Gun Qustions

[elninoprimo]

I had a few qustions regrading pistols and rifles. On many plates i see them with sashes or something holding the pistols up to 4. How would you recreate this. And i have seen many antique pistols beautifully engraved and inlaid with gold. Would this be practical for a common pistol or rifle.

[Capt Thighbiter]

I am supprised that none of the more learned wags here have not responded toye question afore this mate. Hae ye pissed off anyone lately?

There are several discussions on this topic in Capt Twill folder, just scroll down a few pages.

Short answer: Sashes ( ribbons) were used to hold a brace of pistols. Likewise a baldric was used to hold a few pistols, either by holster ( available online from a few leather working outfits) or by using pistols with belt hooks, hooked onto the baldric, though the few who have tried this say the weight of the pistols makes the baldric shift appreciably ( as gravity brings the weight of the guns as low as it can) or one of the guns smaks you in the teeth as you are running.

[Jack Roberts]

Well I'm thinking about how much running you might be doing while boarding a ship. In the close combat of taking over a ship I wouldn't think you would running around a whole lot. (I'm just speculating here, I mean no offence really just playing devil's advocate here. ) On the other hand I would speculate that you would be climbing up on board and possibly climbing up some rigging to get around a bit. That would case for concern trying to avoid getting slammed in the mouth.

I've read, at least what I remember, I could be wrong, that pirates really favored their guns and would resort to the blade last. So I would build a mock up of how I wanted to carry multiple firearms and toss on all my garb and run around. See what happens and what is comfortable. Try to mimic what I've seen in period plates and paintings.I don't know just spewing out ideas here.

[Captain Tightpants]

I had a few qustions regrading pistols and rifles. On many plates i see them with sashes or something holding the pistols up to 4. How would you recreate this. And i have seen many antique pistols beautifully engraved and inlaid with gold. Would this be practical for a common pistol or rifle.

There is, contrary to popular belief, a Search function to these Forums. It's just under the "Get yer own Black Spot" ad. Use it to answer your questions about carriage of arms.

As for engraving and all the frou-frou: the short answer is "No."

The reason you see so many antique firearms inlaid with gold, mother of pearl, and engraved in 2007 is because they're pretty. Fine things are precious, cared for, kept locked away, and thus tend to survive longer than the far, far more common like implements. The bare-bones pistols, the plain ones, will get used up. The German silver inlaid, engraved pistols were probably never even fired. Just too pretty.

So, even if you're portraying the captain of a pirate ship, carrying about engraved and inlaid pistols is wrong. If you'd even have them, they'd be locked in a box in your quarters. You certainly wouldn't go about hanging them from ribands or baldricks.

[Captain Jim]

I have read somewhere that the first to board a prize was often given first pick of captured weapons, over and above the normal share of plunder. The captain of a rich merchant might have such pistols and therefore they might come into the possession of a pyrate. But even then, it's not what he would carry into battle and would probably sell for cash ashore. This, however, is speculation. I cannot recall a reference to any common pyrate having such in his possession.

[capnwilliam]

I tend to take the whole "carrying multiple pistols" idea with a large grain of salt. Police friends have told me what a blessing it is to unbuckle that single, two-pound .357 or 10-round .40 at the end of an 8-hour shift.

I believe that our conception of pirates walking around with 4 - 8 huge pistols in baldrics or sashes is based on a drawing of Blackbeard so attired. Whether he or anyone else actually did so in real life is debatable.

Anyone who wants to carry multiple heavy pistols should first try carryimg ONE around for several hours.

Capt. William

[theM.A.dDogge]

now i was under the impression as to be carrryin mutliple weapons was for heading into a fight only....shoot one drop one...from a bit of a distance aways...so as to not have to use your sword...(like bringin a knife to a gun fight)...so by the time you got close enough to use your sword...most of the pistols were gone...and hopefully the guy you were shootin at too.

[Captain Pogue]

I read somewhere that it was common during the period for painters to embellish a subject's clothing and jewelry, at least for portraits of wealthy clients. Gotta look your best and all then some. All the fancy portraits are really over the top and not as accurate as they could be. I could see the same mentatlity bleeding over into pieces of a more common vein. A pirate looks more fearsome with four guns than just one.

