Barbossa style slops................

[smoolie671]

I'm looking for anyone who might make the Barbossa style slops, or possibly a pattern for them. Mind you I'm not looking for some cheap drawstring for the waist type. Rather something that is nicely pleated at the top with either drop or button front, and a nice buttoned cuff below the knee. Of course I could be using the wrong term for the item of clothing. Ideas, suggestions?

[Patrick Hand]

You might have better luck asking in PLUNDER (the thread right below this one)....

In Capt. Twill, we will argue about how proper for thier time period they are.....

[Tartan Jack]

In Capt. Twill, we will argue about how proper for their time period they are.....

He is right.

[Abrams]

You might have better luck asking in PLUNDER (the thread right below this one)....

In Capt. Twill, we will argue about how proper for thier time period they are.....

Now the real question is:

Are they proper for their period?

[Tartan Jack]

You might have better luck asking in PLUNDER (the thread right below this one)....

In Capt. Twill, we will argue about how proper for thier time period they are.....

Now the real question is:

Are they proper for their period?

By that . . .

I assume "their period" is GAoP (early 1700s)-> 1713-1725.

[Capt. Sterling]

In which case, what Barbossa is wearing is no...

[LadyBarbossa]

Side tracking from the historicals of it... but, here ye are Smoolie... if you be wanting the basics of the Barbossa pantaloons... I made m'self a pair very similar to...

Here is a pic of the actual Barbossa pants...

Again, I'll post this under plunder, too.

~Lady B

[Jack Roberts]

So i'm curious, I mean not to upset anyone but looking at the pic of the actual

pant worn, what makes it unacceptable of GoAP? The only thing I see is the gathers at the waist band. From what I've researched on breeches that is about the only I can see. Due to my inexperience in such things, I would like to hear from our resident clothing historians.

[Jack Roberts]

So I went poking around the Costumer's Manifesto, their website

I found this,

Scroll down almost to the end.

Link for the Pic

Now they say its of Dutch origin, but the Dutch were in the caribbean at the time. So maybe something like those pants would be possible? True its not of a sailor so maybe not. Can someone else confirm the pic? Aside from the Costumer's Manifesto.

They seems to be pretty good.

[CrazyCholeBlack]

So i'm curious, I mean not to upset anyone but looking at the pic of the actual

pant worn, what makes it unacceptable of GoAP? The only thing I see is the gathers at the waist band. From what I've researched on breeches that is about the only I can see. Due to my inexperience in such things, I would like to hear from our resident clothing historians. 

actually that was my thought looking at the actual pants as well.

From what I can tell

Good:

the waist band looks OK

the over lapped fly arrangement

the fact that it buttons all the way down

possibly the gathers, although pleats might be more period (?)

bad:

can't see how the bands of the legs are closed. Are they buttoned shut?

can't see the back. Does it have the eyelets for adjustability along the waistband? Does it have the lovely "square butt" look?

they look a little long

[Capt. Sterling]

Can someone post a picture of Barbossa (Geoffry Rush) actually wearing them...If I recall correctly the trousers are made not to end below his knees but are long enough to tuck into his boots... something breeches did not appear to do at that time frame... if one desires long, full breeches, like Rush's appeared to be in the flick (again from what I remember), then the thing that comes to mind is something circa 1620-30s....

Nob1629 Nobleman from the Garden of French Nobility series by Abraham Bosse

1625 Cavalier by Jacques Callot (1592-1635)

which would seem more appropriate for the "style" of boot Rush is wearing... like unto Musketeers or prior to ECW. Also the slashed/open sleeves on his coat....

The picture posted from Costumer's Manifesto almost looks like something of Racinet's (1825-1893). Here, once again, my naughty originals of Dutch Mariners,

Both images taken from Caspar Luyken's work published in 1703

Again look at the picture, the breeches end beneath the knee, (and oops NO BOOTS) not down at midcalf to tuck into boots...although on a dress dummy as pictured one really can't tell how they sat on Rush.... again a picture of him would help more... and remember if they are long enough to tuck down into boots, (like modern riding breeches) just wrong and also because the type of bucket boots that Disney is trying to emulate are no longer being worn in the GAoP. Of all the mariners portrayed in the Disney films, to me, the Endinburgh captain and his cronies, in the second film, looked the closest to the real thing. JMHO

[Patrick Hand]

Basicaly it depends on what time period you want to portray....

For Buccaneer (about 1650 - 1675) they are close....

For Golden Age (about 1700-1720) they are out of fashion....(<edit> or Dutch ) the lower legs are too baggy.... (it would be like wearing a zoot suit today, and thinking it is modern dress..... (not that zoot suits arn't cool...))

Cut off the knee bands and they are very close to slops tho.....

For Hollywood Pyrate.... they are period 2003 (when the Movie came out)

(see my other post in PLUNDER for how to make them.... )

[Jack Roberts]

Yeah I thinking they were a bit also. I forgot to mention that.

And your right Capt'n, I guess this really is a moot point because of the boots.

