Mens Undergarmens

[Jack Roberts]

Is there any peroid underwear? Was it just the breeches and skin?

[CaptainSatan]

Actually there was. From the Dark Ages until the begining of the 20th century under garments were washed a lot more often than outer clothing.

Smoke & Fire sells some generic 18th century mens underpants.There are also patterns available, and even books on the history of underwear.

One account of how Calico Jack got his name was his alleged fondness for calico undergarments.

-CS

[CrazyCholeBlack]

There were, they were called drawers. Slop contracts specify them. If I recall correctly they were slightly longer than the breeches in the contracts & with drawstrings at the waist and legs.

[blackjohn]

Dutch captain with striped drawers.

[kass]

There are plentiful references to drawers being worn by sailors in the GAoP. They're in the Slop Contracts, in inventories, wills, et cetera.

However, there are also plentiful references to men tucking their long shirttails between their legs and going without drawers. So they certainly were far from a universally-worn garment in the 18th century. And the assertion that there is some kind of unbroken line of skivvies from the Dark Ages until the Victorian period is flawed. But I'm not going to get outside the GAoP in this thread.

Chole, one Slop Contract reference to drawers says they were longer than the breeches in the same document. That doesn't mean they all were. Besides, that contract dates to 1731, which is post-GAoP. Interestingly enough, the 1739 Slop Contract doesn't specify length for drawers at all. Neither does the 1725 SlopContract...

The Slop Contracts also say nothing whatsoever about drawstrings. It says they have "good strings" at the waist and knees. This is taken to mean they were tied by strings instead of buttons, not that they were gathered with a drawstring. This is the full quote from the 1724 Slop Contract:

Drawers of blue and white checkered linen, or Trousers made with canvas . . . 1s. 10d.

This and the picture John posted of the striped drawers supports the idea that drawers were certainly not always all white.

Smoke and Fire's drawers are based on some commissioned by Thomas Jefferson from his tailor, I believe. They are decidedly late 18th century.

[CaptainSatan]

And the assertion that there is some kind of unbroken line of skivvies from the Dark Ages until the Victorian period is flawed. 

I don't recall asserting that there was an unbroken line of mens underwear.

The question was "Is there any peroid underwear"? The answers is yes there certainly was. Mens under garments can ALSO be documented 100s of years prior to the GAoP. I don't believe there was any implication that everyone actually wore undies.

-CS

[CaptainSatan]

Smoke and Fire's drawers are based on some commissioned by Thomas Jefferson from his tailor, I believe.  They are decidedly late 18th century.

They are based on examples from the late 18th century, yes. They are also very similar to examples depicted in late 17th century, and early 18th century art. Hence the term "generic 18th century mens underpants". In my previous post.

-CS

[Tartan Jack]

And the assertion that there is some kind of unbroken line of skivvies from the Dark Ages until the Victorian period is flawed. 

I don't recall asserting that there was an unbroken line of mens underwear.

The question was "Is there any peroid underwear"? The answers is yes there certainly was. Mens under garments can ALSO be documented 100s of years prior to the GAoP. I don't believe there was any implication that everyone actually wore undies.

-CS

What??????

Undies???????

With my kilt????????????

OH, THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!!

Back to topic . . .

Yes, undies are well documented and didn't change very rapidly.

I'd have to defer to experts to the approximate dates of the shifts that did happen. Even then, for significant periods there was overlap and usually several types going at the same time.

For more "athletic" endevors, there was usually a tighter variation for men to "hold everything together." To cite the Old Testament, it was termed to "gird your loins," which kept anything from getting pulled in more "energetic" actions.

Think modern "boxers" and "briefs"/"strap" (but forget the cup, I don't remember any precuser for that (though one may have existed after all).

Things always seem SO much simpler kilted . . .

,

[Patrick Hand]

Without gettting into some of the "interesting " undies worn durring the Middle Ages...

Basicaly from what I can figure out... period Drawers were kinda an extra linning fer your breaches....

A bit latter backwoods Americans, kind "tucked: thier shirttails in to make undies.... (a buncha bad period jokes about that one...icky shirt tails and such.......)

SO the best I can figure out.... we get more English documintation about them... they wore drawers.... (hye... we were still English at the time...) than we get from a bit latter period, American stuff....

