Iraq

[Patrick Hand]

It started out as Opperation Iraqui Liberation..........

untill someone pointed out that spelled OIL...........

weapons of mass didtruction..... OK.... where are they............

And where is our cheap gas....?

someone lied the bush.............so that is treason....someone should hang (not Olly North kinda thing) but Hang by the neck untill they are dead...dead ...dead.......................(the price of treason... lying to the Commandrer in Chief........

bush is Comander in Chief of all our armed forces......

But the dude (bush) never served in the militayy...... (ok.... maybe a bit in the National Guard.... but he went AWOL from that....

So how can he send someone else to a war... when he wouldn't do it himself?

And what are we sending our guys there to fight for anyway ?

SO.. why are our guys dyien in a fucked up country?

What the hell are they fighting for..............?

Piece ... Prosperity.......The American way........WHAT!

I spent 4 years in the Army...(Carters Peacetime Army)..... If I had to go to WAR.... I would want to know why...... Our dudes dying over there desreve that much......Fuck OPEC.... and bushes oil friends....... our guys are dying for a sensless war....

Cool.... lets make the rich richer.... lets let our guys die... for the fucking rich (hey the swear word is more obscean then what is happining to them?)

The Soveiet Unon fell because People got tired of ther BS.... they saw it happen... not on TV but on the internet,,,, and they knew it was true........

Our government is messing up... and the only thing we can do is post our dissapointment...

But by posting our dissapointment in our government... or what we hoped it should be.........how else can we show the rest of the whould that we are not bad people.................

I am not a bad person.... I have no intention of taking anyone elses land from them...... I don't wanna get shot... and I don't wanna shoot anyone else.......

Fuck our governments... I think we whould all get along.....

SO..... can any one explaine why the US is in Iraq?

And why our guys are dying there?

Heck.... we won the war..... so why are they in an Iraqui religeous civil war?

[Rumba Rue]

I have been against this war from day one.

As far as I'm concerned, Bush should be impeached for lying to all of us.

He has done far worse things than other Presidents.

[Hetha]

the only good news..is Bush will be out the' door next year, not be re-elected..I never voted for him to begin with...

[Christine]

the only good news..is Bush will be out the' door next year, not be re-elected..I never voted for him to begin with...

Let's just hope that the next one in is not Hillary (b*tch) Clinton! I swear to God I'll figure out a way to live on the damn moon if she ever were to become President!

[Capt. Sterling]

For Christine...

Hillary Clinton was elected president. ON her first night living in the White House on her own, the ghost of President George Washington visited her. Recognizing the opertunity to perhaps learn something, Hillary asked the first President...."What do you think I should do to be a great president?"

Washinton answered, "Never Lie to the people."

Hillary responded, "Ouch, I don't know if I could do that."

The next night, the ghost of President Thomas Jefferson came to visit. Once again Hillary asked what could he tell her to help her be a better president.

Jefferson answered, "Always do what the people want."

Hillary scoffed and said, "You must be joking! I know better than anyone what needs to be done. No way will I listen to the people!"

The third night, the ghost of President Abraham Lincoln visited. Hillary asked him also, what could she do to be a good president and help her country.

Lincoln said..."GO TO THE THEATER!"

[Red-Handed Jill]

I'm not worried about Hilary for president. After eight years of Bush in the white house, my left buttock would do a better job as president.

I remember how outraged people got after Kerry's remark and I noticed these same people turned the other way when Bush joked about not finding WMD's in Iraq. He was caught on film, joking around, looking for WMD's in desk drawers and not finding any. He seemed to think that was really funny. Think about it - the idiot who decided to send our military over there to die by the thousands thought it was one big joke. If you're going to be outraged, be outraged about stuff that really merits it!

I could rant all day, but it would make me more outraged than I already am.

Although I've gotten much satisfaction today listening to the senate hearing for Gonzales. They are pulling no punches on this one, which is good.

[Ransom]

I can't look at a picture of Bush, or see his name in print, without having a strong desire to bang my head against a wall...really, really hard. The man is a nightmare.

