17th century Pistols

[AllByMeOnesies]

This is going to sound like a very strange question, but...I'm wondering what type of result would be had if a pistol was fired pointblank at another person's head. I know it would most likely be fatal, but what I'm wondering is the type of damage caused. Pistols nowadays on TV leave seemingly neat little holes. I'm wondering with the type of ball used in a 17th century pistol pointblank if it would be...um...messy or not. And how on earth does one find this out (short of shooting someone pointblank with said pistol )?

[capnwilliam]

Short of shooting a live person - which I don't recommend! - or a live animal: no test will give you a reliable result, because blood doesn't flow post mortem. Even if you shot an animal - or human - cadaver in the cranium: it's not the same thing as shooting a live one.

The closet replication would be a study of shootings of human subjects in the head with a contemporary, large caliber pistol, like a .45. Which, of course, is still a lot smaller than a period .62 pistol.

Capt. William

[Story]

I'm wondering with the type of ball used in a 17th century pistol pointblank if it would be...um...messy or not. And how on earth does one find this out (short of shooting someone pointblank with said pistol )?

1. A .62 caliber ball backed by 30 to 40 grains of FFG/FFFG, point blank against a skull? Yes, messy.

2. Tests are done today on ballistic gelatin.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/

http://www.firearmsid.com/Gelatin/index.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistics_gel

3. Just because a weapon design is three centuries old, doesn't make it any less lethal.

[The Chapman]

Abstract

Three suicides and one homicide from black powder muzzle loading handguns are reported and the muzzle velocities of two weapons are recorded. The fatal head shots caused wide wound tracts traversing the brains and intracerebral haemorrhages remote from the tract were present in every case. The skulls showed considerable fractures which were pronounced in the cases of contact shots but were also present when the range of fire was 5 m. These extensive injuries from soft lead spheres with muzzle velocities of only 200 m/s are attributed to the expansion of the spheres. The regularly occurring deformation resulted in 13–16 mm calibre missiles in the cases of .44 spheres. The special features of black powder such as incomplete and slow combustion resulted in intense soot deposits in the vicinity of the entrance wound and in long ranges the gunshot residues travelled. In contact shots, large pocket-like underminings even in deeper tissue layers, abundant soot along the trajectory and skin burns were observed.

Source: Forensic Science International, Dec. 1998.

(This is why so many reenactments give me panic attacks. I am convinced a lot of the people involved do NOT treat their playtoys (weapons) with proper respect. These old charcoal burners can and will kill you. )

Short answer? Blam, splat. Oh, and never, NEVER, believe anything about guns you see on TV or in the movies. NEVER!

[blackjohn]

(This is why so many reenactments give me panic attacks. I am convinced a lot of the people involved do NOT treat their playtoys (weapons) with proper respect. These old charcoal burners can and will kill you. )

It's the reason I quit the RevWar unit I was in. One person was just too iffy. I feel pretty safe among my pirates. They are all experienced and take safety serious.

[Captain Jim]

Entry holes, both then and now, are the size of the bullet, round or conical. A .62 cal bullet would leave a larger entry than a modern .45. The messy destructive part comes after entry and is a function of three main factors: speed, weight and malleability, the tendency of the bullet to deform after impact. These three things combined effect an energy transfer from the bullet to the object. The energy will be transferred in a generally conical shape, from the small entry to a wider area of internal damage. If energy is transferred quickly, using a large or highly deformable bullet, the damaged area is shallow and wide. If the energy is not transferred efficiently, the damaged area will be deep and narrow, to the point of passing through an individual without significant damage, allowing the individual to (possibly) continue functioning but also hitting anyone behind them (two birds with one stone).

For the most efficient damage one would have to match the target with the bullet, bullet speed and malleability. Ultimate mess would be achieved with energy transfer nearly complete at the far side of the target. Head shots with small, fast, jacketed (hard) bullets would pass through without much mess on the far side. A .62 cal soft lead ball fired at close range would destroy the far side of the head and create a hell of a mess on the bulkhead behind.

Wound ballistics short course is now over. Any questions?

[Salty]

like any weapon if ye dinae know how to use it and know the consequences that can occur from such then never pick it up. If you want to know then ask and if you still want to know then fire one at a range without anyone near or standing behind yourself when you do fire it. Any projectile will cause rather nasty wounds even the so called neat little holes that are pictured in the movies.........tis the rest of the picture you don't see that gets nasty.

17th century or 21 st the result will be the same one hell of a mess.

not to make light of the question at all.

[callenish gunner]

a head wound from a large caliber blackpowder weapon makes a large entry wound like stated the size of the projectile at least ...then another side effect is the resulting bone fragments also become projectiles within the head so there will be considerable damage and blood loss until the heart stops beating which can continue for several seconds in a wound to the brain ....a very messy scenario ...one i hope few if any of you ever get to witness

[HarborMaster]

Neat entry wound ?

I will be staying on the side of capnwilliam .,Captain Jim ., and of course callenish gunner . Again ....., neat entry wound ??? John Fitzgerald Kennedy .,there., there was a live one., Back an to the left...., Back and to the left.

I propose at point blank range a large caliber slow moving projo will definitely do more damage . Sometimes the bullet will enter.,and go thru..., with todays weapons.,High Velocity !!!

However if you were to hit a bone with say a .54 caliber up to a .75 caliber.........., a head shot ? there wouldnt be much left. Soup .

[AllByMeOnesies]

Great stuff, guys! Thanks so much for the info. Very enlightening. I toast you all.

[The Chapman]

Deleted.

