Faire vs Re-enactment

[Hawkyns]

Here's at least some answers/opinions for ya, Hurricane. First, as I said, much of what we do is at private events where there is no paying public. The rest of what we do is at living history timelines, where people do come to see the life. And we're not so stiff, thank ye!. If I am at a faire, it's as a member of the paying public. I go to see and hear the musicians, eat the food, and shop, in a semi period village environment.

Never said re-enacting was the be-all and end- all. I very specifically said there is room for all and acknowledged that many people DO want to be entertained. Places like Williamsburg and Jamestown and Plimoth are having hard times for many reasons. The lack of teaching and fostering history in schools, for instance. The impact of computer technology and it's resulting need for instant results without thinking. The corporate idea that history doesn't bring enough profits. I could go about this all night. But it is still the primary reason for why some of us do this.

Goes back to the old idea of 'If I could go back in a time machine........' I'm not in this to perform to the public. I've been playing this game for 25 years, sometimes to huge crowds, sometime to 2 bored people, sometimes to no-one but myself, out trekking in the woods with nothing but period kit and weapons to survive whatever nature throws at me. I'm interested in the mindset and the skills, trying to get into the mind of those who have gone before, to experience what I can of their life. Yes, I'm one of those who does not feel at home in the 21st century. So I escape it as much as possible.

AS far as children, nothing scary about them. I just don't have the skills to communicate on their level and they can't do so on mine. So I don't. My patience is not unlimited enough to be parent. Neither will it stretch to the point of dealing with all the 'problems' that children present. I'd much rather concentrate my efforts and skills where they'll be appreciated, whether it be a visitor who discusses the history, or a shipmate who'll sing the period songs until the fire dies.

Hawkyns

[CaptJackSparrow]

I'm a bit surprised at the statements made here about the "run screaming from the room" attitude when dealing with children comes up. Do children want to talk endlessly a pointlessly about fabric, caliber, wood type, weapon range, battle tactics, authentic jerky.....NO......and not very many adults do either in general. Those who do are hardcore living history people and are probably in another re-enactment group already to begin with and that conversation is the norm. Generally most "civilians" you will come in contact with are not "in the know' and do not deserve to be looked at as if they had an A-hole for head when they don't address you in proper timeline speech and lingo. Children are the best audience in some respect as this is when they will develop a great interest in the things they will carry with them later. I have nothing, I repeat nothing against the living history folks, I thoroughly enjoy it. The age piracy has one thing that almost no other "re-enacment" group has......the ability to be both accurate and romantic and everywhere in between. To me, entertainment value is key to attracting the intrest of someone who may not have been, after that you may be able to pass along the history and accuracy if they want to venture further. I myself try to sit on the fence and balance a little of both.

Jack

[darkRose]

I wrote an earlier post...that was much longer than the one there now...and I want to figure this out...It looks like its all in what our objective is....play to an audience...play to other "re-inactors, rennies...whatever"

The problem does not lie with anybody that I have seen post in this topic. Everybody has their own ideas and pretty much we all agree that each has his own place....however as a garb vendor....it is very hard to have paytrons who are interested in dressing for the first time in your booth when one of the garb natzis comes by and announces loudly that t your stuff isn't good enuff....My patterns are authentic...including my shirts, trewes, and doublets....but I use a sewing machine...sorry....but the same out fit that will cost a paytron $125.00 from me ...if it were hand sewn would be way out of reach of the normal..I wanna dress up person...these are the ones that I have a problem with...not the kind and gentle people here....

just a 2 doubloons worth from a vendor

darkRose

[hurricane]

Thanks to all, Hawkyns, CaptJackSparrow and DarkRose for yer opinions. All are good points and I appreciate you weighin' in on my thoughts, as well as others'.

I agree Hawkyns, that your pursuit is a valid one and sounds like it fills yer soul, as does performing for kiddies and audiences (CJS and meself). And DarkRose, I certainly must say that has proven true on more than one occasion, hardliners criticizing vendors for their wares.

It's warming to know that there are so many out there who share the passion of piracy in so many ways. Before the Internet and NQG, few new there were so many out there, in fact, I think the 1,000 rogue or lass just joined these postings.