That's all I can say, without getting nauseous. Or violent.

[LongTom]

Why are we there? Simple. Look at:

-- the stated aims of the cabinet: calling for US hegemony in the Middle East years before they were even elected (google "PNAC")

-- the actions taken by the Administration: utter falsehoods and shifting stories on practically every particular of the war, from WMDs to the cost to the duration

-- the outcome of those actions: perpetual war

-- who benefits from those outcomes: defense contractors, with perpetual orders to fill (google "Carlyle Group"); Halliburton as logistics provider in Iraq; oil companies manipulating the high price per barrel into record profits; Bush's Executive Branch, with excuses for emergency powers that offend the Constitution to its core

How can you come to any conclusion other than that the current disaster is exactly what Bush and Company wanted all along?

Not wanting to get into a fight about Hillary, but what could she possibly do to top Bush's crimes?

[Sir Eric]

Uh - oh... here we go.

This war WAS authorized by congress. I hate to tell ya... but it was voted on and approved.

Senate approves Iraq war resolution

Administration applauds vote

Friday, October 11, 2002 Posted: 12:35 PM EDT (1635 GMT)

"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In a major victory for the White House, the Senate early Friday voted 77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq if Saddam Hussein refuses to give up weapons of mass destruction as required by U.N. resolutions.

Hours earlier, the House approved an identical resolution, 296-133."

( http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/1.../10/11/iraq.us/ )

So explain again how this flies in the face of the constitution? Both the senate and the house APPROVED this war. So far, they haven't done didly-squat of much to stop it... even after the overwhelming shift back to the democratic party after the recent elections. If it's so unconstitutional, then why hasn't it been ended? Heck... a gay marraige can't last three years in this country without being declared unconstituional by somebody, and legal action taken against it. So why is this war still going on? Apparently because it's LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL.

Now, I ain't sayin' that makes it right. I'm against it myself... but that doesn't make me blind to the fact that this war was voted on and approved. I think it's horrible... but the fact remains that as far as the law of this nation is concerned, it is a proper military action with the documented support of ALL THREE branches of government. I'll entertain any primary evidence to the contrary.

It amazes me how you folks on these boards can argue the finest point when it comes to the exact number of buttons on a shirt three hundred years ago, and yet you allow propoganda to blind you to what has happened in the last five years of your own nation's history.

[Zephaniah W Nash]

Well, Eric, not to be argumentative, but I'll play Devil's (Congress'?) Advocate for a moment.

Firstly, even if they did vote to authorize war, they were lied to just as were the rest of the American people. Yes, they do have access to a lot more information than the rest of us do, but that does not change the fact that they were manipulated like everyone else.

Secondly, the authorization to go to war with Iraq was given as a last resort, to be tried if diplomacy and the new inspection regime failed. Neither diplomacy nor the inspections were given time to work, so what was meant as a last resort became a first resort.

Of course, those two points being the case, the authorization should have been rescinded as soon as we knew we were lied to, or impeachment procedures should have begun -- but, of course, there was not then, and is not now, enough of a Democratic majority for either to succeed.

So, to sum up, yes, Congress has some of the burden to bear here, but it still seems to me that the greatest fault lies squarely upon the Executive branch of gov't.

Just my thoughts, at any rate...

[Patrick Hand]

In a major victory for the White House, the Senate early Friday voted 77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq if Saddam Hussein refuses to give up weapons of mass destruction as required by U.N. resolutions

So where are the Weapons of Mass Destruction that we went to get ?

Isn't that why the Senate let bush attack Iraq?

Not that the Commander in Chief of the United States would ever lie to the Senate or anything......

We won the War....

We didn't find the Weapons of Mass Destruction....

We hung Hussein....

We achieved our goals.....

SO.... Why are we still there?

Why are our guys getting killed stuck in the middle of a religous war in Iraq?

[LongTom]

To respond to Sir Eric: the affronts to the Constitution that I had in mind were things like warrantless wiretapping, extraordinary rendition, and the ability of the Executive to strip you of all legal protection merely by denouncing you as an 'enemy combatant."

