A Lady's things

[LadyBarbossa]

I am getting the *vibe* that a lot of the women are resisting doing a more commoner impression for the period because they don't want to get labelled "wench". If the use of this term persists, we are going to have pirate re-enactments with tons of pirates, and a whole bunch of "ladies" with NO common women... Personally, I would love to see a lot fewer "ladies" and more common women (to dream the impossible dream :angry:

well, m'dear.... depends upon what you define as Commoner and Lady. Gentlewoman doesn't always classify as a Lady.

I know with my Rev War impression... she's a Gentlewoman (poor at French unfortunately) of the middle class. She's no wench or poor servant lass, or whatever you want to call them. But she's no Lady, either.

It's all about the research, finding something that trips the trigger... won't come right away and will be lots of trial and errors and trying different personas until that right one comes along. Research is what keeps me in line of understanding a Gentlewoman from Charleston during the Rev War.

I can also apply this persona to the time of Blackbeard, too. learning the mannerisms, appearance and more of a Gentlewoman of that specific timeperiod as the attire and appearance was rather different in the early 1700s than the later 1700s.

Just depends upon where she is from and her locale, what would be available to her, etc.

Sterling has some good information there.

Hehehehe... Cheeky... I agree... that mantua with the gold petticoat is gorgeous! New gown to make next? :angry:

~Lady B

:angry:

[Ransom]

Having done SCA costuming for ten plus years, I agree with Lady B. A persona evolves over time. You may start out with one thing, and a year or so down the road decide that's really wrong for what you want to do. That's why, even though I'm just starting in the GAoP era, I'm not sweating the garb issue too much. I know things will change and develop. Who knows, I may even make a dress one day! LOL

Sterling is a font of information, so drink deeply.

And gentlewoman meant basically middle class, I believe. Not highclass noblewoman, not lower class poor, but much as most of us in real life are right now, middle class. This woman would find it insulting to be referred to as a 'wench' (and her papa would come looking for you!).

And oh yes, I can definately see Cheeky in that costume. But who is she going to get to hold the train of her dress?

[Capt. Sterling]

And oh yes, I can definately see Cheeky in that costume. But who is she going to get to hold the train of her dress?

One of the snotties no doubt...

Um... I understand that desire for all the little details regarding one's kit... for instance the oddball things I carry in my pocket or the lense I wear about my neck that are all pc and which work in unison for my particular character.

How many "little items" are you looking for and how are you going to explain carrying them all about on your person during an event? I mean why would you have jars of powders and scents with you? I am not asking this to be annoying, but it does make a difference regarding your character and the actual event you are attending...

For instance.... If I am in port, say for a refit of my ship. I plan to stay for a month or two... then I may take more of my individual possessions off of the ship for my stay in town. Now, if I am at an event where my crew has landed for a short spell to collect fresh water... I would bring the bare essentials really... weapons, and the clothes on my back... I wouldn't need to bring a large amount of personal things ashore..so why bring them to an event? If we are at an event like RF4, we set up a display and bring just about everything we currently have to demonstrate life on board a ship... such as traverse boards, ship's bell, and hour glass, log books, charts, navigational tools, all the weapons, spices, cargo, letters of Marque etc...etc...etc...

I think getting all the little pieces together, unless this is just a personal passion (in which case, by all means collect away... I certainly have more sh-stuff for my character than I will ever actually need at any one event) really depends on what you wish to portray and how it will fit in...just my two cents... if you could tell us more about your character we could help you focus your direction more.

And I bet this didn't make one bloody hell of a bit of sense... sorry migraine today..

[michaelsbagley]

And I bet this didn't make one bloody hell of a bit of sense... sorry migraine today..

Sorry to hear you not feeling well... I've come down with a cold myself...

Not to speak for Jessica (again ), but I think she is wanting to collect any ofand all of those little things so we can, so we can have them on hand for whatever style of event we do... Whether it is a small living history display at a local school/faire/festival showing off as many period correct do-dads as we can (whether nautical or not), or whether it is camping at PiP for a week, and just trying to have period correct grooming devices or living history project type things to work on. Like I said earlier, Jessica (who posts here as Ilanah) is curious about writing implements (anything a scribe, clerk, secretary would reasonably have) and just general grooming instraments (brushes, combs, mirrors etc.) would probably be most of what she is interested in for now.