I can also see a pirate toting a fancy pistol on-shore if he had one. Think about how people like to show the biggest and the shiniest of anything they have today. I can't imagine that people have changed that much. Uncomfortable, try wearing high heels to work all day. They look nice but are uncomfortable as hell.

Yeah, to what Mad Dogge said. Stick them in your stash and stand there shooting until you run out out pistols or have to move.

Pogue

[theM.A.dDogge]

pogue makes a good point...careful which paintings your usin as a refference point...many 17th scottish portraits show detailed plaids...which could not have been physically made with techiniues known at the time the painting was done...sitting for portaytes took too long...so they sat for a ...head shot...put on another previviously completed body and background....those damn artists....always being so creative....

[Skull pyrate Carter]

to my understanding and with my research,

Blackbeard DID indeed have a brace with like eight pistols. It was not uncommon to have more than one pistol at the ready when attacking, since the reloading was impossibly long/difficult, they would fire the shots then board....

[blackjohn]

Something I posted on the Pirate Brethren forum recently...

Just flipping through the archives and came across this description of a guy jailed in Philly under suspicion of piracy. Note, this is during that time when pirates openly walked the streets of Philly, but pressure was being put on the govt to crack down. A couple of them were gaoled, but "escaped" and...

That the same

                  day or next day after he went to the Prison to see the Place

                  where they were said to make their escape & at the bottom

                  of the doore did see where there had been a board about 14

                  inches long & 10 inches broad ript off but could not possibly

                  believe tht men of tht bulke could get through at such a place

                  especially Chinton who is said to be a very fat gross man

                  That the sd morning they brake Prison the Governt issued out

                  a Hue and Crye to take them wth a promise (by the Bellman)

                  of a reward of five pounds a piece to any one that should

                  apprehend them. That in the afternoone one Hannah Witt

                  came to this Informant & Mr Francis Jones before whome she

                  made oath she had seen the sd Chinton & Lassell three times

                  that day among a parcell of bushes neer a place called the

                  Centure in Philadelphia, Chinton having a sword by his side a

                  pistoll in one hand, another stuck in his girdle & a musket

                  upon his shoulder.

[kass]

Let me begin by saying that I am no firearms historian.

William, I am of the same mind as you. Those things are heavy!

However, I am not a pirate. Or a sailor. Or anyone who carries a gun for a living. Or a person who lived in that time period. (This last point is the most important and the thing we are most often in danger of forgetting). From my research in other areas, I know that they did a lot of things that don't make sense to us as modern people, even those of us in similar modern professions.

That being said, no proof is no proof. So here's some proof by people more knowledgeable than I:

A discussion on the PB forums started by Bloody Davy Cash of the Pirate Brethren who's looked into the subject extensively.

An article on the methods of carrying weapons by our own Blackjohn.

[capnwilliam]

I read somewhere that it was common during the period for painters to embellish a subject's clothing and jewelry, at least for portraits of wealthy clients. Gotta look your best and all then some. All the fancy portraits are really over the top and not as accurate as they could be. I could see the same mentatlity bleeding over into pieces of a more common vein. A pirate looks more fearsome with four guns than just one.

Pogue

Aye to that!

I believe you can see the same idea at work in those famous posed Civil War photos of ordinary Billy Yanks and Johnny Rebs, posing in the studio with sabres, Bowies, a pair of .44 revolvers, etc.

People today would take that as "period documentation" of what rank and file soldiers actually carried into battle, when in reality it's nothing but a souvenir photo of a young recruit trying to look fearsome for the folks back home.

But, I'm getting out of period here.

Capt. William

[kass]

But that's an excellent example, William!

"People today" might take that as documentation of what men carried into battle in that time period. Historians, however, will not.

There has been ample study on the phenomenon of people "dressing up" for portraits -- even before the advent of photography -- and the wild forms that it sometimes takes. Every book on period photographs (and portraits, painted or photographic) has dedicated whole chapters to the subject.

The simple truth is that a studio photograph of a Civil War solider is only documentation of what he wore in the studio that day. That's it.

[Patrick Hand]

I had a few qustions regrading pistols and rifles.

I missed that on my first reading....

The question should have been about pistoles and Muskets.... Rifiling was just developing at the time.... Sure there were a few experiments, but smoothbores were much more common........

