Monsignor Fitzwell

I have run through every free archive I can come accross and have yet to see where anyone list it's carriage weight, most are listed for the gun itself, and many claim that is a debateable figure between different manufacturers. I have run into a few promising archives but they want money to enter and look around. Probably a national archive, or calling up a museum that has a ship on display could get that kind of info Good Luck

was wondering if the humor would be seen in that actually I could see the arguement in a repro barrel, like metal having had been improved in alloy and all, so that a steel, iron, or bronze, etc used in the day woul not neesary weigh the same today, but if you build a repo carriage to spec the only varible I could see is the iron of the hardware. you can buy repro carriges from the repo companies that are taken from actual cannon, Like all models, one can find ones that are bad examples or good examples, The reason I posted the first post was to give a aproximate to begin with. we solve problems by having somewhere to begin with, we get nowhere by complaining about where to strat. You want a starting point, I gave one. I never saw a guy throw away a dinosaurs head and shoulders because it was not the entire dinosaur. usually they repro the rest.

Point well taken I guess my pooper hole is not screwed on so tight that I would not be able to accept anything but the real thing, and that anything but that is to be scoffed at

maybe a check from one of the manufacturers of repli cannon they seel cannon, carriage and complete checking shipping weight would give you an idea of ratio then using a mutiplier to size up to full size( alot of those replicas are 5/8 or 1/2 size) you could figure it out please post results if you get some, a interesting idea you have

There again a different reference, aording to the link you give, port royal was 50 acres and all that was left was 25, so that menas 50 percent was destroyed I fear that we will never know the exact amount, I conservatively say 50 percent even though I hav a source saying 66 percent. Oh well History is written by the victor, and such as it is, his opinion is often recorded as fact, Sad but true. another thing about watches man who has 1 watch know exactly what time it is man with 2 is never quite sure amazing that xraying a watch can tell you the time it stopped at, not the time of a event, tell me if I drop a watch into the water, will it stop at that second? or run till it either unwinds or something happens to it?

Shortly before noon on 7 June 1692, 33 acres (66 percent) of the "storehouse and treasury of the West Indies" sank into Kingston Harbor in a disastrous earthquake. An estimated 2000 persons were killed in an instant. An additional 3000 citizens died of injuries and disease in the following days (Pawson and Buisseret 1975:121). I see it as different souces giving different amounts Yes they do discribe it as a place where they were hungrey for money, but its heyday was over places like New Providence, Petite Groave and others offered a much more friendly base for them and they went to those places and if your dock area, which is your daily businees dissapears, going about that is kinda hard

well this discussion we have been having has gotten me to delve into a study I have not done before, as mentioned two direct lines have been going on, local or international influence and Port Royals history, as stated I beleive Foxe has out argued me and shows a better arguement about influence, My har is off to him, and now I have some intersting findings about Port Royal, Not tt get off subject about weather the mood was pro or anti pirate it seems that since 1692 and the earthquakes that sunk over 50 percent of the city, a few other ntable disasters hit the port before the end of the GAoP. 1703 the town was devasteded by a huge fire 1712 it was smashed and crippled by a huge hurricane and in 1722 2 earthquakes and a hurricane hit it, leaving its economic future to become the fishing village it is today. I am currently looking for a good volumne of Jamaican history that features the cities political enviroment of the era as a background for future study of the area.