As for the commoner/lady discussion... I think that whole thing might deserve it's own thread... But I really think it boils down to a difference in re-enactment styles, and I would rather focus on the commonalities and means of combining different re-enactment styles than risk offending someone by pointing out differences.

Thanks again to everyone for their feedback and continued help.

Sterling, try and take it easy, I've never been a migraine person, but I lived with one, and have an idea of how much pain it can cause.

[Capt. Sterling]

Hmmm I'm thinking, have her begin with a traveling trunk and start filling it with things she would take with her on a long journey... this would be something she could easily display and teach from...removing objects and explaining them... for instance...

Lady's casket...1650-80

a bit early but I have a later picture in black in white..some where... will hunt for it...

The following maybe a bit too impressive...grin...

Toiletry set

[Capt. Sterling]

Box

The following is too early but there are a number of these at Jamestown...referred to as penners, although I may be spelling this incorrectly... closer to our time frame... unfortunately my photos of them did not turn out well...(ahem...maybe because I wasn't supposed to be taking them...ahem) but will try again in the future... or at least make sketches... small cases, some elaborately made, for holding small writing instruments for transporting...

Pen case

Oh and for Cheeky

Mask

[Captain Pogue]

So, Ilanah is looking for any and all period "do-dads" that a lady might have. The info Capt. Sterling is throwing out will be most useful. The more stuff that comes to light the more choices.

But I'm going stick my finger in the stew so to speak and get a bit more specific. The good Capt. said to ditch the gun for my wife. I was wondering why? Women had specific clothes to go out hunting, did they not "hunt" or were they more of minding the picnic? I would think that they actually got around to shooting at something.

So within the set of "A Lady's things" what would she wear if she were and possess while hunting? I've seen hunting bags, but none really geared towards women. Were Ladies allowed to shoot guns? What kind of things would they take hunting with them?

Anyone seen anything that might help out?

Thanks,

Pogue

[Kate Souris]

Thank you, Sterling. That website was -incredibly- helpful and had some beautiful things on it. I am not by any means trying to gather everything at once in one fell swoop, but I wanted to obtain a visual of some of the items to keep my eyes open for. I had tried surfing the net to find these things, but never found anything of relative importance.

Either way, I have been perusing that website for the better part of an hour (working around trying on my new stays that Michael just completed half hour ago...pictures soon to come I imagine). Thanks!

[michaelsbagley]

Hey Pogue,

If you look at Sterling's post about two thirds to three quarters of the way down the page on the first page of this thread, there is a picture of a lady in a riding habit with a fowler...

I believe I have seen other images similar to that one (sorry I can't find them at the moment), but I would guess that the fact that such imags exist, would lead one to believe that ladies did in fact hunt and shoot. I've not seen anything that I would describe as a ladies hunting bag... But Sterling definately seems to have a much better collection of sources than I do (by a HUGE stretch I am guessing)..

So perhaps the hunting bag is a uni-sex item (no particular mens or womens version), or perhaps, the women in the various portraits left thier hunting bags on their horses?

[Capt. Sterling]

Oh I'm not against a fusil de chasse.. I would just question, in your run of the mill event, port town scenario... why on earth would she be walking around in hunting attire carrying such a weapon? The right event, right scenario... sure it would work, but I haven't seen that kind of event just yet... but in port? If she were able to go hunting, odds are she would have someone else bring the gun to town for repairs...

[Capt. Sterling]

Thank you, Sterling. That website was -incredibly- helpful

Either way, I have been perusing that website for the better part of an hour (working around trying on my new stays that Michael just completed half hour ago...pictures soon to come I imagine). Thanks!

Glad you had fun Lady...

[Captain Pogue]

That is an awesome website...

I'm a bit confused, it may be from me using "hunting" a bit too much. She's getting a riding habit, which was used for travel as well as hunting, fashionable undress. Am I off on that? Your remark about walking around port dressed in hunting attire concerns me that I've got some incorrect assumptions about a riding habit. Unless your thinking of something else other than a riding habit, or a riding habit with all of the hunting equipment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Pirates are able to walk around port with guns, is it my 21st century mentality that keeps getting in the way?

