Captain Pogue

Happy B-Day Michael

Canadian, eh I've known my share of Canadians, but I won't hold it against it ya

Happy B-Day and smooth sailing

Darkwood Armory has a new Clamshell Cutlass...

He also does custom work although I've don't know how extensive but one can always ask.

Darkwood Armory

No worries Capt., your making sense. I'm just trying to get a good sense of women/firearms/ and the stuff related to hunting that women would carry. I understand what your saying about a woman carrying a gun. That was the age of the weaker sex and they'd probably have a servant tag along to do all of the carrying. Especially if they shot something. I'm just trying to dig deeper and get as much as I can out of the topic of the thread. I'd love to make a hunting bag that would befit a lady, just need ot know what they looked like

I was thinking more of along the lines of travelling thru port or aboard a ship, carrying a gun would be for protection. Beinging a lady a fowling piece seemed natural, if she enjoyed hunting. Due to circumstances not being able to bring a trusted servant...

Pogue

That is an awesome website...

I'm a bit confused, it may be from me using "hunting" a bit too much. She's getting a riding habit, which was used for travel as well as hunting, fashionable undress. Am I off on that? Your remark about walking around port dressed in hunting attire concerns me that I've got some incorrect assumptions about a riding habit. Unless your thinking of something else other than a riding habit, or a riding habit with all of the hunting equipment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Pirates are able to walk around port with guns, is it my 21st century mentality that keeps getting in the way?

I can't argue about the gun issue at port, just trying to get a good grasp on period ettiquette for women and guns. As well as an idea if there was specific hunting gear for women. Would it have been odd to see a woman that was out hunting carrying her own gun? Or a woman that liked hunting? Was there no concern for women's hunting gear because only women of a certain status went hunting and those women had a gun caddy(servant/valet)? Just trying to stay on topic about a Lady's things, in regards to hunting.

Granted, it all boils down to what event one is attending.

Thanks,

Pogue

There a bit later than GAoP, seeing how the artist John Collert wasn't born until 1925, so I'm not sure if they apply. A powder horn is visible in the second image.

Lady Mary Chruchhill at the Killing of the Hare

So, Ilanah is looking for any and all period "do-dads" that a lady might have. The info Capt. Sterling is throwing out will be most useful. The more stuff that comes to light the more choices.

But I'm going stick my finger in the stew so to speak and get a bit more specific. The good Capt. said to ditch the gun for my wife. I was wondering why? Women had specific clothes to go out hunting, did they not "hunt" or were they more of minding the picnic? I would think that they actually got around to shooting at something.

So within the set of "A Lady's things" what would she wear if she were and possess while hunting? I've seen hunting bags, but none really geared towards women. Were Ladies allowed to shoot guns? What kind of things would they take hunting with them?

Anyone seen anything that might help out?

Thanks,

Pogue

Actually, I am confused. You've got the accessories for ladies down, are you looking for more input as to what a woman of your station would have?

I whole heartedly agree about about accessories making the outfit :angry:

My wife thought this might be link might be useful.

1700s Rococo

Oh, and welcome,

Pogue

Capt. Sterling, your link for "The Art of Charming 1697" seems to be a bit off...

Pretty obvious about the gun, huh???

I was thinking a servant would be good... adoption is a bit pricey though...

A Lady has to protect herself when she's amongst pirates and all that.

mmm, buns! Are they hot?

Generally speaking you should never generalize and that's what I was doing. I think I tend toward the term wench because of something Cpt. Sterling pointed out about occupations. You've probably seen this too Michael with your gf. What woman wants to be a hat seller, or sell flowers while their significant other gets to be a pirate?

I'd still use wench, despite your objections Michael, but only so far as to categorize a generic woman. And one that would associate with pirates, not necessarily a lower-class upstanding woman. I'll make sure to not throw the word around too loosely in the pub though, I understand some of the issues when dealing with an so regarding historically accurate issues like this.

I think women that don't want to dress like a man kinda get the short end of the stick when it comes to what they can dress like. Piracy, along with the rest of the world, was so male dominated that we have to break from historical accuracy at some point to be able to include the women in our lives it seems. Especially, in some fashion that they would truly enjoy.

My wife is going for a riding habit. I keep telling her to get a fowler. That seems to be the most likely weapon a lady wearing a riding habit would have. Did ladies go hunting back then, and do more than hang out while the boys went shooting at things? Are there any good images of ladies hunting and what stuff they might have?

No worries,

Pogue

Michael,

I don't have much to offer, I'm working with my wife on her period clothes. I'd be interested in having some distinction on this subject between common women of the time and ladies. My wife doesn't want to be a wench

Pogue

I see, the back edge of the button-hole side is folded towards the front. I wonder what that's about?

Pogue

Top of gaiters folded back? I'm not seeing what your looking at.

Love the fancy pocket though, that's class!