Ok. lets defined well travelled, or localized What I am saying is that they usually raided a localized area, and based in that area, The area that they were raidng, and selling the pluder was the area of the influence of their apperance. such as, you need a new scarf, yours is filthy from 6 months of use, you are raiding the waest african coast, would not the material you choose be from that area? your shoes go bad, you are raiding around madagascar, would not the shoes you aquire be localized in nature? I see what you are saying, that many pirates, especially famous pirates sailed long distances to get to a area where they have, freindly harbor, profitable shipping lanes, weather in season benefiting them, and more. I concede to what you are saying. What I am saying, for every ship that made it from the atlantic to the indian ocean, many did not make it more than 500 miles from a staging area, and that if they did, it may have been in several seasons. I agree that many pirates came from sailors that had travelled with the tea trade, others the spice trade, etc. A seamans chest is not large and the seaman carried most of what he owned in it, before going rouge the seamans belongings interfere with cargo space, so if I pick up enough goods for myself and my captain" lets" me take hem back to England, will my next captain let me carry extra baggage on the next trip out? or do I leave it with family untill I return? I think I leave it. Now I go out with this captain and he is a tyrant, several of the crew with myself mutiny and we turn pirate. (sound familar), I cannot go back to port to collect my gains from my last few trips, the authorities would hang me for mutiny when the captain and officers did not come back with me. So I have,humm, whats in my seamans chest. Now remember many a pirate never got to sail internationally after turning rouge, they sailed to a certain area and stayed there, using this LOCALITY as thier influence. That is my arguement, I say what is local around them the pick up what is exotic in england may not be exotic in Madasgascar, what is exotic in madisgascar would not be exotic in the Carribbean if it derived from the carribean. To add to this, clothing was functional, so it was just a matter of time till it was replaced with something from the area, if you are raiding for 6 months, you would aquire from that locality more than if you sailed past it going from China to England. If you are raiding east africa, you are far more likely to port in Madasgascar than London, A local area. So I think the influence is more local Now about exotic Booty, that would be kept untill spending time came around, in these days a jewel, or trinket, or statue could be used as money, So we are lucky enough to have caprured a ship with "treasure" and we are nearing a port so the captain devides it amoung the crew, you take 2 opal carvings and stick them in your trunk, hang that ruby on a gold chain and wear it, put 12 gold coins in your purse and go out on a binge in Port Royal, after satisfying urges at the local cat house, buying a barrell of wine, partying in 7 taverns you get back to ship and inventory, 1 gold coin, no ruby, but wilma was fine and 2 opal statues and a safire ring you traded for. Captain is still busy selling the 31 barrells of spanish wine and other booty you salvaged on the last raid so you take one of the carvings to trade for more good times. when returning to the ship to sail, you are given 3 gold coins for the cargo and you are off. 1 opal carving, i saphire ring 4 gold coins a bolt of silk purchased. That would be exotic for any sailor, no matter if he was in England, China, Florida or Boston. Let me end with this, Yes Many Pirates sailed internationally, I see what you are saying, I was refering to localized Raiding. I will point out that many pirates, After turning Pirate, raided and accepted pardons many never survived their first raiding season, a vast amount never had anyone on the crew that had the skills to sail internationally I take your point and accept it. I also accept the point, And a good point I moght add, that I may be refering to local as a vast area in its day. after all, as I may consider the east coast of africa easily travelled today, you point out in the day it was quite a chore. One of the things about history is we need to throw out modern thought and see it thru the eyes of the day, I stand corrected.

actually the number hanged is smaller than those tried usually a few were pardoned and also, I have to admit, one of those groups was shipwrecked, not chased down and captured other authous list names or ships captured by other countries, such as German Arcineigas, A spanish author who wrote a few history books about the Carribbian, One that has been Translated to english does not mention pirates to much, but one of his I found in Seville, published in spanish listed quite a few names and boats the spaniards captured and tried as pirates. and I am sure the french can make quite a list also. I do not doubt anyones sources, however I do wonder how you apply it. I have a freind who can name the ships and everyone on them down to the bilge rats, however he cannot apply this knowledge to make a good historical arguement. Now in giant earthquake hits a city, wipes out its docks, that it depends on for commerce, Merchants move across a harbor to a place they can do business, because of a strong fort a big rebuliding plan is taken on and we rebuild the city with new docks. However our citizens are now less tolerant of the lawlessness, as is the government, we now have a policy growing not to invite Pirates. The crown is sending ships to protect us fromthe spanish, and they now see that the pirates are no longer just preying on the spanish but english ships as well. Plus peace has broken out with spain and we need not to have english ships pirateing on them. so we start to send ships to hunt pirates. pirates move to other haunts fill in dates and names as you see fit. THe golden age of piracy was during these times. I agree, Now calling a squadren of ships ineffectual, that is an opinion expressed. The ships proved their effectiveness, but what kept them from a speedy job was the geography of the area in both the number of islands and bays to hide in , the pirates local knowledge and english captains lack of it,and the Political geography of how many of these isle belonged to other countries. Are we disagreeeing on the point I make that before the earthquake, traditioanlly Port Royal was pirate freindly and after they were not? Or that I say Port Royal was destroyed and rebuilt? Or I see the the ships a effective? I am enjoying this as it makes me look to sources I have not read for a few years, and In reading my Vlumnes by pierenne I get to spiffy up my french