I can't argue about the gun issue at port, just trying to get a good grasp on period ettiquette for women and guns. As well as an idea if there was specific hunting gear for women. Would it have been odd to see a woman that was out hunting carrying her own gun? Or a woman that liked hunting? Was there no concern for women's hunting gear because only women of a certain status went hunting and those women had a gun caddy(servant/valet)? Just trying to stay on topic about a Lady's things, in regards to hunting.

Granted, it all boils down to what event one is attending.

Thanks,

Pogue

There a bit later than GAoP, seeing how the artist John Collert wasn't born until 1925, so I'm not sure if they apply. A powder horn is visible in the second image.

Lady Mary Chruchhill at the Killing of the Hare

[Hawkyns]

Just to hark back to the beginning of this thread for a moment. My grandfather was born in Warwickshire at the beginning of the last century. The term 'wench' was still in use and meant nothing than an unmarried girl. he used it fairly regularly. I'm rather afraid the rennies have much muddied the waters concerning this.

Hawkyns

[JoshuaRed]

I'm rather afraid the rennies have much muddied the waters concerning this.

No one should be surprised by that...they're first class champs at that sort of thing!

[Capt. Sterling]

I'm a bit confused, it may be from me using "hunting" a bit too much. She's getting a riding habit, which was used for travel as well as hunting, fashionable undress. Am I off on that?

Your remark about walking around port dressed in hunting attire concerns me that I've got some incorrect assumptions about a riding habit. Unless your thinking of something else other than a riding habit, or a riding habit with all of the hunting equipment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Pirates are able to walk around port with guns, is it my 21st century mentality that keeps getting in the way?

Hunting attire or traveling clothes are both correct for what we call a lady's riding habit... my concern is the long gun. For her to walk around port/town with such a garment is fine for traveling... I am just questioning the long gun. Why would she be hunting in town? Why would she be carrying it in town? Hunting, especially for a lady dressed in such a fashion, was pretty much a sport for the well to do...if she is going into town I think odds are she would bring along a servant for protection, and he might be armed. She could be armed as well, but with such an obvious weapon? As for hunting, once she was done hunting odds are she would pass that gun off to someone else to carry as well.

Remember hunting then is done for survival or for sport...those that need it to survive aren't wearing fancy silk gowns to hunt in...and odds are the men of the family are seeing to that task. For sport we are talking about them with the means to do so...not like in the US now a days.

[Capt. Sterling]

I am sorry I am not making much sense as of late... my apologies

[Captain Pogue]

No worries Capt., your making sense. I'm just trying to get a good sense of women/firearms/ and the stuff related to hunting that women would carry. I understand what your saying about a woman carrying a gun. That was the age of the weaker sex and they'd probably have a servant tag along to do all of the carrying. Especially if they shot something. I'm just trying to dig deeper and get as much as I can out of the topic of the thread. I'd love to make a hunting bag that would befit a lady, just need ot know what they looked like

I was thinking more of along the lines of travelling thru port or aboard a ship, carrying a gun would be for protection. Beinging a lady a fowling piece seemed natural, if she enjoyed hunting. Due to circumstances not being able to bring a trusted servant...

Pogue

[Lady Alyx]

Michael, what do you want all these things for, I mean to carry all this unnecessary stuff around for reenactment is kind of strange. Do you want these items for the house or when you go to reactments or faires?

I am surprised not more women have answered this posting. Wenches are usually from the lower class working ranks like barmaids. I am sure more pirates were with barmaids than upper class women, unless they had plenty of money and were a handsome rogue.

A couple of things women had that I know you can add to her wardrobe for practical use is a small hand mirror and some kind of cologne scented handkerchief or pomander, due to the streets smelled so.

This website had a really cool listing to go through

Glosarry of 18th century

[michaelsbagley]

Michael, what do you want all these things for, I mean to carry all this unnecessary stuff around for reenactment is kind of strange. Do you want these items for the house or when you go to reactments or faires?h

Lady Alex,

I don't particularily want any of these things... I was asking on behalf of my other half... Who has since logged in and started posting for herself... Knowing the people here a bity better than she does and hopefully having more of an idea of how to approach certain questions, I have still tried to add focus to this thread on behalf of my girlfriend here and there where I could...

