tattoos

[macstink]

greetings fellow fair and honest traders

this has bugged me for a while, but does anyone know if pirates/sailor's of the GAOP had tattoos (i'm pretty sure they did), if so is there any records of such and descriptions?

i ask as tattoos are abit of a hobby of mine!!!

[kass]

Hey MacStink!

Have you done a search here for "tattoo"? I dimly recall a discussion long ago in which Foxe gave some fairly compelling evidence against. I cannot remember if it was definitive in any way, and honestly I don't even remember if it was on this forum. But use that search function and see if something comes up.

Kass

[Silkie McDonough]

Might I suggest running a search for the word "tattoo" or "tatoo" in Captain Twill. There is an abundance of information on tattoo's to be found there.

[Littleneckhalfshell]

Information on Tattooing from http://www.powerverbs.com/tattooyou/history.htm

"In the west, early Britons used tattoos in ceremonies. The Danes, Norse, and Saxons tattooed family crests (a tradition still practiced today). In 787 AD, Pope Hadrian banned tattooing. It still thrived in Britain until the Norman Invasion of 1066. The Normans disdained tattooing. It disappeared from Western culture from the 12th to the 16th centuries." ..........

.........."William Dampher is responsible for re-introducing tattooing to the west. He was a sailor and explorer who traveled the South Seas. In 1691 he brought to London a heavily tattooed Polynesian named Prince Giolo, Known as the Painted Prince. He was put on exhibition , a money making attraction, and became the rage of London. It had been 600 years since tattoos had been seen in Europe and it would be another 100 years before tattooing would make it mark in the West."

"In the late 1700s, Captain Cook made several trips to the South Pacific. The people of London welcomed his stories and were anxious to see the art and artifacts he brought back. Returning form one of this trips, he brought a heavily tattooed Polynesian named Omai. He was a sensation in London. Soon, the upper- class were getting small tattoos in discreet places. For a short time tattooing became a fad."

it would seem from this information that Sailors with Tattoos would be quite rare in the GAoP

Though not impossible. I would guess you would have to have been one of those who wandered over to the South Pacific and spent time among the natives. Another possiblity is to have come from the East, Tattooing was apparently not adversely affected in Japan and other areas of the East when it was banned in the West by the Pope. I suppose since William Dampher showed up with the Polynesian prince in 1691, it might be possible by that by the later part of the GAoP there may have been more sailors with Tattoos, but I would hazzard to say that 1690-1700 it would be a rare thing indeed, and more than likely the same to the mid 1700's, well past the end of the GAoP as we usually understand.

[blackbonie]

Might I suggest running a search for the word "tattoo" or "tatoo"  in Captain Twill.  There is an abundance of information on tattoo's to be found there.

i searched for the famous thread about tattoos on here but never found it so i started one. didnt get much response and disappeared. tattoos are my LIFE (im a tattoo artist by profession and huge collector).

tho there isnt any evidence stating they did have tats,i also dont believe we know that they didnt.i think its totally possible depending where one traveled.

[kass]

"No evidence against isn't proof for."

Also: "Do not make the rare common and the common rare."

Those are Kass's Rules of Research #9 and #1, respectively.

Good Research Techniques

I have every respect and admiration of your profession, Bonnie! But history is my profession and statements like "it's possible" get you in trouble in my line of work.

Tattoo if you like it. But let's not say that GAoP sailors got tattoos without proof that they did.

[Tartan Jack]

I'll agree with Kass here.

No evidence to the contrary is NOT evidence FOR!!!!

Also, it is BEST to operate as the most common, not the rare when doing reenacting. Ren-faires/LARP/and fantasy are a WHOLE different matter.

For Example:

As MUCH as I'd LOVE to have evidence for tartan kilts (or belted plaids) being worn by pirates in the GAoP, there simply ain't NONE that I have seen.

So, I WON'T/CAN'T wear one during reenactments, even though they were COMMON DURING the period in the Highland of Scotland.

In fact, I could just swap my belted plaid for slops when jumping from Jacobite to Pirate. The REST of the kit is largely the SAME (including the JACKET), BUT there is NO evidence of disposessed Jacobites-turned-pirate WEARING kilts in the Caribbean. So, It must be "out," even IF I wanted to argue "period" (which it IS).

-The term "kilt" here refers to the "philabeg" (I prefer to just call it a "kilt," though it is not the tailored knife pleats of today) as seen in "Rob Roy" (advised by kilt/tartan expert Peter MacDonald http://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/ )

[kass]

Well said, Wages!

[Silkie McDonough]

Might I suggest running a search for the word "tattoo" or "tatoo"  in Captain Twill.  There is an abundance of information on tattoo's to be found there.

i searched for the famous thread about tattoos on here but never found.

Hmmm, I did one before I posted that quote and found numerous posts. Searched "Captain Twill", "tatoo", "today/older", "Search entire post", "Search entire post" got:

Assuming that this link will work.Twill's tatoo search results.