But they do look fairly close to some if the plates. I also saw those 1600ish plates and thought the exact same thing. Maybe I need to put somthing of that nature together for the Ren Faire's my wife and I attend from time to time. At least that gets me closer to the time period. I just can't bring myself to wear tights and a cod piece.

[Jack Roberts]

Here is a pretty good shot of mr. Rush in costume. You can really see how long the breeches are. So in that sense they're not period. I have always liked Barbossa's pants in a hollywood kinda way.

[Capt. Sterling]

As Patrick said, for GAoP... skin tight, no, but not as baggy as Rush's appear in the movie....

here some more 1703 prints of breeches from Luyken

1678

and circa 1680-1690

circa 1696

[Rumba Rue]

In the Renaissance era as it came to a close, many gentlemen wore breeches just like those, but most did not have the over fly cover of the buttons.

The legs either buttoned at the just below the knee or were tied.

I have a pattern used by the St. Michael's (Military Guild at Southern Renaissance Pleasure Faire) for the pants they use and it is virtually identical to what is shown in the picture of the Barbossa pants.

The thing about all that gathering in the waistband, is unless you are somewhat thin, it will most certainly make you look overly large in the hip/leg area.

When I've made breeches like that for people (myself included) I try not to gather too much material into the waistband to help create a smoother appearance. I'm also real fond of elastic waistbands (oh the horror as other costumers lament out there...) so it's a whole lot more comfortable and besides virtually no one sees the waistband depending on how the rest of your garb covers it.

The latest pair of pants I made are much longer, so if I were wearing boots I could tuck them into the boot tops. I also used black grograin ribbon for the ties instead of buttons.

You all have to remember, not all pirates were in the Carribean. In that area you would probably be wearing lightweight materials as opposed to the English coast where the weather is much cooler.

Also, fashions were handed down from one person to another. So it could infact be true that Dutch, German and other countries would have clothing from there in GoP.

[Capt. Sterling]

And for the middling sort in all of us... just a small spattering

From Mauron's The Cries of London

Original Fashion plates from the LACMA collection

and a print by Biscart (sp) for an edition of Robinson Crusoe

[Capt. Sterling]

In the Renaissance era as it came to a close, many gentlemen wore breeches just like those, but most did not have the over fly cover of the buttons.

The legs either buttoned at the just below the knee or were tied.

I have a pattern used by the St. Michael's (Military Guild at Southern Renaissance Pleasure Faire) for the pants they use and it is virtually identical to what is shown in the picture of the Barbossa pants.

The only thing is though, what we call Renaissance is NOT GAoP....yes they may have had pirates then but tis a different time frame all together.

[Capt. Sterling]

Here is a pretty good shot of mr. Rush in costume. You can really see how long the breeches are. So in that sense they're not period. I have always liked Barbossa's pants in a hollywood kinda way. 

Okay not as long as I recalled and a clear break between the top of the boot and the bottom of the breeches... could almost pass for the Dutch style... so I stand corrected... especially if his background is Dutch.

[Capt. Sterling]

I just can't bring myself to wear tights and a cod piece. 

Certainly do NOT blame you there.... ugh...that and petticoat breeches

[Ransom]

I like the "English Admiral at Sea." Especially for the fact that he has his shirt and coat sleeve shoved up on his sword arm. I also find the variety of hat styles in the pictures interesting. Lots of ideas there.

Thanks for posting them, Captain.

[Jack Roberts]

could almost pass for the Dutch style... so I stand corrected... especially if his background is Dutch.

yeah but still not right because of the boots.

It funny how much of the "Pirate look" aka Pyle and PoTC comes from the early 1600 cavaliers. Makes me wonder if that is where the inspiration came from, and if so why there and not from the period? I've been reading an old thread about earrings

Earring discussion

a very fun read. I really like it when people can argue but still be civil and not take everything to personal. Just got me thinking.

[Maggie Crowe]

Here's a pic of the pants Rush wore in the movie:

I'm using AlterYears 'Easy Renaissance Breeches' pattern to use as a basis for mine, available at patternsoftime.com. Probably not correct for GoAP, but easy enough to alter

[smoolie671]

I appreciate that people here are trying to stay historically correct. But due to the thousands of people, and the mutitude of countries at the time of the GAOP, there is no way to know for certain that absolutly no one had the style of pants that "Barbossa" is depicted as wearing.

True we have plenty of historcally acurate pictoral references, however that is no excuse for developing tunnel vision when it comes to our clothing. In other words we do not know "everything" that was worn in that era by "everyone". Whether the cuffs are at the knee or 2 inches below the knee, whether they were pleated or gathered, button fly or drop fall makes no real world relevance. Since we didn't live in that period we have to rely on the historical pictures of the time, and that is only a partial picture at best.

I'm not saying that we should go and start wearing sequins and florescent colors. What I'm trying to say is that there is breathing room here.

[Capt. Sterling]

Sorry no breathing room for fall front breeches during the GAoP... didn't come around until what...1750s I believe... again as Kass has always said, don't make the rare common or the common rare...breathing room or no...