Faire vs Re-enactment

[Nigel]

I wondered if anyone would get that. Thanks, Dreamie!

[Omega]

Theatre Vs Re-enactment.. must there be a choice????

I'm a thread-counting, hand-sewing, book-reading, research-crazy authenticity nazi - and proud of it.

I'm also a sawdust-in-the-veins dyed-in-the-wool theatre brat. Love performing. Heck, that's why I got into re-enactment in the first place - to combine my love of history with my love of performing.

If that's not everyone's cup of tea, then that's fine by me - it's a big ocean out there.

But in our group we try to be as accurate as possible AND as entertaining as possible.. and I think doing both is very possible - indeed we've proved it on many occassions!

We entertain kiddies, and adults, and we're obviously recoginisable as pirates to anyone who sees us - all of this while maintaining a high level of accuracy. I don't really see where the conflict is, to be honest, or why one thing would need to be sacrificed for the other.

The beautiful thing about re-enacting the Golden Age of Piracy is that, for the most part, what the general public think you ought to look like and what you actually are meant to look like are very, very close.. so where's the problem?

I have to admit I'm a little bewildered at the whole idea that you either have to be fun OR accurate... would that guy over there singing the pirate song be less fun if his shirt was linen? Or his hat wool, not acetate felt? Would he be less entertaining with leather soles on his shoes?? Would he be less fun if he were singing a funny song from the period??

No, no, and no.... that's my take on it, anyway....

[Conner O'Dea]

Omega, I agree with you that pirate reenacting is pretty easy. Sources are well documented and not very contradictory. The problem with accuracy, in my experience, comes more at renaissance feastivals. That is where accuracy of people's sources becomes more muddled. There are many sources that are contradictory. I found a source book that disputes half of what somegarb nazis told me was worn in the middle ages. My thinking will always be: have fun and look fairly accurate from ten feet away

[Hawkyns]

Well, I'll agree with you, Omega, that it is just as easy to do it right as it is to do it crazy. Easier, in most ways. I guess the things that tweak me are those that are obviously wrong- everything covered in skull and bones, f'r'instance. You'd see variations on the colours, sure, but on sword hilts, belts, pouches, etc.? That is not needed to identify as a pirate. The cutlass, headrag, tricorn, and open knee breeches are generally enough for that. Doing a more authentic impression is generally cheaper than paying the insane prices that the stores want for all that skull and crossbones merchandise. Me, I'd rather put my money into reliable, working weapons.

One point where this doesn't work so well, though, is when you get into the early stuff. My primary impression, as one of Drake's gunners, doesn't particularly indentify me as a seaman, unless you have a little knowledge. The thrum cap is the most identifiable, but most just ask me about the bowl of spaghetti on my head. Other than that, jerkin, breeches, and shirt aren't that different from anyone else of the period. The cutlass may be the most identifiable for the great masses. I suppose the accent doesn't help, either. I don't do the 'Aarrggh, Matey' bastardised West Country accent so beloved of pirates the world over. I use a Yorkshire accent and an earlier syntax and pronunciation.

But, as you say, it's a big ocean. Many people do expect the hollywood/fantasy impression. There are plenty of pirates out there to satisfy them. Me, I'll dress in linen, wool, and leather, carry a useable cutlass and working firearm, sing my period songs, and enjoy connecting with the real people whose heritage we celebrate.

Hawkyns

[Nigel]

I have to admit I'm a little bewildered at the whole idea that you either have to be fun OR accurate... would that guy over there singing the pirate song be less fun if his shirt was linen? Or his hat wool, not acetate felt? Would he be less entertaining with leather soles on his shoes?? Would he be less fun if he were singing a funny song from the period??

No, no, and no.... that's my take on it, anyway....

I think the more important question to ask is:

"Would that pirate be more entertainng if he were more historically accurate?"

[Rumba Rue]

I have to admit I'm a little bewildered at the whole idea that you either have to be fun OR accurate... would that guy over there singing the pirate song be less fun if his shirt was linen? Or his hat wool, not acetate felt? Would he be less entertaining with leather soles on his shoes?? Would he be less fun if he were singing a funny song from the period??

No, no, and no.... that's my take on it, anyway....

I think the more important question to ask is:

"Would that pirate be more entertainng if he were more historically accurate?"

Well that depends, are ye handin' out candy with the tip o' yer sword, cuz ye been drinkin' so's there's acohol on yer breath, or are ye handin' out swigs o' rum cuz there's acohol in yer mug?

Actually, I don't think the public really cares one way or the other whether yer costume be historically correct or blinding hot pink. What they see is a fantasy to them, and that's what they enjoy.

Just remember these famous words I heard at S. Faire the last year I twas there,

"In costume, we are Gods and Goddesses, out of costume, we're just fat." :)

RumbaRue

**The bigger my eyes, the greater my want**

[hurricane]

I must say that there's no shortage of polarity in this posting. In the end, let's be clear about one thing - we're not really in the Golden Age of Piracy and none of us are actually committing acts of piracy these days, lest you be in Malaysia with an M-16 on your shoulder.