I continue to learn from all the walks of life, the newbies, the re-enactors, those living history and the street folks who live off their wits, humor and charm.

This has been a great discussion about the value all our skills play in keeping piracy alive in the minds of our respective audiences. And a big huzzah! who all who revel in the lost arts of piracy in all its forms.

As long as some "contemporary piracy" re-enactor doesn't show up with an M-16 or Uzi and a grenades, I'm happy and honored to go on account with the best of ya.

[Hawkyns]

Hey darkRose- there's nothing to figure out about people like that, they're just plain RUDE! Without sutlers, most of us would be without most of our kit. (without sutlers, my 401K would be a lot healthier). People who make comments like that aloud are proving their own ignorance. I'll answer anyone who asks me but I won't offer unsolicited comments. And I won't answer anyone in the shop involved or loud enough for others to hear. Sure, some are better than others, some are top notch, and some are dreck. But if I want handsewn, I'll either contract with a sutler I know and pay the price, or do it myself. Machine sewn is a fact of life for off the peg clothing. I know a lot of tailors and sutlers who pride themselves in the fact that you have to inspect from a couple of inches to tell its machined. Machine sewn does not mean poor quality and people who make comments like that just prove that they don't know how the game is played.

Loudly professing opinions like that is the mark of an uneducated boor. Period.

Hawkyns

[darkRose]

Thankee sir...and I agree...as I said....it not be us here...it thems you mentioned...but they are there...we just have to put up with that sometimes....

I think this has been a great discussion and I thank you Hurricane..Hawkyns and all....makes this stuff "FUN"....

Now that bein said..Bring on the Rum and the Wenches....

darkRose

[moricktowain]

So here's the question, or actually questions.  Do the patrons of this pub consider themselves Faire Folk or re-enactors?  Do you change your clothing to match the period of the event or always wear the same thing? How important is the accuracy of your kit?  Do you participate in battles or are the cutlasses and pistols just for show?

I'm suprised I havn't posted anything on this thread. LOL

I consider myself mostly faire folk, with a slight dash of re-enactor.

My character, Morick Towain, is an interesting character[in many ways, some are not suitable for all persons reading, so I won't get in to those ways.] My character does not dress like the re-enactors would like me to dress. I normally wear wrap pants, a leather vest, a head wrap, and boots. If it's cold, I do tack on a long sleeve peasant shirt under the vest. If there's a situation where I'm working[setting up the camp], I tend to not wear the vest.

Weapon-wise, I normally carry a cap-fire pistol, with no swords[at present.] I've actually fought in my pirate garb, as a pirate, in Amtgard, which can be fun. [He's a barbarian who dresses and acts like a pirate. Try playing a bezerk pirate for an hour! LOL]

My character has been dubbed by some in the local SCA groups as "not period" or improperly dressed. I personally don't feel like wearing layers upon layers of clothing, when it's 85+ degrees outside.

Just my two cents worth.

Morick Towain, Captain of the Pirate Brethren of Texas

[Conner O'Dea]

Right there lies my problem with SCA. They love sticking that label on people who don't conform tightly to their guidelines. Your outfit sounds reasonably period. I also don't blame you for wanting to be cool. I have different shirts I wear for different weather conditions. Also what the SCA tends to forget is that Europe was noticibly cooler during the times we are portraying as now. I'm sure people of the period dressed similarily to you on hot days.

[swordsman]

Hello, Shipmates!

At risk of getting broadsided, I felt compelled to put my bits in, as well.

I'm a re-enactor at heart. I have been a member of groups that want us to wear period underwear, etc. The "Nazi" approach to doing historical interpretation does nothing but push participants away. Due to the shortage of some materials, we have to substitute some things for others. I must confess, I do wear insoles in my bucket boots. Hang me.

Although I do strive to be as historical acurate as possible, if I am doing a bonafied historical event, e.g. battle re-enactment, encampment, or somewhere people will want to get a good view of what life was like "back then". Although perfection is impossible, its the quest for perfection that separates the re-enactor from "performers".