Pogue

Bradley - Broad Meadow

Christopher - Comes from Christopher Robins from Winnie the Pooh

I like spelling Brad in kanji better though, you can get Way of the Naked Warrior

If my brother were my sister he would have been named Winiferd, my mom liked Winnine the Pooh. Crazy old bird

There is always this, if it's not in here it might point you in the right direction...

Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website

Here is a case (gin) bottle right after the GAoP, according to the current owner. It was blown not molded...

Ebay gin bottle

Towards the bottom of the page is a guy selling a bunch of "rare" gin bottles. They look kind of cool...

Ebay Gin bottle auctions

Don't know if this is helpful at all, probably not... nevermind

Actually I came across some references to some antique bottle clubs, they might have some answers. I'd say something about how weird of a hobby collecting antique bottles is... but for some reason I feel I should refrain...

Mr. Kettle signing off

Yeah, I was talking about Maddogge... caught a picture of in the dress somewhere. He truly is a vision

That seems to make sense now. I had come across the term "bodice gown" just a little while ago on the net. I was wondering if that's what the image was of...

Yeah, I'm calling the chemise a shift, bad Pogue! I should know better when it comes to a lady's under garments

Thanks!

Pogue

Mary, thanks for the pics and the suggestion on Mantua. I've never really paid that much attention to Cheeky Actresses' outfit in the past, I figure one pirate in a dress is enough. At least according to the rumors from PiP

I guess I was lumping the fancy mantuas in with the riding outfits and assuming mantuas were for the common women. We all know what that means.

This opens up more possibilities.

The pic dated 1718 above almost looks like a mantua/shift combo. I read that the mantuas are pinned to the shift, but that doesn't look like the other pics. Any clarification on that one?

Thanks!

Pogue

All of you ladies look wonderful!

My wife really wants to stay away from outfits like Silkie's and Bess's. Nothing against their outfits one bit, my wife just wants to look fancy and all. Cost isn't that much of a concern so much as making the right choice first off. We've bought several things at the beginning of this adventure that I wish I had just waited a bit longer or had found the pub...

All of your input and comments have helped us to feel better about going with a riding habit for her. My main concern was really having her look out of sort amongst a bunch of pirates. I think we can pull it off if we are careful about what I wear to accompany her.

Several of you mentioned temperature as a concern, I'd have to agree. Since living in Texas and attending some of the Ren Fests down here she'd be nuts to dress up in a full riding habit...

With that I have a question about the riding habits. Being male and living in the 21st century I can think of clothing in layers. Do the riding habits function like that? If it's too hot you can take the frock coat off, and not look too off? Might not look as fancied up, plus the whole stigma about appearing underdressed, but she'd still look decent. Would any of you ladys have any picture of the riding habit without a frock coat possibley?

I think the hard part is really not knowing a lot of the ettiquette for women's wear in the GAoP. I've looked over the Twill thread for women's wear and it's a bit thin when compared to the other Twill clothing threads. Any help pointing us in the right direction to do a bit more research would be great too.

Thank you all so much for contributing on this, it's important to for my wife to be able to share this with me. Even if she can't just look pretty and be my wench

Thanks,

Pogue

Thanks all for the info! You've given me some good leads to look into and a glimmer of hope that my wife won't have to spend her hard-earned cash on an outfit that she doesn't really care for. When momma's not happy, nobody is...

Thanks mates,

Pogue

I've got a bit of a problem. Wy wife wants to dress more historically accurate but she doesn't care too much for the basic wench outfit; shift, stay, and skirt.

I had to mop up the drool after she saw Kass's pic/pattern for the Lady's Riding Habit. Not to mention the red velvet number Marianne wore in Brotherhood of the Wolf I know it's not exactly accurate, but she still liked it.

We've been discussing this today and she is getting a bit frustrated. She doesn't want to invest in a common woman's outfit if it isn't something that she even likes. We've discussed maybe dressing her as a sailor to provide an inexpensive way of being historically accurate. But, she'd rather dress like a woman, funny that.

What are the options for women to dress above being just a commoner or shopkeeper?

Patrick Hand - The well dressed Wench, Female clothing for 1680-1725

- May 28 2005

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few "respectable" ladys that would have had contact with pyrates......... but the majority of women that had anything to do with Pyrates were..... aaaaaah...... well..... wenches and harlots......

Any help or suggestions on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Pogue

I've got the following for an update on this post. Black John pointed me to one of the Baltimore Rangers and he supplied me with the following. All the credit goes to the Ranger for the three years of work he did researching leggings. If anybody wants to track down the first hand references and see some great kits check out the Oldton's Company of Baltemore Rangers.

Thanks to the Commander and Black John:huh:

Pogue

>  What we found was that leggings were not commonly

> worn day-to-day or even

> by the foot soldiers of the time.  It appears that

> leggings of all sorts

> were worn only by those who rode horses and could

> not afford, or chose not

> to wear, boots. The foot-soldiers did not begin to

> wear leggings until the

> 1730's as can be demonstrated in various paintings

> and woodcuts dating from

> 1690-1750. 

