Faire vs Re-enactment

[darkRose]

Go as you are wherever you go...and there you are..as you are...so go there...everywhere...as you are........huh?......more rum please...

Rogue's Pierre

aka darkRose

[Rumba Rue]

Pirates looked like crispy (for lack of a better word for 'extremely tanned') pesants. Not guys with standard issue striped shirts and eyepatches complete with parrot that says 8 classic pirate phrases. That's even irritating at a Renny.

'Cuse me, but I'm damn proud o' me little parrot saying 'those eight phrases' ye speak of! It's taken a bit o' time fer him ta learn those. Bet ye couldn't say those at two years o' age! (that's how old me parrot be)

In any case, most o' the pirates ye see, are the 'storybook' kind, simply cuz if'n we just dressed like the plain scurvy types we is, then nobody would have a friggin' clue as ta what we were! Besides them frock coats/Capt.coats, and other fancy wear, attract o' lot o' attention which we just love! Ah yes one o' them Kodac moments, where we fight our way ta have our picture taken.

Besides if'n ye hold yer empty mug out, someone's bound ta fill it with rum or even better money! Works fer me!

Rumba Rue

**The best part of valor is descretion**

[Conner O'Dea]

Go as you are wherever you go...and there you are..as you are...so go there...everywhere...as you are........huh?......more rum please...

Rogue's Pierre

aka darkRose

I'll have whatever he's having.

My advice is to just look like a pirate to a bystander 10 feet away. Do that an you'll have no problems.

[Scarlet Jenny]

My advice is to just look like a pirate to a bystander 10 feet away. Do that an you'll have no problems.

Aye, I concur!

[HarborMaster]

I will do the best I can., and if I get flack., I will try to consider what ever source it is coming from as politely as i can., I really did not use refrence material going into this., basically.,Jumped into it., without much knowledge., thinking about what things appealed to me., not very logical. Some critics., perhaps I will learn from., others perhaps wont matter?..., If I can have fun., pass out treasure and play with kids and get my wife to go in her winch outfit then I am gonna be happy just the same

The big fluffy sleeved shirts are a must., I have always relished the thought of some Bucket top boots., so I bought the best I could afford., and for a tricorn., I have been wearing a Civil War cap daily for 20 years at work., Leather., so again Leather on the tricorn., The Frock., simple in frills., but big on cuffs and gore in the tail., the., sashes are a bit new and loud in color., The leather baldric and boarding cutlass made me happy by there appearance., correct or not., I guess I did it for me. I have purchased two custom frocks (the other a crushed blue velvet) 4 pants ., 2 white shirts a red., a dk blue., many accessories.., If it doesnt work well at a faire...,

I know it will work well after I sell the rooter service and retire at the beach in Negros Oriental ,Philippines., as I can come an go as I please on our boat., and freak out all the locals at the public markets., till there used to me...., who knows..., perhaps after I get a regular route of a few stops., between Negros., Cebu., and Siquijor., the locals may take on a pirate look of there own, might start a trend *Wicked-Wicked-Grin* That dream is already working itself out., just hope I am not too old a pirate to get off my own beach.., I hate the thought of watching others sail by from our marina

HarborMaster :)

[Matty Bottles]

Well, I've started two kits. One is luxurious, decadent and thoroughly synthetic. The other is much simpler, and all natural. The wool I have for my coat looks pretty nice, actually. It's not felted, and the thread count is very thick, but it looks like something that could've been woven on a loom. When I cut out all the parts for my frock I discovered that I don't have enough, though, so I'm trying to find a similarly colored, hundred-percent wool fabric of a similar weight to flesh out the skirt, but I've had no luck.

The synthetic is a black and gold and red chinese dragon print brocade that was so loud and gaudy I could't resist. It'll look grand as the lining and waistcoat for a red velvet frock. The velvet will also be synthetic. I know not everyone can afford two rigs, but my boots, slops, shirts, sashes and striped skivies will pull double duty for both outfits. I really can't afford two outfits, either, on what I make, so I'm assembling my kits piece by piece.

I also plan on trying to get into treking, and so I expect my equipment will pull double duty there, as well.

[Hawkyns]

.

Tri-corners didn't connect to history till much later on, when the period of knickers came about in the 1700's. So I can see how someone can say "Rennie + Tri-Corner=Pirate", but I'd have to squint, prevent myself from becoming a garb nazi.

