Patched .490 too tight in Queen Anne

[Mick MacAnselan]

So I found a reasonably local place to fire my Pedersoli Queen Anne (.50 caliber). But I could not load a greased-patched .490 Buffalo ball. (The patches are .015.) I wonder if this batch of balls is oversized or if the barrel is undersized. It's squeaky clean, so I know it's not fouled. I was able to load patchless balls just fine. Rolled part way in and then seated it against a pre-loaded patch a ramrod. Anyone else run into this problem? TIA.

[Captain Jim]

Let's do the math. .490 + (.015 x 2) = .520. Now .520 isn't going in a .500 hole. Note the (.015 x2) which is the total thickness of the patch on both sides of the bullet. So you probably need to drop to a smaller ball, thinner patches, ungreased patches or some combination of the above. Not owning a Pedersoli, I don't have a recipe for you but some in the Pub might.

[HarborMaster]

I use an .010 greased patch with a .490 round ball in my QA. Yes the pillow ticking you are using is thick., your combo patch and ball cannot exceed .50 or it cant fit. A Pedrosoli QA is actually a quality barrel and very true to the advertised .50 so I would definitely keep to the .490 ball to keep your groups (target shots) tight., just thin out the patch., go to a shooters shop or sporting section., youll find pre-lubed patches in a variety of thickness. I find lube helps and please

DO NOT USE A BALL STARTER AND A MALLET. you want the projo to roll in and out of the barrel easily.., the .490 will then a thin patch., tell us how you make out.

As a side note what do you use for lube., Moose-Milk is good., that is some lard (Crisco) heated and blended with wesson oil., then soak and stack patches., then take watcha need., or?..., someone just told me to use Lanolin hand cleaner. I bet it cleans the bore as it shoots and is a great lubricant.

[MadMike]

Try some thin cotton material from Wal Mart, JoAnn's, or your local fabric store (old bed sheet would work also). Make sure it's 100 percent cotton and no synthetic (burn a sample).

A spit patch works fine, just make sure it's soaked with spit (by placing it in your mouth, obviously) before you patch the ball and ram it home.

Yours, Mike

[Mick MacAnselan]

Let's do the math. .490 + (.015 x 2) = .520. Now .520 isn't going in a .500 hole. Note the (.015 x2) which is the total thickness of the patch on both sides of the bullet. So you probably need to drop to a smaller ball, thinner patches, ungreased patches or some combination of the above. Not owning a Pedersoli, I don't have a recipe for you but some in the Pub might.

Thanks. Actually I did the math before, but the patch is supposed to compress. I was told that a .15 with the .490 ball was the way to go. Even a 0.10 patch would be too thick (.490 + .10 +.10) not taking compression into consideration. Problem with using a smaller ball is that I haven't seen any that were not MUCH smaller, like .445 or so.

Here's the thing too... I subsequently experimented with some more of the .490 balls from the same box. Some would not go into the barrel at all, just by themselves. So either they are too big or the barrel is too small.

[Mick MacAnselan]

As a side note what do you use for lube., Moose-Milk is good., that is some lard (Crisco) heated and blended with wesson oil., then soak and stack patches., then take watcha need., or?..., someone just told me to use Lanolin hand cleaner. I bet it cleans the bore as it shoots and is a great lubricant.

The patches I tried are actually pre-lubed... can't say with what, because the stapled-on label seems to have gone missing. Thanks for the suggestions...I'll try them if I ever get the size thing worked out!

[HarborMaster]

Hmmmm., If your balls wont go in the barrel., You may want to mic the barrel..., at least youll know if it is truly a .50 caliber., I have never heard of a .44 Queen Anne but ., you never know. I bet you got a .50 and a bad batch of balls........., please do not misunderstand however..., the patch for a .490 ball would be., and should be an .010 ., you are writing .10 thats a HUGE differance. So I am not sure you are using the correct .010 but I bet the balls are not right..., perhaps at a sports shop you could take the QA and try the .490's they got in stock.

