Shoe question.

[Red-Handed Jill]

Now if I could only find them in my size... I've looked everywhere online, but the ones that would work come in men's sizes. The smallest one's I've found are about 1-1/2 sizes too big. Grrrr!

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Have you tried looking in Army/Navy surplus stores in your area? That way you get to try them on before you buy. Our local pawn shop/surplus dealer has a good supply here.

[Matty Bottles]

Also, there a lot of styles of ladies' shoes that already suggest or mimic the styles of men's shoes from the 18th century, so maybe you could find something to use with even less cutting that a desert boot.

[Zephaniah W Nash]

I'm looking now for a pair of shoes/boots that can be converted -- from the link posted earlier, it looks like there are several different types of boots or shoes that can be used. It really looks like an old pair of roper-style boots wouldn't be bad at all.

I've got the same concern Jill has -- not falling when waving a sword about. Plus that $100-$150 issue, it wouldn't hurt me to wait a bit to spend that money.

I'm still planning on getting the recreations, but hopefully something converted will hold me for a bit. Now, just gotta find the boots to convert. Spent a half-day looking about locally with no real luck -- it may give me an excuse to drive back into the big city iffen the military surplus/hunting store doesn't have anything to suit...

[blackjohn]

When making a decision about period shoes and going with tied or buckled, where is the more common breakover point regarding dates...? In other words, when did buckles become more common than ties on shoes?

Just the other day I was reading a Colonial archaeology text that stated no shoe buckles dated prior to 1700 have been found at any Colonial site. Surprised me, but that's what the expert had to say.

[Matty Bottles]

Hmmm. I can't remember if any were mentioned aboard the Belle, but I am surprised to hear that, too. Blackjohn, you've read that thesis about the Belle, haven't you? Do you remember them mentioning buckles?

[blackjohn]

I don't remember shoe buckles being mentioned, and through the haze that is my mind's eye I see a pic of a shoe from La Belle with ties.

Oh, and that book I mentioned, printed in 1969. Some may have been found since, but even still, I think the point remains.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Hmmm... that is interesting.

But remember that there really isn't a "La Belle" shoe. There are many

shoes and shoe fragments recovered at that site, which is from 1684.

If you download the pdf from http://nautarch.tamu.edu/anth/abstracts/randolph.htm

and skip to page 256 you have a pretty decent drawing of both a tied and buckled shoe (stud chape).

The next 30 pages or so has diagrams and pictures of the recovered shoes, but the real gem for the sake of this thread is the tables starting at 270.

For the 6 shoes that they record the fastening type, Buckles outnumber ties 4 to 2, or twice as many shoes are buckled as tied. And that is 1684. I have not read through the file enough to see if there were buckles found, but it is interesting that the archaeologist have even been able to tell you what kind of buckle went into the shoe

page 289

The chape hole in the left quarter displays use wear that indicates the employment of an anchor chape buckle

Which makes one think, if they had the shoes, why not the buckle.

GOF

[Matty Bottles]

That's what I thought. I seem to remember them discussing buckles, particularly becayse they implied that they fastened on the side, and not in the middle, of the arch, but I could be confusing my sources.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Having more time to digest the Belle shoe analysis, I thought this was interesting too...

Having reviewed trends in shoe fashion from 1650 to 1700, it is now possible to describe the footwear commonly worn during the time of La Salle, around 1680.  The typical footwear worn by men was a low cut open sided latchet shoe.  Ti maintained a square toe, short tongue and a one-inch heel; the color was middle brown and was fashioned completely from cattle hide.  It was secured by means of chape buckle.

Cue the picture of Black Johns shoe.....

A majority of the shoes recovered from the Belle seem to be of low quality and probably belonged to the lower classes.

GoF

[Zephaniah W Nash]

Could the lack of buckles found be something like recycling...?

Metal would have been relatively scarce -- buckles possibly collected to sell or re-work into other items.

I've also found a couple of $5 pairs of shoes at Goodwill that should serve for conversion, will share some pics once I get a chance to mutilate 'em. Hopefully, even if nothing will actually serve, I'll learn something from trying it.

[Zephaniah W Nash]

Okay, one set is done. A couple of caveats real quick before the pics:

This particular pair of shoes was probably not ideal for this project, they have several seams and such that are pretty much just for looks and wouldn't have been there on the period shoes, plus of course they are not straight-lasted.

Personally, I think the tongues are a bit short on these, but I will leave that up to those more knowledgeable. Plus, in the worn picture, please ignore the athletic socks -- no stockings at the moment.

Other than that, any comments are more than welcome -- this was an experiment, and I may be more wrong than I know. Overall, I think they should be useful (I have another set I'm saving until after any instructive criticism here), since the money I had set aside to buy the recreations suddenly evaporated...

Before pic (using the brown shoes on the left for this one):

Cut pic:

Worn pic:

Please let me know what you think, want to get the second pair more correct, if possible.