Ya gotta remember..... talking about your undies was just as emberising back then as it is now......so we don't get a lot of documentation about it....

Best I can figure.... is they are cut almost the same (well a little looser) than the breaches......

They are/were just easier to waRsh.........

[Jack Roberts]

Ya gotta remember..... talking about your undies was just as emberising back then as it is now......so we don't get a lot of documentation about it....

Whoops... (in a whisper) was I not suposed to talk about this?

Well, I might just have to make a pair or 2 for meself. I guess linen would be the fabric of choice? Then at PiP I can go running around in my drawers.

Well maybe not, but at least i'll have period underwear.

[kass]

Linen's definitely the right stuff for drawers, Jack (although I do have references to them being made out of kersey and cottoned wool!).

Linen is great. The more you wash it, the softer it becomes. Once you make linen drawers, you'll never go back...

[Ol Man From the Sea]

with drawstrings at the waist and legs.

I am not sure what was done back then, but I can tell you from experience, draw strings and pyratin' don't mix. Here is the drill

remove baldrick and hanger

remove haversack

remove every thing you now regret tucking into your belt/sash

remove said belt/sash

remove waistecoat

lower breeches/slops, but don't let them touch the floor (yuck)

raise shirt tails

fiddle with draw strings while holding up shirt tails and keeping breeches off the floor

If you have made it this far you can now, ah um oh ya

deposit that beer you rented a while ago

retie drawstrings still holding up shirt tails and keeping slops off the floor

lower shirt tails

raise slops

retrieve and replace all that was removed, hope you found a safe place for all of it between the removin' and replacin'

The question is when, not if, will the drawers go MIA

The point is weather period or not, put a fly in dem dare drawers.

Ya I guess you could do a fly and drawstrings, but who would think too?

[kass]

Old Man, you're not wrong. We find very few examples of drawstrings in the historical record -- probably for exactly the reasons you describe.

Modern costumers (like the people who design costumes for the Ren Faires) use drawstrings because they allow people of many different sizes to wear the same garment.

Period seamstresses and tailors made clothing that had to function properly. They used buttons and ties and other fasteners. But I don't think I've ever seen a drawstring used as a waistband -- except for an apron

As for flies in drawers, we believe they were used. They weren't buttoned up though. Just open like in a modern pair of boxers.

Pat, what you say about drawers being like "lining for your breeches" is pretty close to the mark, I think. Of course we don't have a ton of extant drawers because they tend to get dirty and worn out and thrown away. But the ones that survive (and the ones we can see in naughty pictures...) look just like narrower, shorter breeches tied with tapes (strings) at waist and knee (and sometimes not knee).

But the wearing of drawers was far from universal -- much like today, really. :)

[Tartan Jack]

In regards to the fly, a common associate of Kass and mine has noted a "fly" in a kilt. (I'm not sure how that is much easier than simply "lifting the kilt" to do your "standing business" or your "horizontal" business).

I'll see if I can find the link to the fly kilt.

[Tar Bucket Bill]

Who then sells a pattern for drawers of the early 1700s period?

Tar Bucket Bill

[kass]

I do. It's in this one:

Sailor's Breeches and Slops

[Tar Bucket Bill]

GREAT!!!!!!!!

I just bought THAT pattern package at Reenactor Fest in Chicago. I did not realize that a drawers pattern were included within. Haven't read the contents yet though.

-Tar Bucket Bill

[kass]

Yup. It's marked on the pattern pieces where to cut for drawers.

So we've met you then? That was us selling at Reenactor Fest.

[Tar Bucket Bill]

Yes, I met a few people at your booth, but not you. Perhaps another time.

I asked what the level of difficulty was in sewing the breeches from your pattern. I was told it's so easy a monkey could do it. I don't think I'm that high yet on the primate scale when it comes to sewing though.

I'll probably have a lot of questions as I try to tackle making some drawers, breeches and trousers from your pattern. I hope to mostly properly hand sew the articles, so I will want to use the correct hand stitches and so forth. And just know this forum is here helps quite a bit. I've seen some discussions regarding the sewing of some of your patterns.

-Tar Bucket Bill

[kass]

Yeah. If Bob and Foxe can make 'em, anyone can.

Always feel free to email or PM me, Bill. That's what I'm here for.

[Fox]

What can I say except ?