Thanks. Actually I did the math before, but the patch is supposed to compress. I was told that a .15 with the .490 ball was the way to go. Even a 0.10 patch would be too thick (.490 + .10 +.10) not taking compression into consideration. Problem with using a smaller ball is that I haven't seen any that were not MUCH smaller, like .445 or so.

Here's the thing too... I subsequently experimented with some more of the .490 balls from the same box. Some would not go into the barrel at all, just by themselves. So either they are too big or the barrel is too small.

If you are using a .010 ., then you got .490 + .01 +.01 and it compress's a bit as to not roll out of the barrel..., but it aint much.

.01 not .1

On the underside of my Pedrosoli the Serial No# bore size.., all that should be there.?

[Mary Diamond]

So glad you brought this up! I have my pair of Queen Anne's, got all the goodies to go with them, but need to get to a location to try them out.

Any recommendations for the O'Hare area?

[Patrick Hand]

I subsequently experimented with some more of the .490 balls from the same box. Some would not go into the barrel at all, just by themselves. So either they are too big or the barrel is too small.

That's probably the problem.....

Maybe the balls are deformed.....or too close to the bore size......

Much cheaper buying new balls (bullets) than a new barrel tho........

[HarborMaster]

Here's the thing too... I subsequently experimented with some more of the .490 balls from the same box. Some would not go into the barrel at all, just by themselves. So either they are too big or the barrel is too small.

I wonder if someone at the factory mismatched some .54 caliber balls into a .50 caliber rounball box..., could be Mick .., you never know.

[callenish gunner]

sounds like a terminal case of BAD BALLS !!!!

....try a new source for the balls you're trying to load....i've had 4 queen annes and never had problems with any of them

[MadMike]

Damn ye! All this talk about Queen Anne pistols motivated me to just order one!

Yours, Mike

[Kenneth]

Thinner patch for sure....I hit my patches with WD-40, I was told not to use that because its flammable! hahaha

[Capn_Enigma]

What amazes me is that no one objects to all those "patches" that everone here talks about.

Why would anyone want to "patch" a Queen Anne bullet? I mean, it's not like it this pistol is rifled or something, is it? With a smoothbore, you use wadding before and behind the bullet, not patches. Problem with the barrel windage solved.

[Patrick Hand]

Interesting point..... using patches (and a tighter fit) is a holdover from modern black powder rifle firing.....

With a smoothbore (musket), the ball should be loose, so when the gun gets fowled, the balls will still fit... wadding (or some people now use patches to do the same thing) just keeps the ball from rolling out of the barrel on a clean gun......

you use wadding before and behind the bullet, not patches.

I've only read about using wadding before the ball from a role-playing game....

(or for firing shot, but there are a few more steps to loading shot...)

I'm kinda courious where that info comes form....

[blackjohn]

What amazes me is that no one objects to all those "patches" that everone here talks about.

Why would anyone want to "patch" a Queen Anne bullet?

I thought it odd, but didn't feel like commenting. If I was loading from cartridges, it'd be bite the end off, prime the pan, pour the powder down the barrel, then send the ball down the barrel still wrapped in paper.

[HarborMaster]

Yes this a sort of awkward question.

Cartridges are cool and considered very safe., as opposed to pouring from a flask into a recently fired gun with a hot ember still down the bore turning your flask into a grenade. I havent made cartidges., but would like to learn., but not on my own., from someone who has done it. I do make them for cannon.,and they are much safer and faster.

There are actually some weapons for example an 1851 navy., that is cap n ball ., where the gun has a built in press., ., the ball fits so tight into the revolver chamber., that it is pressed into place with a press on the gun itself. In my experience the barrel wall of say a sea service pistol is not as thick as say an octogon .54 caliber lyman .