I do love a good faire, though :-) If the event is just a glorified beer bash, or fencing competition...what-the-heck. We can lax a little.

We had one new fellow (God bless him), that appeared for a school presentation wearing blue jeans and chainmail. All I did was thank him over and over for coming an offer him some loaner stuff. :-)

For the Ole Folk (like me) that supports and educates those that would like to go farther in the quality of their impression, Blessed Be. For those that just like to dress up, and walk around. Blessed Be, as well. But you get out, only what you put into anything. Just a thought.

Sorry to speak so long. I'm Irish, and can't help it.

Always,

Howard

[Hawkyns]

AAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!! MY BRAIN HURTS!!!!!!!

Sorry, just had to do that. I find myself in a very odd position. I've been a member of the Society for 28 years. Royal households, peerage, alphabet soup, Pennsic staff, senior rapier marshal, the whole shootin' match. Of late, I have not been particularly active. First, I hate winter events- if I can't be outside and camping, what's the point? But primarily it's because I think they are way too lax in their standards. Here, though, I feel it is neccesary to defend the Society.

Look, it comes down to this: if you join a group, you play by their rules. Doesn't matter if it's a pirate singing group, Faire guild, re-enactment regiment, or the Society. Now, I'm the first to admit that Society rules are inconsistant and unevenly enforced, but they are there. Now what Captain Towain lists as garb sounds cool ( in both senses of the word), but by no means documentably period. I have been vocal (loudly so) on the SCA nautical list about Society standards and the lack thereof, as other people on this board can tell you. There is a cut-off date of 1600 that is part of the Governing Documents and that is their rule. This is part of the same situation that has caused problems when Golden Age pirates show up at Society events. It just ain't what they do.

As far as the heat issue is concerned, you are correct, Europe was in a mini-ice age for much of the Society's period. Europe is also mostly north of the US latitudes. Even today, they don't get the protracted heat that is common in the US. That, however, is no excuse. I do Elizabethan sailor, without any problems. Documentably period to what would have been warn by an English sailor in the Caribbean. If you want to play the game and you live in a high temperature area, you do one of three things: 1) suck it up and deal with it; 2) find a persona that has garb appropriate to hot weather; 3) wear what would have been appropriate to your persona in a hot weather environment. Any of these allow you to play without breaking the rules.

I have more than my share of problems with the Society. I think their garb standards are too lax, and their combat safety standards way too paranoid. As I say, I play less and less with them as time goes by. Matter of fact, Saturday is 12th Night, my wife is Head Lady in Waiting to the Queen of the East, and I'm not even bothering to go. I've found better and more interesting places to play. Fact remains, you can join the Society and work from within to change it, or find somewhere else to play. You can't just decide to do your own thing and flout their standards.

Sorry about the length of this and the tone, but it is a major candy coloured button with me. It is also difficult for me to defend a group that I believe has so many problems and that I have railled about so often. But they do have the rights to their standards. Now I NEED that bottle of Pussers.

Hawkyns

[Paisley]

Just remember these famous words I heard at S. Faire the last year I twas there,

"In costume, we are Gods and Goddesses, out of costume, we're just fat."

ahhhhh...too too funny!!!!

since i've been lurking on this post, i've got a few questions & thoughts...

i would love to learn to be historically-accurate.

problem- they don't offer classes at the local junior college! i've written to two groups (1 in md, 1 in fl) and have yet to get ANY RESPONSE! yes, i can read, but i get a heck of alot more info while actually being involved.

other problem - i'm a girl...not too many of us "real" pirates around, so where do we get our info?...besides...if i wanted to be completely historically accurate, i would have stopped showering & shavin bout a year ago. ewwww

so -my goal -

1 costume as close-to-real as possible.

another costume with a crazy pirate flaire.

and if i can get a few people interested in history/piracy...more power to me

*hands nigel back his soapbox*

[Conner O'Dea]

My apologies if I may have struck a nerve Hawkyns. I have no problem with most people in the SCA. I actually find most to be helpful and a wealth of information. My problem is with SCA members and nonmembers who like to sit around at local and criticize those who do not fit their idea of "period."