So I guess I'm asking, "What defines a pirate, beyond the Tri-Corner hat?"

Well, you're right about the tricorne, it shows up around the end of the17th C and then hangs around until about 1800. Breeches, however, (I assume that's what you mean by knickers) appear in about 1580 and are generally referred to as 'venetians'. The go through a few changes, mostly in how baggy they are, but in length are virtually unchanged until 1800. Sailors wore slops, a baggier, slightly longer version, not tied at the knee, and these again are good from Elizabethan times on.

I suppose most of this depends on the Faire, and how it is billed. I would feel very funny wearing a 1720's coat and tricorne to an Elizabethan faire. Some faires are Tudor, some even earlier. If nothing is specified, I generally take my cue from who the King or Queen is supposed to be and dress according to that time period.

Harbourmaster- I am of two minds about the boots. They are certainly period from Elizabethan times on. Problem is, they are cavalry boots. The have a stacked heel for the stirrup and the high barrel is supposed to protect your leg from rubbing on the horse. I'd really hate to be on a wet pitching deck in those. They may well have been worn on shore. I am of the opinion, though, that there may be a confusion between those and the sea boot, which shows up at the end of the 19th century. This is more akin to a modern fireman's boot, low heel, rubber sole, and a shorter barrel, to just about the knee. I think artists may have seen seaboots, and drawn what they thought was a period equivalent, and that became a staple of art and literature in the early 20th century. There are some Elizabethan variations that are low heeled and may have been worn by Drake and such people, but beyond that, I have my doubts. Your mileage may vary.

Hawkyns

[HarborMaster]

Hawkyns.., I have read alot of the posts in here., and to me as an authority on whats correct ., whats questionable., and whats not., and in a historical context., I must say I appreciate your cander and your wisdom., I have learned from the posts you have made and some others., I do thank you and hope you do not mind a question or two from me., in a pm .,or what have ya from time to time., so I can get a better indication of what I am doing before I do it., Experience in something cannot be bought., your efforts to the board I believe are a service to everyone here.

Royaliste ., and a few others (cant remember everyone off the top o me head) have also been informing to read as well., I am grateful to have found your pirate's forum.

as for the boots., I had no knowledge till what I m reading now., "just liked them"., I did however order to the knee and a low heal., Champion boots lets you fully customize., if you do not., they send them out with a 2" cuban heal..., I ordered mine with a 1 1/4 (shortest they had) wrestlers heal., just because I dont feel comfortable in anything tall.

Bloody Jack Madd., yea I cannot do 2 full blown kits at the same time either ., so I pieced my pieces out to seamstress's as I go too.

I must admit folks., I did not go authentic., and many people making my garb fought me on it. I won cause I paid the bill. And I must say I am thrilled with what I have recieved.

For example., I found some blue and white striped "TEFLON" coated material and had a pair of pants made from it., go ahead Laugh.., see if I care.., With a blousey shirt and dive slippers and a sash., fish blood on the boat wont stain these., and I can dive into the water., sit on a concrete sea wall., whatever., these are light and BUFFED. ., they wont rip .,tear., or snag. my Black coat is made of the same poly cotton blend as a pair of dickies., Tough., NO-Rip No fading., No-Dry cleaning Wash and wear., tropical sun., wet dry., long life kick butt Black Pirate Frock..... (hard to find a good dry cleaner in the poverty stricken philippines)..

So you see I cheated., but I did it for durability so this stuff can take daily use for several years...,Some of this stuff., costs alot and it can add up quickly!!!

truly., High Diddley Dee its the Pirates Life fer me..., I got too much into this stuff ., to let it go., and start over., I gotta live with it now. But I think its going to really last.

The Politically Incorrect and Controversial "HarborMaster"

[hurricane]

I must say that the words "rules" and "pirates" seem categorically opposite to one another, particularly rules created by those who would be considered landlubbers, like those sponsoring faires.

Every group I've been involved with over the years was destroyed by two things: rules and those that enforce them (i.e., politics).

Our group has absolutely no rules, no meetings, no hierarchy, except when the captain is in charge of a voyage. We've learned the hard lessons from the past. We even take off the peace-ties whenever we do go faire-ing... What impudent rogues and wenches are we! java script:emoticon(' ')

[Hawkyns]

Habourmaster- this is not directed at you, or at anyone else who wears the buckettop boots, it is offered merely for information.

