. (With the exception thats its a day maybe two sail to the ocean I like it here) To give you an idea how far out of nowhere picture this..... outside these small towns in Georgia be what we call communities. Now these aint communities in the since city folk be useing, no this be a place that never did become a town but ounce had a store. If you drive about 6 miles from one of these and turn onto the right road you'll find me. Now if you really be into history Sherman passed not too for from here on his way to the sea and had a little dust up at a place called buckhead church. Now can you find that. Me matey