Getting dirty or how not look brand new

[Commodore Swab]

bump

[blackjohn]

eh... I keep thinking of Snelgrave... and the fact that the pirates continually stole his clothes until he was down to what, just one shirt as I recall.

You guys can reenact the poor unsuccessful bastards who didn't steal new duds if you want, but not me.

[Brit.Privateer]

well, he doesn't have to be unsuccessful to be poorly clothed. Edward Ward depicts sailors of the period as men who would gamble and sell off their clothes if they had but one rag still left, and other period descriptions show that as well. Snelgrave describes how the pirates caroused with throwing wine on things such as blankets and then throwing the stuff over the side. Pirates and Sailors appeared back then to be very wasteful and easily thrown into a position of shabbily being dressed It doesn't seem very far off that even moderately successful pirate might have mediocre or what you would describe as poor quality clothing. But I guess it's the choice of the reenactor ultimately, no way I can tell anyone how to dress.

[blackjohn]

I actually like a bit of variety in the impression. Everyone too clean would be wrong, that's fairly certain.

Since the topic of this thread is dirt and grunge, and as you point out pirates throwing wine on each other is documented, wine stains would be appropriate.

[LadyBarbossa]

Workin' on a new sleeved waistcoat and pondering about a bullet hole with a touch of blood somewhere around it.

Would just slightly burning the hole be a bit proper and accurate or is that just a Hollywood farb?

~Lady B

[Dutchman]

if you are shot from afar just a plain torn out hole will work. a really good example is from Master and Commander where the surgeon removes his own round and pulls the patch out. If its a close up shot, you will have the "tattoo" from the burning powder. the bullet hole itself will not be burnt as the ball would be travelling too fast to burn the material, but the surrounding area will be flashed over. When you apply the blood make sure its running down hill from the hole. sounds a simple observation- but an uphill blood spatter just does not work.

[Commodore Swab]

Workin' on a new sleeved waistcoat and pondering about a bullet hole with a touch of blood somewhere around it.

Would just slightly burning the hole be a bit proper and accurate or is that just a Hollywood farb?

~Lady B

In 07 I was firing The mortar and the primer caught me somewhere and I started to bleed. In no time at all I had at least 5 people offering to help, I hadn't even noticed. A perfect chance to let a little blood into my costume

Edited May 17, 2009 by vintagesailor

[theM.A.dDogge]

Workin' on a new sleeved waistcoat and pondering about a bullet hole with a touch of blood somewhere around it.

Would just slightly burning the hole be a bit proper and accurate or is that just a Hollywood farb?

~Lady B

or.... ...ya could just take it out back....and shoot it!??!....

...no really...it works...but gotta be from a nearly point blank range to get powder burns(anything 10 - 20 fett away burns are't as substantial or noticable)

of course i feel obliged to mention...dont be wearrin the coat at the time...

Edited May 17, 2009 by M.A.d'Dogge

[Dorian Lasseter]

A couple things to think about;

Dyes were not colourfast as most are today. several of my shirts and such have colour transfer from other garments and items. I have red stains on the shoulders from a shoulderbag with a red strap, leather stains from belts and other straps. Plus gun oil and powder stains as well as grass stains.

Also, I try not to wash my kit. If I do, say I really bodge it up, I use the gentle cycle, or there are some machines that have a 'hand wash' cycle... or even actually hand wash it, and Never put it in the dryer.

As for being dirty/grungy myself... out of necessity I'll keep my hands pretty clean... but tar stains or some such can stick in your skin and won't come out unless you really scrub.

[Dutchman]

completely off topic, but last summer we were on the range with the long guns at work qualifying when one of the officers starts fidgiting around. The line was prone and I looked over to see smoke rising from his back. I ran over to put him out and tried to figure out what set him a-smolderin. Turns out the range master, who was retiring that week put a sun reflection on him with a range magnifier. The officer never did realize what it was and I figured it was easier to blame it on hot brass. Anyhow, the shirt is still worn and i have to laugh everytime i see the burn.

Edited May 17, 2009 by bbcddutchman

[LadyBarbossa]

Dogge... I've no powder, no rounds... an' certainly cannot fire off m' pistol or carbine in city limits. Th' local law enforcement frown upon that.

Oh, I'm leanin' towards it lookin' like I took th' "fine" coat from the body of a fool I shot! :) I might do this, I might not. We shall see. Course if I likes it, do it, then don't want th' hole... I can patch it back up.