[Isabella]

I'm a rennie. I do faires, love faires, and enjoy them. But am always willing to dress up for other events. I do mold myself for the event I'm attending, I.E, wouldn't attend a Star Wars convention in Elizabethian Nobles. (I've seen it.) That's fantasy so I wear fantasy.

If I'm going to a Pirate fest it's pirate garb, a faire is pirate garb, or peasant garb. I allow my costume to show my personality. That's important. :) But the cut and colour are important to me also when it comes to garb. I like to blend into the crowd and look well defined. My husband thinks I'm a costume nazi, but he's enjoys being frufru with frills more than I do, so we have our own choices.

I do wear jewelry, necklace and wedding ring, which in some circles would be a no no. Clear nail polish I do wear.

I like being part of the history, and part of it is dressing up close to what is period, even if the rules are slightly bent.

['Salem Bob']

Well, I'll agree with you, Omega, that it is just as easy to do it right as it is to do it crazy. Easier, in most ways. I guess the things that tweak me are those that are obviously wrong- everything covered in skull and bones, f'r'instance. You'd see variations on the colours, sure, but on sword hilts, belts, pouches, etc.? That is not needed to identify as a pirate. The cutlass, headrag, tricorn, and open knee breeches are generally enough for that. Doing a more authentic impression is generally cheaper than paying the insane prices that the stores want for all that skull and crossbones merchandise. Me, I'd rather put my money into reliable, working weapons.

Too right you are Hawkyns,

I don't even reenact a pirate (American Privateer, F&I or Rev War, Royal Navy, or simply mid 18th century sailor as the venue calls for) Heresy, I know, but at a January gig at Strawberry Banke, we played sailors from the Bristol packet, and in normal sailors slops (including stockings and shoes ashore of course, and a 'cutlash', it being a town full of agitators and rebels in 1774), got labled a pirate by every child who walked through the tavern door. We then had the fun of explaining to them how we 'was honest sailors'. The crowd was perfectly happy seeing us eat, drink, and play cards, have an ongoing battle with the Methodist woman the next room over who had labled us 'limbs of Satan' for all and sundry to hear, and asking us questions as to what we were about, where we we from, a sailors life, ect

What I do not understand is the concept some seem to have that being authentic is automatically UN-fun, and that theater must totaly be divorced from reenactment, and authenticity from theater - never the twain can be spliced together. From perusing this web site, seeing e-bay auctions, and seeing the going price for obviously unauthentic "pirate" gear, I would say it were likely cheaper to portray an accurate pirate who was a normal crewman (barring a captain or officer attempting to pass themselves off as a "gentleman" ashore), than an over the top fantasy pirate. I believe I laid out less than $300 in total for a extremely accurate set of clothes, barring shoes.

I think both sides of the question could learn a lot and benefit from each other, if they would only let go of preconcieved notiong of the 'enemy' (fortunately, few seem to be adamant in their positions), and listen to what the other had to say.

[HarborMaster]

I'm familair with the code set down by Bartholemeu and Morgan !!! ("Hawkyns is rright about SCA")

I try to stick to the code mates., ("try to play by the rules people")

There more like guidelines than rules to natural order of things anyway .

("depending on the club your in if you are ?")

Course If your not a pirate., and yer not ....., then the code doesnt apply to ya.., (" Be Happy do your own deal *Enjoy*")

Therefore I dont have ta do nothing! (Barbosa-PotC 2003)

HarborMaster

[Katie Nameless]

For all the Rennys I've been to, if you have a tricorne hat, you're a pirate. Unless of course, you're in a British naval getup. Then....you're a British....navy....person-thingy.

True, it is good to be recognizable at a Renny if you want to be recognized as what you are. I can't truthfully say I've ever been to a re-enactment, though. There, I would think not being historically accurate is going to offend someone. If someone showed up to a serious re-enactment in a halloween costume, I'd want to run them through. Like not just pretend.

Pirates looked like crispy (for lack of a better word for 'extremely tanned') pesants. Not guys with standard issue striped shirts and eyepatches complete with parrot that says 8 classic pirate phrases. That's even irritating at a Renny.