[Silkie McDonough]

And here is the other with pictured tattoos.

Do ye wear any Pyrate ink??

[kass]

Thanks for posting those, Silkie! Those will help a lot.

[macstink]

many thanks guys, the info and comments are really helpfull. i'd best keep my tattoos covered up at events from now on!

bit like this 'work in progress'!!

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/macs...20072007074.jpg

[kass]

Oh! Nice ink, MacStink! Is that new or have you been working on it for years?

[Edward T. Porter]

Speeking of tatoos and sailors: What is the origin of this one?

believe, love, faith

Is it just a "Sailor Jerry oldschool ink" from the last century or is this theme older?

[Littleneckhalfshell]

FAITH, HOPE, AND CHARITY (LOVE) mate, it is a religious symbol.

The Cross is Faith, the Anchor is Hope, and the Heart is Love.

[macstink]

there's bout 20hours under the needle there, which was coming along nicely till i got skint! it's the start of a full body suit, as ive work being done on my arms too. one day it'll be finished!

[Littleneckhalfshell]

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

Bible, New Testament, 1 Corinthians 13:13

So the 'theme' goes back to a guy by the name of Paul, in the first Centuary AD

Not sure when the symbols came into being to signify the passage, but the Anchor has been a Christian symbol for hope for a long time, even for people not near a body of water. Many early church pulpits were built to resemble the prow (bow) of a boat, so Nautical themes are found in the Church.

[Edward T. Porter]

Ah... okay... thank you! As a pagan I don´t have to know this

[Littleneckhalfshell]

"is it just a "Sailor Jerry oldschool ink" from the last century or is this theme older?"

You asked the question mate, just giving you the answer,

and I would say that it would be something that you need to know,

before you paste something on your skin that your brain isn't comfortable with.

[blackbonie]

i guess what i really mean to say is if you want tattoos get them,and dont worry if they are period.this isnt the 18th century and no amount of pretending will make it so,no matter how fun it is.dressing as a pirate is something you do,tattoos are who you are

and yes you should know the meanings of things before getting them inked,but if you have loved a particular design for months and have wanted it,get it. you only live once

you guys know history,but i know tattoos.

[Tartan Jack]

believe, love, faith

The heart with flames is one that is generally a Roman Catholic symbol, rather than one used by "protestants." I've seen similar ones also, without the flames at the top of the heart.

The anchor was seen as significant for 2 reasons:

1) The stalk and upper arms (NOT THE CORRECT NAMES) resembles a cross, so it was used as a representative cross during persecutions and when a proper cross was not on hand (they also used swords-> with the point down and the arms formed by the cross-guard.

2) The anchor itself is a Christian symbol of "the anchor in a storm" that fith provides, giving security to life and to keep one from fumbling and floating away. The anchor keeps one in place and provides stability. (A bunch interested in sailing should be able to "get" the symbolism).

As for the age, that precise illustration might be "modern," but the IDEA and symbolism is MUCH older.

Side question: Why would someone not a Christian WANT to use a cross or a cross based symbol? It is just something I don't understand. I would not WANT to emblazon myself with symbols STRONGLY associated with a religion I don't follow, so a non-Christian getting a cross tattoo is something I just don't get.

Anyone want to explain it to me? (PM is fine)

(This side question is not related to anyone in particular, but this thread reminded me of this question I have had for years.)

[blackbonie]

Side question: Why would someone not a Christian WANT to use a cross or a cross based symbol? It is just something I don't understand. I would not WANT to emblazon myself with symbols STRONGLY associated with a religion I don't follow, so a non-Christian getting a cross tattoo is something I just don't get.

Anyone want to explain it to me?

non-religious people get cross tattoos because they see one that looks cool and copy that person. i often ask the customer the reason for their tattoo and i very often hear "i saw this person with it and it looked awesome",or some variation of that same reply.i dont think that is a good reason to choose a tattoo,but its a very common one.

[kass]

i guess what i really mean to say is if you want tattoos get them,and dont worry if they are period.this isnt the 18th century and no amount of pretending will make it so,no matter how fun it is.

Oh absolutely! I wouldn't expect anyone to go nuts to cover up a tattoo just because it's not period. The fillings in my teeth aren't period either, you know!

When it comes down to it, we're modern people playing dress up. How far you want to go with that is up to you.

[Tartan Jack]

When it comes down to it, we're modern people playing dress up. How far you want to go with that is up to you.

Take it from the lady who has made a CAREER going NUTS over details and making PERIOD CORRECT patterns when the piles of others weren't QUITE accurate enough.

If SHE says its going a BIT to far, it probably is.

Don't me Kass.

And STOP TRYING TO LOOK UP MY KILT AND PAY ATTENTION!!!!!!!!

[kass]

You, lad, are cruising for a lashin'...