At PiP there were all walks of life - those who brought to life the essence of piracy in it's most pure portrayal and there were entertainer-pirates who worked the crowd, played to the kiddies and hit on the women and men who they belonged to. Everyone got along fine and respected each other's unique talents. Who cares if you're accurate or not - the end result is were you entertaining and did you create a little relief in someone's life for that brief moment?

As for Rennies, I agree that some of them are just a little over the top and way too serious about it. And I don't care if you're my kid's teacher one day and a noble the next, what sicko would pertend they don't know their own student - do you know what that does to a little kid who doesn't understand the importance of thread counts? :)

I sympathize with Hawkyns about doing re-enactment in a street theater environment. The very nature of PiP requires a lot of quick thinking when interacting with touristas who stumble upon you as a pirate - it's not easy to stay true to period and interact with ordinary folk who don't necessarily know why you're all dressed up. That's really the venue for improvisation, something that is almost diametrically opposed to re-enactment.

Our group is strictly improv - that's the fun of piracy for us. It's working the crowd and making people smile, be taken aback, skirt the bounds of appropriateness, engane in an inpromptu sword fight with a five year old and lose, visit retirement homes, do readings of pirate tales at libraries - the breadth of experiences that enrich the lives of those we come in contact with, and in doing so, enriches our own lives and provides us with the "E Ticket" (for those old salts who remember those at Disneyland) to an event or appearance.

The important thing (Nigel, thanks for pointing this out) is that regardless of your act - authentic, street theater, improv or what - did the audience "get it"? In the end, if the audience walks away confused, upset, disengaged, then the performance was for naught. One has to ultimately play to the audience and deliver upon their expectation, which is most often to interact with a pirate or wench for ever how brief a moment and alter the routineness of their life in the process. For most civilians, coming into contact with a pirate is magic, a fantasy. And that's ultimately what we as "entertainment" must deliver upon.

< Steps off his soapbox, heads for the bar... >

[Nigel]

Well said, Captain!

[Nigel checks soap box to see if it actually contains any soap, as he is badly in need of a bath...]

[Hawkyns]

OK, then- next level of 'the question'. Who are we doing this for? Saw on a post something about 'don't play to the pirates', don't see it now. I make no apologies, I'm doing this for me. If it's just me and my guncrews out there, whether on ship or on land, and we're living the life, firing the guns, enjoying swordplay amongst ourselves, and swillin' the rum and singin' the songs around the fire of an evening, then we're having a good time. If there are no public within 100 miles, that's OK. If the public is there and sees what we do, asks a few questions, and gets educated along the way, that's OK too, but it's not our purpose. So for us, the pirates are the ones we do play to.

Just to clarify things a bit, lest people get the impression that I'm a crotchety old bugger with no sense of humour. Understand that my attitudes apply to me and to those who follow me volountarily. I do not expect anyone to follow my ideas unless they are doing a specific gig with me that has specific rules. My good wife/wench/doxy/matross has several outfits that she wears, some authentic, some not. Matter of fact, I'm working on a copy of the pirate outfit from Clyde Caldwell's 'Treasure Chest, a fantasy art print from about 1992 for her. Not something that could be worn in a public venue, unfortunately (we need more pirate gigs without the kids, where we can act out a bit more of what appears elsewhere on these boards. Can we book a room in Tortuga for a few nights? )

Hawkyns

[darkRose]

Interesting thing their Hawkyns....There are several Faires across the country that have Adults Only weekends....or days...and the faire that I am planning though a family faire will have one venue that will be adults only.

So why couldn't there be an adults only Festival?.....and them Wenches and Rogues could wear or not wear what they want....by the way....there was a small weekend festival in Michigan this year that just about fit the bill ...it was called "Whipstock"..

darkRose

[Matty Bottles]

I think'll weigh in now, mateys.

I'd ruther not interact wif kids, either. As perverse as it may sound, part of pyracy that appeals to me is the villainy. I'm never going to rape, murder, pillage and plunder, but it sure is fun to pretend ye do. And I sure wouldn't feel comfortable describing my criminal acts to a child. Now, that isn't to say I never will interact wif kids, or that I don't like to on occasion, but I dress as a pirate for me own kicks.

I would love to have an historically accurate get-up, but I'm just starting, so I am perfectly content to fake what I can't afford. I'll replace my kit at whatever pace I can. And if I want a silk brocade coat for more formal pirate events, well, then I'm going to the upholsterers and getting non-historical fabrics. This is just a hobby (at least for me.)

Plus, I don't know where to find historically accurate thread counts, or how some one would accurately pleat the skirt of a 1780's coat...there's only so much one can learn from books. I need HELPFUL INSTRUCTION more than NITPICKY CRITICISM.