I went back to the woodcuts from Johnson's 'General History'. In the copy that I have, not one of the pirates shown is wearing boots. I went through as many other primary sources as I have. To this point, I have not found a contemporary illustration of such attire on a sailor or captain in the 'Golden Age'. Drake and Raleigh wear the early style boots, but Frobisher does not. And I've found no maritime illus of the boot after 1600.

I sometimes wear the earlier pattern high boot when I'm doing Elizabethan. Mine are modified engineer boots (no, I haven't forgotten the photos, Cap'n William, I haven't started the new boots yet) . For 1700's, I wear straight lasted shoes with buckles from Fugawee, purchased from Smoke and Fire.

This is far from definitive, just on an hour's quick and dirty research. But it is certainly a good indicator. As has been said many times, there is room for all on this voyage. But we should know whether what we do is historic or fantasy.

Hawkyns

[darkRose]

Mr.Hawkins and all....

No input into this except for this....it makes me happy to know all the people here....that we can share this information and not judge each other as in other places....

And to have the knowledgeable people that are here...

I have said before and will say again...this is a true community -a family if you will- and I am proud to be part of it.

DarkRose

aka Rogue's Pierre

[HarborMaster]

This is cool ..., I am on a learning curve., which is exactly what I was hoping for. I am happy with my attire however to understand what and when is interesting and can help to make adjustments as well. I cant give up the tricorn., for the Barbosa type hat .., however colonial it may be. I think other than my boots ., I am more colonial dressed?... On the fire power side of things.., where does the flint, dog.,and wheel lock come in ?., and in a 1700-1790 ? outfit what should I really be looking for?...,I am on a waiting list for the loyalist 1763-66 French pistol. For my outfit would that be more fitting.., or is there something., more suited?., what of this Queen Anne pistola?

HarborMaster

[Isabella]

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Isabella:  Tri-corners didn't connect to history till much later on, when the period of knickers came about in the 1700's.  So I can see how someone can say "Rennie + Tri-Corner=Pirate", but I'd have to squint, prevent myself from becoming a garb nazi.

So I guess I'm asking, "What defines a pirate, beyond the Tri-Corner hat?"

Well, you're right about the tricorne, it shows up around the end of the17th C and then hangs around until about 1800.  Breeches, however, (I assume that's what you mean by knickers) appear in about 1580 and are generally referred to as 'venetians'.  The go through a few changes, mostly in how baggy they are, but in length are virtually unchanged until 1800.  Sailors wore slops, a baggier, slightly longer version, not tied at the knee, and these again are good from Elizabethan times on.

I suppose most of this depends on the Faire, and how it is billed.  I would feel very funny wearing a 1720's coat and tricorne to an Elizabethan faire.  Some faires are Tudor, some even earlier.  If nothing is specified, I generally take my cue from who the King or Queen is supposed to be and dress according to that time period.

Exactly. Our faire in CA was 1540 to 1580 depending on class, and so on. They did it to allow a "mature" but still beautiful Elizabeth ruling.

Thank you I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that also, about the tri corner hat, Hawkyns. I've seen folks come late in Mustateer costumes, and others as 1720's pirates and feel out of sorts. But we always tried to make them welcome. That was the joy of it. :)

Yes, Breeches/Knickers/venisians. You understood me! Oh good! It's like TOmato and ToMAto, from East to West or faire to faire on that one.

Harbormaster, I would say you are a mix of Elizabethian and Colonial with the look of Colonial. Like Hawkyn's said, maybe try a different idea like a doublet, and hat. But yes, I can see his thoughts on your boots. I would be worried about wet planks too. SCA Boots does nice boots no heel for inexpensive. Never can have too many boots.

Hawkyns what say you to the Pirates that wear Caviliar hats? I'm curious on that. I'm looking for a hat, and I like those, but I don't want to look funny. I considered hatless as a woman, but the sun will do a number on my skin so a hat is in order.

Izzy

[Conner O'Dea]

I am very greatful for all of the input I've recieved just from reading. I did much the same as the HarborMaster. Jumped in and bought what looked good and was affordable to me in college. My character is not a pirate but more of a Elizebethan Irishman looking for mercenary work. I know I need a better blade for the role but finances have put that on hold. I'm glad to know my knickers or whatever they are called are period. I know the knee high Minnetonka moccasins are not once you get inside 10 feet but again the almighty dollar played a role there. I am curious if the hat you see in my avatar is period or not.