~Lady B

[ThomasBlackthorne]

Oi! I must admit, for a while, I looked to be too clean. So, I had myself an idea, "what about tea?" My shirt used to be pristine white, made out of 60% rayon 40% nylon and nigh stainable, save for fabric dye...but...

I decided to experiment with some household elements, which would not be TOO hazardous to me garb, as I really have but one shirt.

So, I took a 5 gallon bucket, filled it with almost scalding hot water, threw 4 lipton sun tea bags in it (they're larger than normal, about two times the size) and let it steep for a few minutes. After it became dark enough, I placed my pre-soaked shirt into the bucket, and vigorously worked the fabric. It should only take a few minutes to suitably stain a pristine white garment to a decently dingy off white, sweat stained workhorse of a garment. Plus the tea leaves a slightly pleasant scent...if you like that sort of crass. Just keep in mind pre-soaking keeps the fabric from absorbing TOO much stain...

Also, for thicker pants (i.e. less than dressy pants), wire brushes, and wood scrapers do indeed work wonders. I don't personally own any pants like that, but I've helped friends attain some weathering...

OH, I forgot to mention, after me stupid drunken escapdes with blades, blood tends to stain VERY VERY nicely, even if the fabric gets wet again...

As for facial/skin treatment, burnt wood works f*cking wonders. Just grind some charred wood in yer hands and apply accordingly to yer face, plus that leaves yer hands already treated. Two birds with one cannon ball...just wipe it on yerself to help the garb as well...

[CaptainSatan]

I wear my garb camping & trekking.

In addition to really freaking out Japanese tourists. It helps my clothing and gear have a natural broken in appearance.

I also wash my whites with real soap to make them a lovely dingy shade of grey.

Edited May 22, 2009 by CaptainSatan

[Northwest Jack]

Up in the Northwest where I live, everybody has a cedar deck out back and it gets filthy with a kind of green, brown, black mung that looks great when you scrub your clothes across it. Nothing works better that dirt! Best of all, if you don't like it, a little Biz laundry detergent eats all the organic crud away and you can start over.

[CaptainSatan]

To age clothes for a movie I will sometimes soak it in tea, coffee, soy sauce, etc.

Other times I might sand paper the seams, bury it in damp earth for while, or leave

it hanging out in the sun, machine wash it repeatedly, and dry it with plastic

shrapnell (in the dryer).

I have also made made cuts and rips. Washed the items a few times. Some of which

I repaired with heavy thread. Other tears I left alone. I like how unhemmed slops

look.

I know one costumer that pounds clothes with rocks (ha ha)!

[Cpt. Alva]

Find out how / if period sailors washed their clothes, and try and simulate that. The real stains will stay in, probably.

not to sound disgusting, but real sailors washed their clothes in stale piss.

the ammonia actually worked as a pretty good disinfectant.

[Guest]

not to sound disgusting, but real sailors washed their clothes in stale piss.

And where exactly did they store said "stale piss" ?

[Niko]

Find out how / if period sailors washed their clothes, and try and simulate that. The real stains will stay in, probably.

not to sound disgusting, but real sailors washed their clothes in stale piss.

the ammonia actually worked as a pretty good disinfectant.

Not to start a huge debate here but isnt that just a myth?

I'd just use lye soap.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Niko

[CaptainSatan]

Before soap was invented the Romans used stale urine to wash clothes.

This practice continued until at least as late asTudor times. But I cannot

locate any documentation after the Tudor era. But just because I cannot

locate any later documentation doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It took weeks of exposure to air for stale pee-pee to reach the right

level of ammonia. And it was a very smelly process. I am not saying

that it didn't happened. But it does not seem a very practical

way to wash your clothes on a ship.

Edited June 7, 2009 by CaptainSatan

[Cpt. Alva]

until you consider that stale piss is also the primary source of potassium nitrate, a key ingredient in GUNPOWDER. Which was a necessity aboard ship.

that's not proof for, but it's definitely a good cause for supposition.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Cpt. Alva

[CaptainSatan]

I have used stale pee from a pretty girl to make my own black powder before.

The stinky pee pee was used during the wet mixing stage in place of water.

I am sure that is has been done before. But I doubt if there

were many ships had their own on board black powder factories.

If any one knows of any examples of ships making their own powder at sea.