[Skull pyrate Carter]

Hey let me just say one thing, today's soldier has better weaponry and yet we still go into battle with over a hundred pounds of weaponry and gear not to mention heavy body armor (when supplied.)

[callenish gunner]

i think that perhaps there are a few points missing here ....such as in a sea battle of the era the men would arm themselves when the battle was imminant not for hours on end or daily ....it was for just the duration of the battle ...and so the carrying of multiple pistols for that short length of time was very possible ...the same idea as a soldier behind ramparts might have had the availabilty of several muskets at his disposal (perhaps those of wounded comrades or from the arsenal) didn't mean he carried them all into battle but he could have them at the ready .....in desperate times men will do desperate things and if that means carrying 4-5-6 extra weapons during a relatively short battle ....hell i know i'd do it if it gave me a better chance of being the winner of the battle ....and once over i'd sit down and relax and enjoy my spoils ....but that is just my humble opinion

[theM.A.dDogge]

here here...my sentiments exactly....no wonder they call ya "GUNNER"

[Captain Pogue]

The image of Billy Connely in Boondock Saints outside the ganster house with his vest o' guns goes floating by.

Pogue

[callenish gunner]

40 years ago in a southeast asian jungle i carried a 12 ga. remmington shotgun with a bandolier that held 50+ extra rounds of 00 buckshot and 2 -9mm browning pistols with 6 extra clips and at least 6 "baseball" fragmentation grenades and of course my 2 knives ......weapons and ammo alone were about 40-50 pounds and we covered lots of miles in an average day add to that packs with explosives and detinators another 10-15 pounds ......we did what we needed to do to survive ....

[capnwilliam]

40 years ago in a southeast asian jungle i carried a 12 ga. remmington shotgun with a bandolier that held 50+ extra rounds of 00 buckshot and 2 -9mm browning pistols with 6 extra clips and at least 6 "baseball" fragmentation grenades and of course my 2 knives ......weapons and ammo alone were about 40-50 pounds and we covered lots of miles in an average day add to that packs with explosives and detinators another 10-15 pounds ......we did what we needed to do to survive ....

I don't doubt it, Callenish. I salute you fer yer service! But you were a soldier, going up against other soldiers: everyone armed and ready to fight to the death.

Somehow I doubt that pirates felt the need for so many small arms. If intimidation via the black flag didn't do the trick, I would think a shot fired over the prey vessel's bow would. Remember that pirates weren't - voluntarily - going up against the Royal Navy, but rather poorly armed merchants, manned by crewmen not inclined to fight it out with them.

I'm still curious as to what period documentation exists that pirates carryied multiple braces of pistols: other than the Blackbeard portrait.

Capt. William

[Kenneth]

I'm still curious as to what period documentation exists that pirates carryied multiple braces of pistols: other than the Blackbeard portrait.

Capt. William

I've been looking into that for like 3 months! Let us know if you find anything..

Didn't ships keep lockers of pistols and then handed them out from the armoury before battle? Could you imagine what 300 pistols together would look like? Pretty bulky...Then to give every sailor 4 or 5 pistols? I don't know about that.

[Patrick Hand]

From Under the Black Flag

The practice of going into action armed to the teeth is confirmed by numerous accounts of pirate attacks. The carrying of several pistols was not simply to frighten the enemy but was a wise precaution. Flintlock pistols were unreliable at sea, and if one failed to fire because of a damp charge; a second might save the day..... 

Bartholomew Roberts had two pairs of pistols hanging at the end of a silk sling......

Pirates were also in the habit of wearing their weapons when they were off duty..... In his sash stuck a brace of pistols, and he had one in his right hand.......

Hey.... I didn't want to type the whole page.... but you can look it up.... Under the Black Flag may not be the best reference... but I think this part is right......

[Skull pyrate Carter]

Pirates might not have been the most educated, but they were not about honor. They were about the greed. and greedy people don't care to die. When you put in the unreliability and reloading times you would want to have a multitude of firearms which will allow you to kill/hurt/maim all those who want to kill you from a distance.

[Captain Jim]

As my sensei used to say, "Outside of the ring, there is no place for honor in a fight." So-called "honor fights," dueling and the like, have rules. Real fights have none. So if you are a mercenary, fight like you want to live to spend your gains.