Trust us, we're the government. We would never abuse these powers. What? Oh, that? That was just a clerical error. Trust us.

[Caraccioli]

To respond to Sir Eric:  the affronts to the Constitution that I had in mind were things like warrantless wiretapping, extraordinary rendition, and the ability of the Executive to strip you of all legal protection merely by denouncing you as an 'enemy combatant." 

Trust us, we're the government.  We would never abuse these powers.  What? Oh, that? That was just a clerical error.  Trust us.

Yeah, that's about right. The whole homeland security thing is just creepy. And it happened under a Republican-lead House, Senate and President. This is not responsible governmental behavior. It increases the size and power of the government and it brings us a step closer to totalitarianism.

However, your comments on the constitution have nothing whatsoever to do with Sir Eric's point, Long Tom. He seems (to me) to be pointing out how the members of the government love to load up a bandwagon. (It reminds me of that slogan, "I'm their leader. Which way did they go?") The war was approved by all three branches of government, despite whatever fine points anyone presents to the contrary.

[LongTom]

Oh. I brought up the Constitution first, and he asked how his point was unconstitutional, so I thought he was responding to me, not the other way around; but never mind.

Your point about piling on is spot on. It is interesting to see various elected officials try to deal with the fact that they voted for this fiasco. Some are simply claiming they were misled, others are still squirming over rationalizing the outcomes, and a few are still spinning the same lies (Al qaeda again, Mr. Cheney?). But to my mind the run-up to the war and subsequent months was a classic example of what ought to be called the Hermann Goering Principle, after the famous quotation:

"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

Is that not exactly what happened?

[Caraccioli]

War is an arbitrary and capricious thing. It is built around instilling hatred in the opposing forces, sometimes against their better judgment.

Check out the fascinating and factually-based movie Joyeux Noel (although be prepared for subtitles.)

[Captain Jim]

For your perusal, the text of the resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq: Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq

For comparison, the text declaring war with Germany: The War Resolution

As for why we are still there, you can use either the “you broke it, you fix it” reason or the Br’er Rabbit/tar baby scenario, where once you engage you cannot disengage unless you do that which is seemingly unacceptable (get tossed in the briar patch.) For the story, see here.

[Caraccioli]

Further proof that there is too much governing going on in government! (I wonder what it cost us, per word, for them to write that Iraq resolution?)

When reviewing history, I found it interesting how contentious the United States' entry into World War 2 actually was.

A lot of people didn't want to see us get involved with the war. Some people thought (and some people still do think) that security was generally lax and that the relaying of messages between Pearl Harbor and the mainland was intentionally fouled up so that Roosevelt could galvanize the people in the US. (I personally think this is pretty far-fetched, but it is still interesting.) All this stuff you hear about a united US when it came to WWII is simply not true. But it makes for a nice (hi)story.

[LadyBarbossa]

:::shrugs:::

I usually try to stay out of this question. As I support the troops (nothing more).

But... I guess, what goes around, comes around...

didn't we supply Madass Insane (Saddam Hussein) with arms a quarter of a century ago so that they can battle against Iran and the Soviets?

Oil? ehhh. Didn't France benefit for years of cheap oil bein' buddies with Saddam?

WOMD? Ehhh... Who knows. Saddam was one of them. His mind blew us away. Remember the image of the camel with a SCUD coming out of it's back end during the first incident in '90?

Political? Ehh... Iran's not making it any easier for us to pull out soon. Nor are the Insurgents.

Cover-up for Afghanistan? Ehhh... So as not to pay too much for tsunami victims and Sudan problems?

Who knows exactly why.

It's not the first time America has put their nose into something for some stupid reason. Our history is littered with stupid stunts pulled off by presidents, politicans, and the American people.

We can't help it if we don't learn from our past mistakes.

But, I suppose... next time people go begging to the UN... the UN better listen to those exiled people and refugees. That way the US is not left to do the dirty work and get lots of people mad at US.