Please let me know I am just stating my common sense opinion. And I am

open to any evidence that disproves my opinion,

It is easier and safer to mix your black powder on land.

For those you that are interested there is a good rustic

black powder recipe in one of the Foxfire books.

From The Foxfire Book, Volume 5 -1979 The Foxfire Fund; Published by Doubleday Books

"Black powder is and isn't hard to make depending on which end you look at it from. It is a long and tiresome task if you make more than ten pounds at a time.

"Out on the West Coast, as in some southern states, the trend by the government is to prevent its sale with mountains of red tape. Making your own black powder, however, is not unlawful as yet, as far as I know."

"By weight measure, black powder is made of seventy-five parts saltpeter finely ground, fifteen parts charcoal, and ten parts sulfur. All ingredients must be fine ground separately. This can be accomplished with either a mortar and pestle, or with a hand-cranked flour mill. Never mix all three ingredients before grinding unless you want to turn your mill into a deadly grenade, or your mortar into a cannon that can blow off your fingers or even your hand."

"Then the ingredients can be mixed with a small amount of water so the mixture comes out with biscuit-dough consistency. Usually when I mix the ingredients, I add just enough stale urine to make the batch bunch about like biscuit dough. The urine, substituted for water, gives the powder more oxygen and higher performance."

"Flowers of sulfur is ideal for gun powder, and it can be bought in most drug stores in four-ounce bottles or pound cans."

"It can also be found in pure deposits around volcanoes, and in early times, because it was found where molten lava issued from the earth, the sulfur condensed around the rims of the volcanoes was called brimstone."

"Today, in certain places around the world, sulfur is recovered from un- derground deposits by pumping live steam underground through pipes. The sulfur melts and, being lighter than water, is easily pumped out at another point close by. Then it is pumped into big ships that haul it to industries all over the world. That's why you can buy a hundred-pound sack for about three dollars in most places.

"Saltpeter, the chemical that produces the oxygen for the other ingredients when lit off, can he made by putting urine and manure of any kind in a big cement tank mixed with water until you have about three hundred gallons mixed up. Then you put on a tight lid and let it sit for about ten months. You have to have a drain pipe and valve at the bottom, and a stainless steel filter screen installed beforehand or you'll have one big mess on your hands. At the end of that time, you run the liquid that drains off through ashes into shallow wooden trays lined with plastic sheeting and let them stand for evaporation in the sun. When the water evaporates, potassium nitrate crystals (saltpeter) will form in the bottom of the trays."

"In the old days in cities, most outhouses were fitted with trays or drawers under the seats that could be pulled out from behind the building. They had night-soil collectors who were paid so much every month by the outhouse owners to keep those drawers emptied, and they'd come around with a special wagon into which they dumped the contents. When the wagon was full, it was hauled out to where another fellow bought the contents and dumped it into concrete tanks where the bacteria works it just like yeast works wine or bread dough. Then the liquid was run through ashes into shallow tiled or plain concrete evaporating trays or basins to recover the saltpeter."

"Today, saltpeter can also he bought in most drug stores in bottles or cans."

"Charcoal provides the carbon needed when the powder is lit off. When burning, the carbon assists in making potassium carbonates and carbon sulfates during the one one hundredth of a second that it is burning. Most of this is released at the muzzle of a smoke pole in the form of powder smoke. Some remains in the barrel in the form of fouling and should be swabbed out about every third shot if the shooter wants the round ball to continue to shoot true."

"The charcoal should never be made from hardwood as hardwood has too much ash. Such woods as chinaberry, willow, cottonwood, soft pine with no knots, or redwood and Western cedar make the best grade charcoal. A fifty-five-gallon drum with a snap-on lid and a match-stem-sized hole in the lid set over a fire Pit is a good charcoal maker. Take the wood and chip it or cut it into inch chunks and put a bucketful in the drum. Then build a hardwood fire under the drum and when smoke begins to spurt from the vent, light the wood with a match. When the flame goes out, your charcoal is made. Rake the fire out from under the drum, plug the vent with a bit of asbestos fiber or a nail that fits in tight, and let the drum sit overnight to cook. You can then crush and powder the charcoal with a mortar and pestle, or run it through a hand-cranked grain grinder to a flourlike fineness. "