Acctually, it might be fun to organize a festival...an adults only festivals with debauchery at night, and seminars on historical costuming during the day....

[Black Deacon]

I've been in groups that get "Thread count" picky. If you can afford and enjoy that. Great, go for it. Like I stated before. I stay true to fabric type (cottons, wools, linens, etc.) and colors. Period patterns etc and that takes care of most of then nit picks.

[Matty Bottles]

Well, I have some period patterns (that I actually found on this site - thanks, mateys) but there's more than just what you can see on paper. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-accurate. In fact, I fully intent to EVENTUALLY be as fully accurate as I can, if for the reason alone that I want to fit in as many pirate sub cultures as I can. But if I have to wear cotton undergarments because I don't do so well with wool on my bare skin, I'll wear the cotton. But I would love to be fully accurate. Right now I'm not. And some of the sources are a bit too obscure for me to locate. Some places I don't even know where to start.

[Matty Bottles]

And what the hell happend to my avatar?

[Matty Bottles]

In any case, I don't mean to sound combatative or belligerent. And if I do, I apologize. This is a topic many people take passionately, and I don't intend to debase or degrade ANY of the great people I've met on this post, or criticize any of the choices they make in service of the Jolly Roger.

[Hawkyns]

Ya know, the whole thread count theory is complete cr*p. I've seen original fabrics from multiple periods and they vary from 20-5 threads per inch and more and they're all correct! Basic rule of thumb, the more money you had, the finer the material you could afford. The only time this comes into play is if you are doing a specific regiment with a government warrant that specifies the cloth and thread count. For the rest of us, ya wore what ya could get and what ya could afford. Like Deacon said, as long as it's the right fiber, the thread count is not that important

Linen can be anywhere from lawn, or very fine almost see-through, to sailcloth, to even coarser.

Wool can also be from fine, to coating type wool, to very coarse and hairy like saddle blankets. Most wool should also be fulled and at least somewhat felted so that it is difficult to see the weave. 16-18th c wool was so well fulled that most garments did not need hemming, but were left with raw edges that did not ravel. Duffel is probably one of the best current examples of this.

Cotton can be very fine like Egyptian or Indian cotton, to coarser like Osnaburg.

And leather has lots of variations. Average garment was in the 2-4oz range and could be cow, pig, lamb, sheep, deer, elk or ox. Pig tends to be very stiff and dry, lamb is very soft but can tear easily, elk wears forever but can be a bit thick for garments. My preference for garment leather is mule deer. Thick enough for body, heavy enough to wear, but supple enough to move easily.

Hawkyns

[Lady Bassett]

Yeah, what happened to your avatar, Jack???

[Nigel]

"What are your qualifications?"

"Rape, muder, arson, and rape."

"You said rape twice."

"I like rape."

[Lady Bassett]

Nigel, I'm going to let the other women in the Pub handle that one.

[Red Maria]

Nigel there where pirates in Blazing Saddles?

[Nigel]

Actually, in the final fight scene, I think there mighta been....

Heck, there were Nazis in the Western scenes.

[Red Maria]

And bikers too! I was just trying to remember the pirates. Heck! I forgot there were pirates in Lord of the Rings till I saw Return of the King!

I need to reread those books.

[Nigel]

I'm in the middle of ROTK now.

Great books.

Really, pirates?

[Nigel]

DUH! Oh Yeah! The fleet!

I just read that passage!!!

ha ha ha!

Pirate...short term memory....

lol

[hurricane]

I think everyone's a little too focused on the "thread count" issue. It's meant more as a catch-all term for those who think they're superior to those who are more Hollywood in style - historically, many re-enactors look down on those who represent the "aura of piracy" -- those who live by their spur of the moment wits rather than their developed character. I think it's fine if someone wants to "play to the pirates" - but that's a more narrowly defined activity and isn't considered enterainment, except to those partaking in it. I don't care if you play to the pirates and focus on living a pirate life, but the people who plunk down bucks to go to a faire or any other event expect to see a show, they want to be entertained. They don't want to see a bunch of stiffs milling about looking historic, and faires are filled with these types of "performers".

If re-enacting is the be all, do all, then why is Williamsburg dying on the vine financially as well as other historical venues? It's filled with re-enactors on a grand scale teaching and living history. The experts contend it's because there is not enough entertainment there to compete with the likes of a Disneyland.

I think it's fine to be a re-enactor or a Hollywood style pirate. But I think all strata of pirates can lose sight that without an audience, there is no performance. At that point one might as well hang out in their garage and perform for friends and family. History is filled with artists, entertainers and venues that have never found a popular audience. And that's a true tragedy, no matter what the path you choose to take. No audience, no performance, no point.

And I'm amazed that a bunch of pirates are scared of little kids. Makes me wanna send my five year old Cabin Boy out to spook you at the next event. :)

Now, everyone aim your daggers, cutlasses and flintlocks at me in unison.