The sea service uses a lot less powder., and it uses a ball that can roll in and out of the barrel freely., so as to not have it be a pipe bomb. To keep it from rolling out ....., you use the correct patch....., and not use a ball starter and mallet., or you run the risk of ramping up the pressure.., a greased patch can help get more shots off between cleaning also .,it cleans a bit itself actually.and snugs the ball ., which in smooth bore helps with badly needed accuracy.

Rifled barrels and conicals run without patching., so do cannon., but once you get to an inch (for cannon) ., the ballistics change radically on black powder pressures. patching cannons is a bigg no-no according to the NSA. if you need to take up some slack., you should be getting a better fitting ball mold or use a sabot.

I just do the way I was taught and explained., I have been wrong before...,I just try to follow safety and rules as I understand them.

[Patrick Hand]

With a muzzle loading Rifle, you pour in a measured ammount of black powder, and then a lubricated patch around a soft lead ball.... the patch catches the rifling, so the ball spins....

With a Rifled Musket (later period) using cartridges, you get a cartridge, tear one end, and pour in the powder down the barrel, you then put in the soft lead mini-ball, and ram it home... (the base of the mini-ball expands to catch the rifling)...

With a cap and ball revolver (also later period), you pour in a measured black powder charge, and use the attached rammer to force a slightly larger soft lead ball into each chamber... you should "cut" a slight ring of lead off each bullet for a good fit. (the tight fit of the ball should cut down on the chance of chain fires... greasing each cylinder after they are loaded also helps...)

I've only "glanced" at how to load shot.... shot wads, overshot cards and such... because I've never fired shot (well not yet...) I won't post how shot is loaded....

blackjohn already posted loading a musket from a cartridge.... priming first is period..... but I feel safer using a priming horn, and doing it last.....

Also with a smoothbore, you don't have to use soft lead.... any lead will do....there isn't any rifling to worry about....

Like I posted eairler..... using patches (and a tighter fit) is a holdover from modern black powder rifle firing.....

[Captain Jim]

Actually, Blackjohn has it right: the paper of the cartridge acts as a "paper patch" when loading in a period correct manner from cartridges, keeping the ball from rolling out. Patches are for those who don’t roll their own.

Edit: Newsprint is .003" +/- 5%, much thinner than the .015 patch. I will go out on a limb and speculate that the "folds and edges" in a ripped open paper cartridge would serve as springs to press agains the sides of the barrel, causing much less friction than a patch. Just speculating mind you.

Related (sort of): I recommend the movie Jamaica Inn, 1939, Alfred Hitchcock, Charles Laughton, Robert Newton and introducing Maureen O’Hara. Good costume flick but the characters are shown loading their pistols (repeatedly) in the very manner described by Blackjohn. And who says Hollywood never gets it right.

[MadMike]

Let's not forget that pistol and musket loads used various projectiles (ball, buck and ball, slugs, multiple balls). I've read accounts where even moss was used with muskets to keep the ball in the bore.

Hell, Pere Labat mentions buccaneers using slugs in their muskets (forerunner of the Minie ball?).

In Benerson Little's book "A Sea Rover's Practice", Pere Labat discusses the buccaneer method of loading- pour powder down the barrel followed by a loose ball, and then slam the buttstock on the ground to prime the pan (one had to take care not to let the ball roll out when leveling on target). Apparently a buccaneer could load and fire in ten seconds using this method (or until the bore was fouled).

Yours, Mike

[Capn_Enigma]

Actually, Blackjohn has it right: the paper of the cartridge acts as a "paper patch" when loading in a period correct manner from cartridges, keeping the ball from rolling out. Patches are for those who don’t roll their own.

Please let us stick to the acgreed nomenclature so as to keep things

clear:

- Wadding is placed behind the ball to maximize its speed within the barrel and it is placed before it to keep it from rolling out of the barrel.

- A patch is wedged between the ball and a rifle's grooves to give the ball rotation, thus stabilizing its trajectory.

Newsprint is .003" +/- 5%, much thinner than the .015 patch. I will go out on a limb and speculate that the "folds and edges" in a ripclearped open paper cartridge would serve as springs to press agains the sides of the barrel, causing much less friction than a patch.