[Rumba Rue]

Conner, yer hat be fine, since ye are an Irishman.

And fer the rest o' ye, don't werry 'bout material types, ye use what ye can use, so's long as the idea comes across.

I have ta admit the material I'm usin' fer me frock coat isn't real tapestry stuff (I couldn't afford such pleasures), and is a much cheaper stuff with a rubberized backing. I'm usin' two layers o' cotton linin' fer it. Pretty sure it'll keep me warm on them 100 degree faires I be doin'. LOL!

Ah, but it be fer more than just pirate wear anyway.

Rumba Rue

**The means by which we live have outdistanced the ends for which we live**~ Martin Luther King :)

[Isabella]

Conner, if yer needin' more imput on Irishmen garb, I played Irish characters on Faire mostly. :) Feel free to pick my brain.

Izzy

[Hawkyns]

[Hawkyns what say you to the Pirates that wear Caviliar hats? I'm curious on that. I'm looking for a hat, and I like those, but I don't want to look funny. I considered hatless as a woman, but the sun will do a number on my skin so a hat is in order.

Izzy

The cavalier hat is a regular broadbrimmed hat turned up on one side. The origin seems to be from the musketeers who turned up one side of the brim so it wouldn't get knocked of when you do musket drill. Most drills that was the left side turned up, but there are a few drills that reverse that. the brim left down shielded your eye from the pan flash.

They tend to be 1600 to 1650 or so, which is where they get their connection with the Cavaliers, or Royalist Soldiers of the English Civil War. By later in the century, the brim has narrowed enough so that it no longer needs to be turned up on the side, but the fashion became to turn up the front brim. (Remember Trotter in CutThroat Island?)

For some period illustrations of the cavalier hat, see if you can find the illustrations for Jacob de Gheyn's 'The Excersize of Armes', published 1607.

Hawkyns

['Salem Bob']

.

Hawkyns what say you to the Pirates that wear Caviliar hats? I'm curious on that. I'm looking for a hat, and I like those, but I don't want to look funny. I considered hatless as a woman, but the sun will do a number on my skin so a hat is in order.

Izzy

Ahoy Aloft and Alow,

Not Hawkyns, but to pipe up here, a hat with a large brim interferes with what you have to do to work the ship. If you are talking Elizabethan, the 'cavalier' hat is right out anyhow, and your Frobishers and the like would be wearing those awkward looking affairs between a tophat and a sugarloaf for a formal hat. Only the captain or another ships officer would be dressed so finely.

People who actually are more than mere passengers aboard the ship (which ought be the whole crew), would be wearing something less cumbersome, that they would not be ruined in the environment of tar, salt water, and the like. Monmouth hats, stocking caps, thrum caps, 'muffin hat' berets and the like would be what a sailor would be wearing, they would not be weaing what a pack of 'farmers' or horsemen would be wearing. The Thrum cap in particular is pointed out in Elizabethan literature as the mark of a mariner. I suspect that a ships officer (in England, where they were actual seamen at any rate, unlike the lubbers Spaniard put in charge of their ships) would be wearing much what the rest of the crew was wearing at sea, only putting their more formal togs on for going ashore (as did all sailors), or for a formal occassion in the great cabin.

[Spitfire]

Found an interesting site showing clothing through paintings of the different periods. May help some solidify what was proper in any given period. Not comprehensive but a good overview by a professor in fashion history I believe.

http://employees.oneonta.edu/angellkg/LBAROQUE.HTML

[Isabella]

I had throught the Cavilier was "too late" in time. I see them alot at my old faire. :) Had to ask.

[HarborMaster]

Spitfire.., The link is very much appreciated., I was able to see the boots were used in the Early Baroque 1600 thru 1650 ., so they were around., perhaps for cavalry., but they were around., meaning a person could feel land (Jungle hopping) excursions they could be good..,

Late Baroque 1650 thru 1700 introduced the tricorn as well as Petticoat breeches as well as Large Cuffed Frocks.

The Rococo period 1700 thru 1775 .., actually had about the same coat and vest., however with a reduced cuff size.