[Matty Bottles]

I think they look pretty good. I made the side opening a tad smaller on my shoes, the pics of which I have not yet posted, because I am muy lazy. I would suggest a smaller opening on your next shoes, like in the brown pair of shoes at the top of this page. And I would suggest ebay as a great place for shoes. I, too, had a hard time locating good shoes in the stores and at Goodwill, but I found a number for sale of ebay.

I purchased some 'ankle boots' but they were still rather low, and didn't have the super long tongues, but they still look pretty good for ten bucks and an hour's work.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Mr Nash

I can be somewhat of an a-hole as you have probably already figured out by my post...

But hey!

They turned out pretty good! Let me follow that up with saying I feel that there really is no substitute for correct shoes... but the reality is that correct shoes are not very important to most folks, and to those that it does matter, it STILL takes a lot of money and Time to get to the end goal.

So I have been racking my brain about the question I get quite often via my website which is roughly. "I want to get a pair of shoes but don't know what to get and ordering them takes a lot of time and money and I have an event next month"

I think you have just come up with the solution!

I hate advising anyone to go ahead and buy Rev War shoes as once you say its "ok", people 1) never upgrade to the right shoe and 2) are now $100+ invested in the wrong direction.

But, IMHO, you solution is an inexpensive bridge to the right shoes. Obviously, you have learned a lot about how shoes are supposed to look in your pursuit of modifying those shoes. And at the end of the day, they really don't look that bad!

The trick is getting shoes that have the basic shape, with the minimal amount of "fancy" stitching on the sides.

Also, for tied shoes, the ties also go though two holes made in the tongue. If you haven't already, check out the Belle shoe analysis .pdf posted above for ideas on construction.

GoF

[Zephaniah W Nash]

Okay, I could've sworn I posted a response earlier, but now it's gone. Must've hit preview without following up with post...

Oh well, take two.

Thanks for the advice, GoF and Bloody Jack!

With that info in mind, and the pdf that GoF posted (though it's a huge file, took ages to download on my aircard), I've worked over my second pair. I'm very happy with how these turned out, partially because of the squared toes, plus what I've learned from the other shoes.

Again, please ignore the athletic socks (really gotta get that order in) and the random deer hoof:

[Mary Diamond]

Funny, looks like 2 random deer hooves...

attached to a deer...

? Alive?

Nice SHOES!

[Merrydeath]

that looks like a good alternative to paying muy money for shoes, and very nice looking and comfortable besides..

and the deer feet???

[LadyBarbossa]

Bein' a Lady m'self... I use ribbons to tie my shoes. I don't even bother with the buckles. I've a couple antique mock buckles that'll work fantasticly with the ribbons, too. I wore a pair of the buckles with my gold gown at the RF2 on my white/bone shoes.

I use the ribbons on both my expensive, nice pair of shoes as well as the inexpensive ones I altered. Change the colors to match the outfit, even adjust to feet swelling or decreasing, etc.

But, aye, the leathery ties may be better fo' ye gents, depending upon yo'r look.

It is rather easy to find a pair out there to convert. If not for yo'rself, than for someone else.

"Tidings of the 18th century" by Beth Gilgun had some fantastic ideas on converting and altering modern footwear into historical/period footwear.

~Lady B

[Zephaniah W Nash]

Thanks for the comments, these will at least hold me over 'til I can figure exactly which period correct shoes I want to buy, as well as which ones I can afford. Got to do a bit more work on the square-toed shoes, need to run a few stitches along the cuts before they seperate...

The deer feet belong to the baby deer we're being foster parents for (her mother lost her during hay season back in the spring). Mostly she's out and about on her own all day (unless I'm trying to take pictures of shoes, of course), and we keep her in a fenced-in yard at night for the moment -- much more to keep neighbor dogs out than her in. We figure she'll be with us another couple or three months before the call of the wild takes her out into the wider world...

[Rats]

Well done sir!

A very noble act...

MY COMPLIMENTS!

[blackbonie]

wow that deer is so cute! and thank you for caring for her until she can take care of herself

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

One more thought on the insloes I forgot to mention; If you have the straight last shoes get the largest size insole you can find. The lack of left-right configuration in the shoes will make it uncomfortable for you and difficult to properly fit them in place. The bigger insloes can be better trimmed to conform to the straight last. This should keep you from finding out the hard way like I did!

Bo

[Quartermaster James]

Since this thread already has the shoe experts gathered, I thought I'd post here rather than start a new thread.

I can't seem to keep the prongs on one of my buckles flat. It keeps raising up, turning my footwear into additional weaponry! Any tips?

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Can you provide a visual image on that? We may be better able to help if we can see the problem. Be careful about taking a hammer to it, or rather don't try that first! Alot of back and forth bending will of course cause them to break.

Bo

[CrazyCholeBlack]

I'm wondering if you don't have the holes in the strap too far to the inside. That would account for the prongs "standing up" when the strap is done. Try moving the holes further out and see if that helps them lay flat again. Also make sure the holes are big enough so the prongs can really go through.