It's a multi-lane interstate of chaos the issue with Iraq. And God knows what will happen cause of it. Deal with issues now so it doesn't errupt into stupid issues like this later. One stupid thing we didn't do back 16 years ago when we had the chance to berid the world of the madass Saddam.

Now... here goes Sudan again. Sounds almost like Somalia and Afghanistan and other places.... doesn't it?

Notice a pattern?

Yeah... we don't learn.

Intelligent life?

Like hell we are!

I need a hammock, a good drink and Jimmy Buffett playing while enjoying a nice warm day.

Oh, and Sterling....

LOVE the Hilary C. Ghost Visitation joke... t'was fantastic!

One can only handle so much of her. She's ALWAYS visiting Iowa.

Caraccioli, Very true about the US during WWII. Concentration camps in our own boundries while we fought to free others in Europe. Twisted, mates... twisted.

~Lady B

[Rusty Barrels]

I voted against everyone that had oil money behind them. We're in this war because it's a national security issue, it's also said oil is a national security issue, need I say more. I guess Al Gore was right, Bush doesn't know crap about deplomacy.

[LadyBarbossa]

Al Gore doesn't know Diplomacy either! Th' dumbarse stood in a freakin' reactor left over from Chernobyl! Among other stupid stuff!

Was fun to have a family member who was a former Secret Service agent who was part of Gore's detail.

Diplomacy is politics. Politics is tact. And Tact is no more than sweetening a lie and butt kissin'!

I'm not good at tact.

Course... everything that George Washington said we SHOULDN'T do... well, was generally did since the day he blood well died!

~Lady B

[Patrick Hand]

I support the troops (nothing more).

Diplomacy is politics. Politics is tact. And Tact is no more than sweetening a lie and butt kissin'!

LadyBarbossa.. I'm not dissagreeing wiht you or picking on you.....

I also support our troops, and don't want then stuck in the middle of someone elses stinking religous war...... "Kill them all, let Alla sort 'em out." (Something like that was said durring the Vietnam war.... just a different God.....)

I always liked Andre Nortons quote from Starship Trooper....

"War is not just killing and distruction pure and simple... War is killing and dirtruction with a pourpose... The Pourpose of war is to enforce your country's policys with force...." (or somethnig very close to that...)

SO what is our country's policy? why are we still there after kicking thier butts?.... just to get stuck in thier religious war.....?

If we just went there to get rid of Weapons of Mass destruction...... hey we did that...... well they aren't there.....

If we want the oil fields.... why are we still in Bagdad ? (and where is the cheaper gas our guys are dying for? )

Someone is making big bucks off our guys dying.... If anyone supports our troops..... let them do thier job... then let them go home.....

We won the war..... Peace in Iraq..... no way... But that is not our problem.......

[Matusalem]

Geez, Patrick...who supports the war?....really? A couple of farmers from square-shaped states? A couple of frat-boy golfing buddies? God-Fearing republicans from Texas? Who cares about them! This war cannot end. We increase troops, the problem goes away in the short run and comes right back to the way it was before...ad infinitum. Was that the discussion in Fall 2003? No.

If you want to get a gist of where things are at, go to www.wonkette.com and get a good laugh about it. At least I go to bed with a chuckle.

[HarborMaster]

Please let me clarify before my rant., I look up to and admire many here., I am tying to offend no-one....., but this topic I am sure is a hottie for many., and opinions I am sure vary widely.

So please take no offense.

I tried to stay out of this one too...., but here it goes.

Ever heard of the great crusades ? This is an ideallogical believe that if you arent Islamic ., your an infidel. Its been going on for 1000 years. Islam was started in Iraq and Saudi is the home to Mecca , Now Islam spans 1/2 the globe....., its like siphillis......., and its not going away...., no-one actually has the balls to tell it like it is...., then go kill it.

Our guys are dying you bet. and they are dying at an exetremely slow rate., even at this point its pure success. Tell me of a war with less death at anytime in history. How many did die in WWII ., shoot everyone talks about Hitler killing Jews., are you folks aware the Russian death toll was much much higher than that. I am sorry but 3000+ is nothing for a war., The Iraq war is nothing in terms of US deaths for a war...., 3000 + isnt even an engagement on a south pacific island somewhere fighting Hirohitos Imperial troops..