there we go then, the average pirate could easily move amoung the populous,not looking much different than the average sailor. that is what we have been talking about. Now if those fleets were so inefectual, why did the help end the Golden age of piracy and capture so many pirates? But not wanting to digress to long from the subgect at hand, the clothing of pirates, we can ave that for another thread. Like I mentioned before, IF I were to want to be a non brash rash or miscalulating pirate. I would not pull into a harbor where 2 40 gun ships were stationed at. now lets look at a list of these miscalculating pirates that gotr caught 1701 24 french pirates from ship LaPaix, London 1701 Capt kidd and 9 men london 1704 capt quelch and 25 men Boston 1705 capt, Green and 17 men Edinburgh 1715 captain Dolzen and 2 men London 1717, DeMont, De Cossey, Rossoe, Erandos, S. Carolina 1717 8 mrn from Bellamies ship, Boston 1718 10 pirates from Bahammas 1718 15 pirates from blackbeards ship, Willaiamburg 1718 Bonnett and 34 men charleston harbor 1719, Laws, Caddiz and Tyril London 1719, Capt, Woorley and 1 man Charleston 1720, Rackam and 10 men Jamaica 1721 Capt Vain and 1 man Jamaica 1722 Luntly Edinburgh 1722 10 pirates from Blancos crew Bahamas 1722 captluke and 22 men Jamaica 1722 52 men from Barthomew Roberts ship Caoe Coast castle 1723 Capt Massey London 1723 Harris and 26 menm Rhode Island 1723 Capt Finn and 4 men Antigua 1723 Philip Rouche London 1724 11 men hanged from Lowthers crew St Kitts Wes Indies 1724 Arcer white and 24 men tried in Boston 1725, 8 men includeing Capt. Gow London 1726, Capt Lyne and 19 men, Curacao 1726, Fly and 15 men, Boston and the list goes on, plus that is not a inclusive list mainly british influence So from that list we can say the fleets were ineffectual or very effectual, those kind of fleets swept the piracy from the waters We can second guess history all we want, but they stopped the golden age by tracking down and killing or captureing most pirates Some were pardoned, others died in battle, but in the end, without those inefectual fleets of ships, noting would have been done

I think Mr Foxe we are agreeing but not looking closely at each others words so diagreeing of the pirates you mention , 1 sailed internationally, the others sailed Africa, Local to one area, That is what I am saying, they raid a specific area and that would be their influence, weather that is East coast of the Americas,Bonnet: caribean, Calico Jack: east coast of africa, Tew: both southern coast of Africa, Every: or internationally, Edward England, the area of their raiding was their biggest influence, dress, trinkets and Booty, and ports they stopped in the area were influenced just the same. Would a ship raiding the red sea be carrying Rum for Grog? Or a more locallized drink, would a scarf worn by a pirate on the south coast of the gulf of mexico be from India? not for long, after getting used and abused it would be replaced, only so many mouth wipes at dinner before that scarf gets foul. Now that is my arguement. I feel we should not preceive what is exotic to us is exotic to those where it is from. So we probably are agreeing yet diaagreeing on points because we are having a discussion over the net were we type out a 1/4 page of answers a day or two, and if we were in the same room in about 5 minutes we would be laughing at our mistake. Hurricane, Yes I have been to Jamaica twice, Port royal is a interesting place, still, by the 1710s thru the 1720s , not the entire 20 years but inclusive, New Providence was the Pirate Island of choice, Calico Jack hung in Jamaica in 1720, the mood was against Pirates in Port Royal.In 1718 the English had the ships: Ludlow Castle 40 guns,Swift 6 guns, Diamond 40 guns, stationed in Jamaica,Scarboro, 30 guns in Barbados, Seaford 20 guns stationed in the Leewards, and 3 other ships composing of 80 more guns in the Americas, with 86 guns stationed in Jamaica I find it strange that a pirate would base himself in a bay with the capital in it. In 1700 the "act for the more effectual surpression of piracey" passed by Parliment made it easier to hang pirates, they were no longer required to be brought back to the admirality in England, this ment that the long waiting periods and trails without local witnesses were no longer needed and the local authorities could, and did, execute pirates. In 1715, govenor Hamiliton of Jamaica commisoned a 10 ship fleet to seak out pirates and bring them back to Port Royal for trial and execution, Hardly a pleasant place to be a pirate at. So again I will SURMISE, that with the changeing additudes toward pirates, the easier justice system, a new pirate freindly Island, and the rebuilding of Port Royal after a earthquake 192 years ago, that the mood in Port Royal had changed to a non tolerant one by the time I try to date the Ficticous Move, Pirates of the Carrib