Ok....Katie's done ranting now . So, the moral of the story is: Renny+Tricorne=PIRATE.

Thank you.

[HarborMaster]

So you are saying ., for example at the average Ren faire., a pirate can easily stroll through a Renn Mall or jump into the Ren pub for a grog., and feel o.k. about it for the most part., and possibley even find another pirate or two there? Cutlass's and maybe even a Versailles type coat? Or no probably get weird or un welcomed looks and comments? What about my heater (Flintlock) most knights didnt carry one ya know

I would like to attend., the local one to me this year the Washington "Gig Harbor" Renn Faire. would a pirate be out of place or acceptable in such a place.,

I just dont know if the pirate would be o.k.?..., Tall Ships in Seattle will be good for all., That one I know will be fine with my outfit. Please Advise

HarborMaster

[Isabella]

Well the same could be said about the head scarf too tho. Most pirates I did faire with wore cavalier style hats, or just head scarves. Historically tho, the only hat in 1550's that looked like a tri-corner hat was a philospher's hat. Kinda like a graduation hat, but diferent.

Tri-corners didn't connect to history till much later on, when the period of knickers came about in the 1700's. So I can see how someone can say "Rennie + Tri-Corner=Pirate", but I'd have to squint, prevent myself from becoming a garb nazi.

When historically did Tri-Corners happen? For most enactors of the 1700's it doesn't matter. But most enactors of the 1550's will say, It's 150 years too early.

Since pirates have been around since wood floated on water, how can we classify each historical "type" of pirate. Would a weathy pirate look like a dashing Lord of the Renaissance? Or a working man? Did pirates in the 1700's dress as Hollywood shows us? Frock coats, long boots and a hat.

So I guess I'm asking, "What defines a pirate, beyond the Tri-Corner hat?"

[Isabella]

Harbor Mastor,

There were "Sea Dogs" in the times of Elizabeth the 1st. Check out what Elizabethian garb looks like if you haven't enacted it before, and take what you have and add things to it. Look up on the web "Elizabethian Sea Dogs", for an "idea" of a pirate look for Elizabethians.

i'm not sure what you normally wear, so I can't comment yea or nay. But I'm happy to help if you pm me a photo or link to one.

Izzy

[HarborMaster]

just click right on my name., and you will see my profile...., there should be a photo there which should give you some idea

HarborMaster

[Isabella]

Harbor: I posted this thread

Elizabethian Sea Dogs

So that people can stay on the vein of the orginal thread. I found some good books. :)

Looking at your profile now.

Izzy

[HarborMaster]

Hmmmm the Elizabethian Sea Dogs search in Yahoo., characterizes., a little older pirate., perhaps I am lost in a no mans land?., almost colonial., sort of 1650 to 1750., and so ., truly not a pirate., just someone from the beginning of the 18th century, wanting to take your ship! ., and yer loot..., but historically not crewed to do it., thus leaving me alone., Marooned in time., to a solitary life of pilfering me guts out in pubs after a lowly strong armed robbery in some dark and dirty landlubbing street., say in New orleans?.., not really a pirate at all., no ship no crew..., nothin more than a petty criminal., askin fer time between loads on the Flintlock., slowly dyin' out to the law abiding colonialist afraid to stand up to the Kings army? later to be replaced by my own Grandchildren who'll have to do it for me...., Isabella .., somehow youve lowered my self esteem..., I will check this post in the morning...,to see where in time I am...., is there no faires for me...., A tall ship would pass me by?., Am I to stay home during a pirate fest..., because I dont fit in?., I am now depressed *sigh*..., I was born too late dammit!

HarborMaster

[Isabella]

Your the Missing Link of Pirates? *blinks*

[Isabella]

Nah, Go as you are, and have fun. :) Dont' worry about my anal retentive need for exactness. Enjoy yourself. :) Just consider not wearing your frock if you it's too warm. But if your on the water, it would be great. :)

Forget all I said, and go as you are. :)

[HarborMaster]

"go as you are"..., to a ren faire?..., or only a tall ships?

HarborMaster