And who ever came up with these stupid rules about precision bombing and being careful......, we did..., how dumb........, we tied our own hands., we kicked arse in WWII ., today we gotta be careful., geez. Its a joke. And another thing if the media was bad mouthing D-Day do you think Pelosi and Reid would be crying "I give up" you bet they would...., does anyone think the media would have help or hurt WWII Tarawa . Guadalcanal or Berlin ? No. They would have lost that war., Imbedding a bleeding heart really isnt helping.

The Generals should run this., the media should stay home and our Military should get free rein to do the job......., then get out....., what ever it takes...., I dont want another US ., Vietnam embarrassment., when the commies chased us off the rooftop of our Embassy in Saigon........, Now John Murtha is gonna let Iraq fold fo Iran., and Al Quida?

Shoot Man.., kick ass and take names., what the sam hell am I buying F-22 Raptors for., and secret shit no one ever heard about at bases that dont exist....., if we arent going to let the Military do its job....., why are we tying there hands.?

This is 1973 and its BULLSH@T.

*Sigh* you know we are winners.., but due to Politics we are losers....., and the World Knows It ..., I am embarrassed We abanoned the Cubans., we went on to abandon Vietnam., and if push comes to shove we will abandon Taiwan., and So. Korea too............, Why ?

I know our force is Kick ass., Geezus we got some neat sh%t ., ever seen a carrier group? green berets? Seals..., Marines......, our politicians should quit lettein these guys down........., I am waiting for the military to voice its opinion.., but it wont dissent........., after all there the good guys....., and they are 2.., and everyone knows it.

I 'm upset now..., got me all worked up here..., I need to go fire a 1" bore signal cannon to let off some steam.

On with the mission !

[Morgan Dreadlocke]

(and where is the cheaper gas our guys are dying for? )

It's bein' sold ta China. Unconstrained by any environmental concerns they be free ta expand oil consumin' industries and, under the flak screen produced by left wing agendists, are free ta rape the north of Africa. Strange how the news media be reportin' every casualty, military or civilian in Iraq, yet is silent on the millions what be slaughtered in Sudan simply cause they be livin' on the oil fields. The very same UN members who be opposin' US intervention in Iraq be the same that are feedin' in the oil trough in Africa. Therefore ye can side wi' the pubbies an be responsible fer Iraq, or ye can side wi' the crats an be supportin' genocide in Sudan. If ye be a consumer there ain't no middle ground. If ye be thinkin' either side be free 'o oil influence ya need ta be educatin' yerself on 21st century oil grabbin'.

It be a choice o' pickin' up a shytey turd by the cleanest end

The question ye should be worryin' about be- what you gonna do when the UN decides ta divy up US oil fields in Ca/Tx/Ak? Your political canadate gonna side wi' you an yer interests or sell you out ta the highest bidder?

[HarborMaster]

Strange how the news media be reportin' every casualty, military or civilian in Iraq, yet is silent on the millions what be slaughtered in Sudan simply cause they be livin' on the oil fields. The very same UN members who be opposin' US intervention in Iraq be the same that are feedin' in the oil trough in Africa. Therefore ye can side wi' the pubbies an be responsible fer Iraq, or ye can side wi' the crats an be supportin' genocide in Sudan. If ye be a consumer there ain't no middle ground. If ye be thinkin' either side be free 'o oil influence ya need ta be educatin' yerself on 21st century oil grabbin'.

you bet the MEDIA is keepin quite on Africa....., and just exacly who is doing the killing in Africa?..., Thats right......, MUSLIMS.

Wheres Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton when the brothers in Africa are dying....,? Oh yea thats right...., theyre atfer reparations from you and me.... No one is helping Africa. We should send the UN home., and rent out the building as xondos as a way to try to recoop some tax dollars....., I miss the days when our word ment something., to our friends.., our foes.., and our selves.