>

>  Another interesting thing about the leggings worn

> at the time is that not

> only did they replace the boots, but they were made

> to look similar to

> boots.  The leggings that we wear in our unit even

> have a slight 'bucket' at

> the top.

  It describes three types of leggings available during the period in question, to include leather ones.

  Something I failed to mention in my initial reply.  Avoid the

introduction of native styles to your English kit unless you are

specifically doing something from one of the Massachusetts at which

point

you could wear moccasins.  Prior to the 1720's the English appear to

have

actively avoided the introduction of 'savage' styles in their clothing.

This is important when thinking of cockers (leather leggings).  Of

course by

the 1750's this was no longer the case as can be seen with Rogers

Rangers.

  As to your question about metal vs bone(buttons).  I have not seen an original

pair

but paintings and tapestries of men in the leggings show them in good

detail, and they are metal.

  I also made an incorrect statement in my first e-mail.  Leggings were

being worn by infantry as early as 1710.  The Duke of Marlborough

ordered

all regiments of foote to have them in 1710, even the duke wore then

instead

of boots.

I loved PotC and DMC. I really like AWE, but I feel let down. It's the same feeling I got when I saw Star Wars I-III. You had how many years to work on this, improve your ideas, listen to fans, and read stuff other people were putting out there and you give us JarJar...

Same feeling with AWE. I recall that the scriptwas being developed as they were casting and filming it showed. I thought DMC went along nicely. We got to see witty Jack at his best on cannibal island. We saw a good fight scene on Tortuga and Isle Cruise(sp?). It was a bit over the top with the water wheel, but it was fun. We got exposed to some of Jack's past with Tia Dolma. Through her we saw some magic and mystery in the world. Awesome bad guys that really pose a threat.

As for AWE, I think the it's problem was quantity over quality. Sure those little quiches are tasty, and you can eat an entire tray but you still want a steak and potato for dinner. The only fight scene I can remember is the maelstrom, it was good and climatic and all. But, little quiche... The kraken, the big baddie in DMC is killed off with one sentence... They show it later to add impact to Jack and Hector's exchange, and to give Pintel and Reggati some lines... Shipwreck island, cool idea! It's a shame they didn't have Beckett's force invade and have a fight scene there, once again little quiche... Captain Teague. Yeah it's cool and all that Keith Richards was the inspiration for Jack and he got to play his dad. But an actor and some more background would have been awesome. By now the patteren is established. There was so many things that were dangled in front of us that we didn't get to fully experience.

As for the characters in AWE, they were overwhelmed by the action instead of providing us an in to what was happening. Jack, got shafted in AWE. He was so quirky in the first two, I don't remember any scene in AWE that brought back that same sense of, I wanted to be Jack.

Will Turner turned into a robot. Must save father, love of my life... girl issues... nah I'm going to focus on my father who left me a long time ago. If he was going to be so driven, have him dump Elizabeth. After seeing all the issues those two had I was hoping they wouldn't get married... good thing they only see each other every ten years or they would have to go to counseling to resolve those issues. I didn't have any empathy for them as a couple anymore. It was one thing when Elizabeth was hiding what she did from Will, but it just went downhill.

Elizabeth, was a plot device and some nice eye candy. Can't think of anything else.

Hector by god was good. He was able to break out of the bad guy role and be his own person. I've always felt that interesting characters are more fun to watch than cool characters. Maybe that's what happened to Jack, he became cool and lost his fun-ness.

Norrington was there to what tie up some loose ends, add some emotion to the story...

Davy Jones, got his tadpoles snipped by Beckett. I loved Davy Jones, Bill Nighy was awesome and he was enjoyable to watch in DMC. In AWE he was an angry child. Instead of a having a range of emtion he is limited to being pissy...

Beckett, oh Beckett. I was more fearful of Mr. Colins from Pride and Predjudice. Not the one mind you with the Beckett actor but the mini-series. No if he was running the EIT Co., that would have been something to truly fear... He had a past with Jack, what the hell happened to that?

Too many ideas and not enough time. The story had to be pulled at such a quick speed that it didn't have enough time for the characters to shine like they had been able to in previous movies.

That's my 2... 10, er I'll get a calculator and post it later

I've come across some vinegar bottles in the grocery store that have longer necks but the same shape that I thought would be good. I didn't know how much of a headache it would be to grind down the threaded area. There is even an expensive vinegar bottle that's kinda a flattened onion bottle shape.

What did you use to grind it down?

Thanks,

Pogue

I've clicked on links here and there and I've yet to find any kind of schedule about what cities they will be hitting next. I'm sure somebody has come across it before, any help here would be great.

Thanks,

Pogue