The Revolution period spanning from 1775 thru 1795 Towards the 1795 part of this ...,really was the ending of such frocks.,hats.,vests and even pants in history.

So I think Historically ., my out fit., as with what I think many others are here., Frocks-Tricorns-Bucket-Boots., otherwise known as the "HollyWood-Pirate" tho not probable..., was in fact possible...,

After all I may in fact have a place in time., tho no faire supports me., I have the option of attending the far and few Pirate Festivals or Tall Ships events., or wearing it for Halloween ., ThanksGiving (colonial appeal) Perhaps a New Years Party., 4th of July.., and or any other time., I need to aquiest to someones request.

I am probably not welcomed at a ren faire.,therefore will not go (Altho I looked at the clothing for that too., HAHAHAHAHA ., A Doublet., look like some POOFED UP Shorty bloomers below a jerkins.., then tights., thats right TIGHTS..,*Smiling*..., uhhhhh No !!!! I can not say this enough HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!! "GAWD DAMN !!! GAWD DAMN!!! Whoooooooo-Yea !!!! Ha Ha ~~~~ Let me say this again..., HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!

Whoooo What a RUSH!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA Ahhhhhhhh., *sigh*

ahhhhhh I think I will stick to being Late Baroque - Early Rococo period ...,And Retain my dignity., Retire in the Philippines., Float my own boat., and make my own rules., No Ren Faires there., No Rules., F R E E D O M .., yea..,7107 Islands of it., ...., I dont know about the rest of you., but 7107 Islands to retire in., gets my pirate butt motivated to add to my "Phlip Phund" as I call it each month...,Savvy?

Pretty weird eh?

I wish The Pirates had their following as big and broad based at the SCA ., as in more events..,I Really enjoy the costume., and the commeraderie., of the people.,as well as the wonderful kits (outfits) ..., they is just so few in the North-West.., Bummer (

HarborMaster

[Isabella]

You'd be welcome at Ren Faires. Folks aren't going to be disgruntled if you wear what you own. Heck you might meet other enthusists that do Revolutionary War eneactment and Civil War.

It's funny you bring that up, I considered after seeing how many enthusists there are for pirates creating a society (if you could call it that) for enthusists. This was of course before I found Pyracy.com and all it's fine crew. This is what I had in mind, and since most of us are across the country and some in other countries.

I belong to a Guild for Wenches, but am inactive, because our faire isn't active in the guild. We're like a grey zone. We're not sure if it's the management not wanting us, or what. They have a privateers guild, which some here belong to, but I always wanted something I could call me own, with my own rules, ideas and imput of a wide margin of folks.

[Isabella]

If your savvy for the Philippines, I have family there. They'll feed ya and treat you nice. :)

[HarborMaster]

Well., now that you bring that up.,?., starting one of your own., if you were to get people into building a "Society For the Unwanted" (us) an SFU foundation .,if you will hehe. I would love to Join., imagine for a minute all around the country ., shoot a membership., I bet alot of us would be into it!., Myself., on a personal note., imagine retiring and going belly up before your time?., Nasty eh?., especially in a 3rd world country!., I have quite a bit going in the Phils., however I am not ready yet. There is much to do here in the $$ about 5 more years.., However we hoped to sponsor a little local thing perhaps twice a year. As we will wear our "Kits " daily.,perhaps a little altered for our way of life aka "dive slippers" while on the (dot-Com) our boat. But to get locals out for a playtime at our bar and marina. We are hoping to have alot of fun., It will not be a money thing as there is none there., thats from a differant source.., the pirate thing we hope will become an in-expensive way to get locals to enjoy our bar an marina..., It will have a Pirate Theme.,Large Anchors., I do have a cannon tho it is only 39 inches ., it makes a huracious boom..

"As you know Isabella Anchors and Cannons make Pirates feel well defended" !

When i grow up I do wanna be a pirate.

HarborMaster

[Isabella]

Always happy for input. :)

I would love to have a place on the beach in Panagasian, a resort. They have beautiful places there. I saw one selling for 200,000 on ebay. Amazing place. too rich for my blood but you understand. :)

I just dream of visiting right now. :) Helping my family there. My grandfather left in the 30's and only was able to see where he was born once before he died. It's my hope to see where he is from and where he lived. :)

Sending a PM your way.

Izzy

"Parrots give Pirates Courage!"