Paper in the 17th century was much thicker than a newspaper sheet. Perhaps you have held an older book of today (let's say from the Fifties or Sixties) in your hands (not the coffee table books with many pictures, but a novel or something like that). That is the paper thickness we are talking about.

If you use this kind of paper to "patch" a ball, it will rip, especially, when you ram it down the barrel with a ramrod. This will nullify the value of "patching" the ball at all. Plus there is no need to patch a smoothbore.

Paper cartridges were used thus for wadding:

The top with the ball was bitten off, the gunpowder in the container was poured down the barrel, the empty paper container was crumpled and thrown into the barrel, ramming it all down with the rod.

Then the ball plus the remaining paper was spat into the barrel, also ramming it down. (I have omitted priming etc here)

The remaining paper in front of the ball was barely enough to keep it from rolling out the barrel. Mission accomplished!

[Patrick Hand]

the empty paper container was crumpled and thrown into the barrel, ramming it all down with the rod.

Then the ball plus the remaining paper was spat into the barrel, also ramming it down.

Why bother using the ramrod twice ?

What are you firing, and do you load that way?

Other than not priming first from the catridge (I know it's period, but I still prime last).... I load the same way Blackjohn does....

Tear the cartridge, and pour in the charge, then load the ball with the paper still wrapped around it.

It's not exactly a "patch" ... nor is it "wadding".... it just keeps the ball from rolling out of a clean barrel if you point the muzzle down....

To be truthfully honnest, I really don't need the paper wrapped around the ball.... I fire right away. So I really don't have to worry about the ball rolling out of the barrel.....

Pere Labat discusses the buccaneer method of loading- pour powder down the barrel followed by a loose ball, and then slam the buttstock on the ground to prime the pan

I've read about Mountain men "running" bufflo doing the same thing.... but dang.... the touch hole would have to be realy large for that to work....

When "Running Bufflo", they fired at "point blank" range..... with old cut down smoothbores, so accuracy wasn't an issue....

But too large of a touch hole decreases accuracy (loss of pressure when the gun goes off) I find it hard to beleave that profesional hunters (Buccaneers) would sacrafice accuracy for slightly quicker loading.

[Patrick Hand]

Just for fun, I wanted to find some web pages showing "Musket Drill"....

I've seen these before, but I wanted to see it there was anything about using the ramrod twice... once to ram the cartridge for wadding and then for ramming the ball....

This one shows loading a matchlock.....

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Campgrou...8551/drill.html

And this one is from "The Exercise of Firelock & Bayonet… according to the method appointed by his Exc'ie Lieu't Gen'll Ingoldsby" with illustrations and 1728 translation from "Exercice pour toute l'infanterie de France" 1703."

http://members.aol.com/orkneysregt/drill.html

[Capn_Enigma]

the empty paper container was crumpled and thrown into the barrel, ramming it all down with the rod.

Then the ball plus the remaining paper was spat into the barrel, also ramming it down.

Why bother using the ramrod twice ?

I realize that I have expressed it mistakably.

It should have read:

The top with the ball was bitten off, the gunpowder in the container was poured down the barrel, the empty paper container was crumpled and thrown into the barrel, ramming it all down with the rod together with the ball and top wadding.

I wrote that post some five minutes before I had an urgent appointment. My apologies for the confusion it may have caused.

[Captain Jim]

Musket drill, battlefield style

Here we have some folks who do this for a living. Note the recoil. Those are indeed live rounds, smoothbore. Not that I'm disagreeing with Enigma, just that there may have been other ways of skinning the cat. I prefer the "push the paper with the ball" method.

Edit: While paper was thicker for books, paper for newsprint was still thinner than most fabric. Also, the paper of that time, especially the thinner stock, contained a high content of rag (cotton, silk, linen and other fibers from waste cloth) fibers that made it much "softer" but stronger as well.