"By the way, Just yesterday I took time out and made batch of powder, and this time, when I mixed the ingredients, I added homemade alder charcoal instead of redwood and improved the powder's performance 100 per cent. I recently bought a tight little sheet-metal heater stove for camp cooking and by accident discovered that getting a load of alder going good and then closing it UP tight and dampering it until it went out and turned cold converted the alder into nice pure charcoal. "

"When making black powder, never add any other ingredients or explosive powders unless you wish to turn your muzzle loader into a grenade that can kill you or cripple you for life. Keep your black powder stored in steel, airtight cans in a cool, dry place, and out of the reach of children. My parents failed to do that, and I've carried powder marks on my face for the last thirty years. A ten-year-old may think he knows what he's doing, but ten years don't give him enough prudence to think many things out ahead of time before he lights that match."

"The nice thing about shooting black powder is that commercial black costs about two cents a round, and homemade about a half-cent a round. "

As the demand for powder grew in the Southern Appalachians, fairly large operations came into being for its manufacture. As Jim Moran told us, "Powder was made in this area. The big powder mill that was around here is gone now--the place burned up and all. But it was on Boozy Creek, and it was operated back in the early 1800s and possibly before by the Hughes family. They were also gunsmiths. They were somehow connected with the blockhouse which was on the Wilderness Road. That was where Boone wintered after his son was bushwhacked on the Wilderness Road. Now that was quite a settlement around there. One winter I went up on Timbertree Branch near the blockhouse site and there were about ten or fifteen cabins around there made out of poplar logs. They were only about twelve feet square--didn't have any windows or anything in them. I think they were the residue of that holdup of immigration when those people got that far and they were afraid to go on. I went back over there about five years ago, but there's none of that left there now."

"But these Hughes, they ground that powder on millstones. I found that out. I know one man who found the old order book for the powder mill. He had it photostated. That mill blew up twice. One time they found shoe tacks in the charcoal. The story was that it was sabotaged. One time it blew a fellow's hand off."

"Willow charcoal is what they used for the powder. And then saltpeter- you know you hear about saltpeter caves. Over around Saltville they've found a lot of the vats and stuff where they leached that out from bat guano. That was done during the Civil War. In fact, they've uncovered one of those caves in the last ten years or so and found the vats still intact in the cave. That's Saltville, which is about thirty-five or forty miles north of here. And the same thing in Big Stone Gap. Powder for the Battle of King's Mountain was made on Powder Branch near Erwin, Tennessee."

Another of these operations was located in Mammoth Cave. Recently, in a remarkable experiment there, potassium nitrate crystals from saltpeter were produced again in the traditional method. Carol A. Hill, one of the coordinators for the Saltpeter Research Group, describes the procedure that was used that day:

"Before the 187Os, caves were the primary source of nitrate used in the manufacture of gunpowder. Saltpeter mining was one of the first major industries of the new frontier, and one of the principle objectives of exploring new territory was to find saltpeter caves. Caves were mined by individuals and also commercially for national defense purposes during the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, and the Civil War. Many homesteaders in the Virginias, Kentucky, and Tennessee had their own individual saltpeter caves and from them would make their own gunpowder in home-constructed V-vats or 'hoppers.'

"Making a V-vat entailed using a peg-and-hole construction. The holes were made with a hand auger; the pegs by whittling down the end of a log with a hatchet and then by trimming with a knife . The frame was then pounded together with a wooden mallet . A froe was used to make the side boards. Bolts of wood that were straight-grained and well seasoned were the best for this purpose. The glut was used as a wedge to split the log base of the collecting trough. The trough was then hewn out with a foot adze and hatchet. After the hopper was constructed, twigs were laid in the bottom of the vat, and then wheat straw was laid on top of the twigs and along the side boards to help keep the vat from leaking.

"Cave dirt was tested for its nitrate potential by the following procedure: A footprint or mark was made in the dirt and left for twenty-four hours. If the print was scarcely visible by the next day, then the dirt was deemed high in niter. A mattock was used to break up the cave dirt, and a wooden saltpeter paddle was used for digging and scraping The dirt was removed from the cave in gunny sacks and poured on top of the twig and straw in the V-vat. Buckets of water were then poured over the saltpeter dirt to leach it of its nitrate or 'Mother liquor'. The mother liquor (also sometimes called 'beer' would run down the sides of the V-vat and into the split-log base and out into the collecting trough. A dipper gourd was often used to transfer the mother liquor into a container. This same liquor was poured again and again over the saltpeter dirt because releaching caused more nitrates to be dissolved. According to the old reports, releaching went on until the solution was of sufficient density to float an egg.