[theM.A.dDogge]

aye...yall seemed to have covered all the bases here...just for a visual though...we used to have a contest...to cut a 4x4 post in half...only using black powder muskets...we found that less powder..ie less velocity...caused more damge to the post...front as well as back...too much powder...nice pretty little hole...lose the prize....

how this translates to a point blank head shot tell me how it goes

[CrazyCholeBlack]

I can't take credit for the photo, it's from Port Washington last year (if Mr. Last or Mr. Calin see this & can chime in with the photographers name, I'd appreciate it). Now granted this isn't a human head, but it's a good look at what close range shots, with even just powder, can do to a semi soft object.

[Capt. Sterling]

FWIW:

Hmmm okay not black powder pistols, but studies done on human skulls found at Rev War site in Tappan, NY, If I recall the location correctly, show that the butt end of a musket slammed into a sleeping man's skull, resulted in an entry wound the size of the butt end of the musket and an exit wound much larger. Okay not a true exit wound, but the human skull appears to react so that when damaged by a blow from one direction, blow seems to travel through the skull and blow out the far/opposite side. Now these were not gunshots but a bludgening wound. Again, another example, a man was hit in the temple on the golf course by a golf ball. He was knocked out for about two minutes, came to, felt fine and finished the game. The wound from the golf ball blew out a piece of his skull that took the rest of the game time, to travel across the man's brain until it hit a spot that finally killed him. He collasped an hour or so later after arriving home.

[AllByMeOnesies]

That melon shot picture is certainly sobering. Melon mash, anyone?

[SilasTalbot]

Granted, this piece of info relates to muskets and is post-GAoP. In the aftermath of the Boston Massacre, John Hickling testified at the trial that he was standing next to Samuel Gray when he was shot (at a range of probably no more than 15 feet). When Hickling knelt to check Gray's condition he "found a hole in his head as big as a man's hand".

Messy indeed.

All the contributions in this thread are VERY helpful to those of us in the fight choreography/stunt performer business who DO try to keep the effects of various weapons truthful, as well as SAFE. Thanks to everyone.

S.T.

[Story]

Messy indeed.

All the contributions in this thread are VERY helpful to those of us in the fight choreography/stunt performer business who DO try to keep the effects of various weapons truthful, as well as SAFE. Thanks to everyone.

S.T.

So you'll be filling a hot water bladder with a can of stewed tomatos[/color=red], to replicate the resulting exit wound spray?

[HarborMaster]

My .75 caliber "Spray gun" what do ya suppose a dollar (10 dimes) at point blank range to the head would do with this tool ?

[Capn_Enigma]

My .75 caliber "Spray gun"  what do ya suppose a dollar (10 dimes) at point blank range to the head would do with this tool ?

S'pose it'll get you a few pounds of hamburger meat and 20 cents in change?

[SilasTalbot]

So you'll be filling a hot water bladder with a can of stewed tomatos[/color=red], to replicate the resulting exit wound spray? 

That all depends...are you offering me a job?

[Ol Man From the Sea]

what do ya suppose a dollar (10 dimes) at point blank range to the head would do with this tool ?

Things would be pretty much the same after as before. After all ten dimes = small change!

[John Maddox Roberts]

Some years ago in a magazine article I saw some pictures of the skull of Charles XII of Sweden, who was shot in the head in the early 18th century. The circumstances are not clear, but apparently the shot came from a musket on the Norweigian side, though there is speculation that he was shot at close range by a Swede in an assassination. whatever, the skull displays a large but neat hole on one side, and a huge, gaping hole on the other. The pics are probably available online somewhere. One thing is sure: Charles never knew what hit him.

[Kenneth]

However if you were to hit a bone with say a .54 caliber up to a .75 caliber.........., a head shot ?    there wouldnt be much left. Soup .

I'd have to agree! When we get gunshot victims in at the funeral home (it's what I do) there is a lot more damage when the rounds hit bone. Self inflicted through the mouth with a .45 or larger and they always look like Sloth from Goonies! I never get used to seeing that.

[HarborMaster]

S'pose it'll get you a few pounds of hamburger meat and 20 cents in change?

yes !

Things would be pretty much the same after as before. After all ten dimes = small change! 

Actually 10 dimes is to much weight for a projo really in my particular Blunderbuss ., very hard on the barrel..., the shoulder and its alot more recoil. .30 cents carries alot of weight actually.

I'd have to agree! When we get gunshot victims in at the funeral home (it's what I do) there is a lot more damage when the rounds hit bone. Self inflicted through the mouth with a .45 or larger and they always look like Sloth from Goonies! I never get used to seeing that.

Heres a tasty one......, an eye ball shot.., without enough momentum to penetrate going thru the skull to exit.., just rolling around the ol' brain bucket for 4 or 5 laps...., not alot of damage outside......, just soup really.., thats what I meant. musket and especially pistols were a pretty slow moving projo in the firearm world ., something like 30 to 40 grains on a brass .50 caliber queen anne doesnt have alot of muzzle velocity ..., what it does have is a good bit of mass and weight behind it. I guess my point is less muzzle velocity can be devistating .

[Capt. Sterling]

, without enough momentum to penetrate going thru the skull to exit..,

One would wonder about that, depending on exactly what type of pistol was used... Forensic scientists now say that Lincoln, shot in the back of the head and the ball coming to rest just behind his (left?) eye would MOST likely have been a vegetable due to the PATH the projectile took but it would not have turned his brain to mush or even necessarily killed him.. They now claim it was the brain swelling due to all the constant probing by the doctors that actually finished him.