Now as to carrying these things to re-enactments. I have stated in a previous post that the intention is NOT to carry all of these things to every re-enactment. There are many different style of re-enactments, for a re-enactment display at a local function, having LOTS of trinkets and period do-dads can make for a more interesting display. For a long road trip to a longer re-enactment that involves camping, going minimal is as Sterling suggested the best idea (I know this from personal experience as well). And of course bringing any of these do-dads to a faire or festival where we would be walking around all day, would just be rediculous.

And yeah, I do like having strange and odd re-enactment do-dads as home decor items. If only I can get Jessica to agree with my decor sense more... Just kidding.

[Lady Alyx]

No problem, was just wondering, now it makes sense!!!! Good luck on yer treasure hunt of finding things! The other day I had a search on tricorns..and the cutest vintage from the 1800's or so a tricorn pin holder (it seemed just for straight pins) and it folded flat but could fold out into a tricorn. (the pins were kept in the center of the hat)..was the cutest thing. If I find that pic I will post it here.

[Mary Diamond]

Speaking from my personal experience ~

When the scenario calls for it, I carry 2 Queen Anne Pistols, a sword, and a cartridge box (which I believe you are calling a hunting bag?) on a belt. In addition to the riding habit, it feels like carrying an additional 20 pounds around your waist. And that is not even considering the items in my pockets! (Camera, handkerchief, lip balm, doubloons, mini-wallet, phone).

After 8 hours at PiP in my wool riding habit, with pistols & cartridge box, wearing sensible buckle shoes, my back was begging for mercy. That being said, I never had to worry as to where I was going to set my guns down (both being secure in my belt). A fowler will constantly keep at least one hand occupied, and it easily knocked over when set down. (I personally prefer both hands free to drink and shop at will.)

I would advise Ilanah to first wear the many layers of a riding habit, before attempting to carry around a large and awkward firearm, which can weigh 6 pounds or more. Also, keep in mind that the riding habit was a common travel outfit, so it would not be necessary to carry a gun at all times. And, for purposes of self-preservation in town, I could hardly think of a less cumbersome item for a woman to aim in a quick fight. It would be easier to use it as a club!

Embroidery featured quite highly in a ladies wardrobe ~ as purses were not used commonly, a pair of lovely embroidered linen pockets under a ladies petticoats were actually one of the things counted amongst "A Ladies Things". A few common embroidered items ~

Embroidered stomacher 1720-40

Embroidered pockets 1760-80

Embroidered apron 1740

[Salty]

^lovely pics

for those of us not playing the grand lady and or doubling as a lad when the fighting gets fun, errrrr heavy, is there a way to make accesories that will handle both personas?

[Mary Diamond]

Embroidery was to show off the skill of a lady of means, who would have had the time to invest in such elaborate items. A more common lady would have been hard pressed to find the time for such detail, but would still have owned linen pockets, stomacher and apron.

Items that would work interchangeably for a lad and a lady ~ well, that gets a bit more difficult. Off the top of my head, I think of eating utensils, plate and mug. A folding knife. Linen handkerchief. Possibly writing items and a pocket watch, though that really depends on the status of the characters you would play.

Don't forget ~ ladies can be involved in fights As Ladies! Bess and I fight each other ~ she with her giant spoon, me with my smallsword. Funny, she always wins! Maybe it is because I can't cook... and don't recognize the thing coming at my head. The more ladies that participate as ladies, the easier this becomes.

[Kate Souris]

It's taken me a while to get this posted up here...but at RF4, we got some 'ladys things'. Michael bought me a small hand mirror and a cobalt blue inkwell and a prayer book. I also got my writing set as well.

I collect 'stuff', not necessarily to carry it all around, but for the set up of it, if that makes sense. Really....I don't carry all that much on my person when I am at an event, so I think we are doing well with the stuff gathering.

If any one has any other ideas, please let me know! :)

[Cheeky Actress]

Kate,

You may want to consider other items related to your faith.

Other than the bible, you may want to consider a period rosary...(depending on your faith, of course).

I do have such an item for sale. I can email you a photo of it if you were to PM me. Thank you.