"The next step was to combine the mother liquor rich in calcium nitrate with wood ashes that contain high amounts of potassium hydroxide. The best woodashes for this purpose were made by burning hardwoods such as oak and hickory. The mother liquor was either poured directly over the woodashes or the woodashes were leached in barrels and the leachate directly combined with the mother liquor. Upon combination, a white haze could be seen , and this white precipitate (calcium hydroxide or 'curds' as it was called) would slowly sink to the bottom of the barrel. If the solution contained an excess of calcium nitrate, the product was termed 'in the grease.' An excess of woodashes produced a condition called 'in the ley.'

The wood ash leachate was poured into the mother liquor until the white curds could no longer be seen precipitating out of solution. The remaining solution thus contained the still soluble potassium nitrate. This solution was dipped out into an apple-butter kettle (or"evaporator'), and a fire started under the kettle. Turnip halves were then thrown into the boiling solution to help keep it from foaming and to take up the dirty brown color. Oxblood (or alum) was also added to the boiling liquid and caused the organic matter to rise to the top of the liquid and form a scum which, with continued boiling, was constantly ladled off. After a few hours of boiling, the hot liquor was poured through cheesecloth in order to filter out the remaining scum and organic material. Upon cooling, fine, bitter, needle-shaped crystals of niter (potassium nitrate) formed in the liquor. These crystals were then collected and dried. Potassium nitrate crystals were far superior to calcium or sodium-nitrate crystals because they are non-deliquescent (do not take up moisture from the air) and, hence, would not make the gunpowder wet and unusable. The nitrate crystals thus obtained had to be further refined and purified. This purification procedure was done either by the individual and homemade into gunpowder, or it was done after the saltpeter crystals were sent to a refinery where the final gunpowder was made."

Edited June 12, 2009 by CaptainSatan

[Guest]

Making your own black powder, however, is not unlawful as yet, as far as I know."

I'm not sure about this... but the Black Powder Forum will not discuss making your own powder.... I think "they" changed some of the rules after 9/11..... I'm not sure, but I don't think we are suppose to talk about how to do so... (but you can still find the information in books...)

[Hawkyns]

Making your own black powder is a recipe for disaster. I've been working with BP and pyrotechnics for over a quarter century and am really comfortable around the stuff. I will not, under any circumstances, even attempt to make my own. The companies who make it have the right facilities, safety protocols, and training to do this without losing limbs and life. DON'T DO IT!!!!!

Hawkyns

[Hawkyns]

To return to the original topic, why artificially age things? I've seen this argument many times and in many different forums. Even in period, everything had to be new at some point. The best way to age your kit is just to wear it. Travel in it to the event. Put it on before you set up your tent. Wash dishes, clean firearms, cook over the fire, swab the cannon. Put it on to weed your garden and mow your lawn. If you are lucky enough to have a ship to work on, wear it every minute you are on board, including sleeping. This will put stains in the right places and wear marks where they should be. Artificially aged looks artificially aged. Not a good idea.

Hawkyns

[MarkG]

To return to the original topic, why artificially age things? I've seen this argument many times and in many different forums. Even in period, everything had to be new at some point. The best way to age your kit is just to wear it. Travel in it to the event. Put it on before you set up your tent. Wash dishes, clean firearms, cook over the fire, swab the cannon. Put it on to weed your garden and mow your lawn. If you are lucky enough to have a ship to work on, wear it every minute you are on board, including sleeping. This will put stains in the right places and wear marks where they should be. Artificially aged looks artificially aged. Not a good idea.

Hawkyns

The idea is to make your pirate garb look like clothing instead of a costume. Yes, everything started out new at some point but few people had the resources to replace everything at once. Also, clothes got a lot of wear so they didn't look new for long. Clothing was still sold used, especially in England, so many people never wore clothing that looked new.

This was even more true for pirates who often plundered their clothing. Some articles gave a clothing exception to the rule that everything went into a common store to be sold and shared equally. If you had a worn-out piece of clothing and someone on a captured ship had a newer piece in your size then you could take it without counting against your share.

Now, if you are portraying a noble then you would throw out everything that showed any wear (or sell it in the used clothing shop).

Mark