good points, and in a few counter points I might add Port Royal was devastated, and sections were destroyed, such as NewOrleans was this year, Yes the city is still there, and major parts are unlivable but in Port royals case, the northern part of the city was submerged, this was the major dock area, over 2000 dead, cemetaries submerged and corpses floated in the harbor, Many on land died of desiese this caused, Merechants dependent on the docks went accross the bay to kingston. Yea it put a crimp in Port Royals side, and at this time the mood was changing against the Pirate affairs, the English no longer needed the Buccanners for protection and started arresting and harrassing them. they went to other areas and ports. And the peices of eight being a main currency, you can read some of Henri Peirnes (I hope I spelled that right) books on economics, it would make it clear why the silver coin of the Dons was a main currency, the same reason today some currencies are worth more than others. Port Royal was, as was the English additudes changing as it rebuilt. I think we are also wondering about articles of clothing, on board ship, clothing was mainly functionable, Flair was not much as it got in the way of function, and living in one set of clothes you would want a change, land clothes would be of a better type, getting a change of clothes from a prize, ok so you take anothers sailors clothes. I think we are reading to much into that, if you wanted finery buying it in port with riches gained through pirate activities would be a better way to get nice clothes, Which brings me back to my origonal arguement. Yes there were pirates that sailed internationally, But these were not the norm, way to often you read of pirates in certain area of waters, Historically certain areas of ocean were haunted by them, a thing a good pirate fleet needs is a safe harbor with friendly politics and a profitable trade route to plunder, and Knowledge of local waters to hide. Now are there exceptions, oh yea, and some of the most well know pirates sailed several oceans, but again, they are the exception not the rule. Pirates also had a major flaw, they partied till they were broke, THe buccanners were so famous for this they were known to party out the plunder from huge raids and want to go on another, seems it is said that the only ones getting rich were tavern and whore house owners. Retaining finery was not one of there top talents Again we can mention Morgan who bought property and others but you do not read about many doing that. I base my opinion , and yes it is just an opinion, on such as what I read in history books and papers, I gather from them that the romance of pirates has been around for centuries, and that the public, a never changing mass, wants to hear about swahbuckling and feathered hats, but as is true today, the commoness of everyday life lives on. It may be fine to look at a Hollywood star dressed to the nines for a event, but they sit around in the same skivvies we do at home. So, do I think a pirate may have owned a Epie, yes if he like swords, but a cutlass was Supreme for shipboard fighting Do I think they had collected much from foriegn ports, A few may have Do I think they had clothes with a lot of flair, not everyday clothes, And I beleive that, like ourselves today, we are more influenced by our local enviroment that far off distant places. I beleive that most peoples ideas of pritaes are based on Treasure island and Captains Johnsons book about Notorious pirates, they make good reading, but, historically, well the first is a novel with no basis for fact and the second is touted to be way inaccurate by historians.

where to start Foxe those types from Holloywood do think theire shite smelleth not As I have to agree that a large number of sailors did sail internationally, I do not think they would have aquired much that they could have kept into a seamans trunk, those things were not so large, and clothing they wore was pretty much functional, you basicly lived in it, once going rouge, you then were on ships that usually had many memebers so your duties were lighter, but then the area you traversed was less. Also it could be pointed out that pirates usually partied hardy once hitting a port and soon exhausted their funds, in that day exotic items were treated like funds. So while I have to agree that the influence was there, but probly not like we would like to beleive. You would think a guy goes to a Faire in London in the 16th century would be exposed to a lot of foriegn goods, but the basic london household did not trflect this. Once again we are in a age where our extreme wealth a commoner has today, was not known, in fact uppreclass was known to wear their fortunes IE. Jewlery and sometimes had little else but land to back it up. We have a website, but it is really tounge in cheek, VoyageofReprizal.com you cannot take much there seriously, It is more of a role play thinggy. it kinda keeps us together between events, we do about 4 main events a year. Once we did much more but our numbers have disperesed over the years so we started the website to keep track. America is a large place and our group lives throughout the western section. I think the thing I say about pirates is it would not be as common as the garb illustrators put them in. most illustrators seem to be drawing from discription centuries later or thousands of miles away. and as far as acurrate, do you think Captain Johnsons book on pirates is accurate? The more they flaired up that book the more it sold. Even in the day of Piracy Zenith the public wanted romantic figures. The Monsignor thing stated out as a joke, I showed up at a event in the Vestments and they would not let me change, they were having to much fun next we put together a long story of how a Cardinal got into a privateer fleet and literaly rolled on the floor laughing, We went before the queen for our letters of reprisal and even though I was in Privateer dress, I was intorduced as Monsignor Peter Fitzwell, She went with it. I thought I was going get skewered, Then they introduced my mother (don't ask a lady had decided to play that) who went on this long story of how as a child I had gone to Rome and came back a priest. I found out later it was all set up. Now I actually have done a bit of study of the eras clergy and pull it off quite well. The Queen wants nothing better than for me to convert to Anglecan.

maybe we are just simple minded on this side of the pond but at a event we have many duties, a 2 hour conversation with a patron, well that would be a luxury, especially if he wasin buying the ale.

Where ever it came from, It is a good find