Mission

I wonder if we can get one of these topics in every forum on the board? http://pyracy.com/index.php?showtopic=16656 http://pyracy.com/index.php?showtopic=16706 Seems like I saw another one too, but I can't find it now...

I'm not suggesting that there needs to be an overarching organization, I'm suggesting that if a group of people wish to have strictly defined terms, encampments and behaviors associated with pirate (or any) era re-enacting (which is in many ways a noble goal), they need to set that up an organization that facilitates that. If they can maintain high standards, they would become a desirable organization to those wishing to prove themselves in this arena. It can be done, you just need a really dedicated group of people with a very specifically defined charter.

Well, there aren't any rigidly defined terms that I've seen, so we're back to opinion again. "Living History" means one thing to you and another thing to someone else. I always think of the local Henry Ford Greenfield Village when we start getting into this discussion. The people try to stay in character the whole day and do the things that were done at the periods they represent, but they inadvertently slip in and out. Anytime someone says, "This was how..." they're not living history by the rigid definition. And these are people being paid to recreate history. To have a hierarchical re-enactment situation along the lines you suggest would probably best be served by creating an organization which defined new terms that are the property of that organization (in other words, trademarked) and then using them only at events put on by that organization. As for the problem of finding out the requirements (or getting the full info), I think it is beholden upon the individual to ask the organizers if they don't find satisfactory info. And if the response sounds too vague, you can probably expect that you're probably not going to find the situation you previously described. If you really want what you have detailed, you either need to find a like-minded group or create your own. As you yourself suggest, it's an elite (and thus small) group who want to re-enact at that level. I'd bet 5% of the membership on this forum aren't there...and many of the 95% are not even interested in going there. (Although some certainly are.)

That's what makes the hobby for you. Everyone gets involved in playing pirate for different reasons. No one's reasons are more or less valid than the others; they're just different. It's personal choice, up to a point. If you want an event that goes the way you have just detailed it, set one up and define the requirements with great specificity. But you can't impose that outlook on an event that someone else has organized. The person or group that goes to the trouble to organize an event gets to set the requirements for attending. That way the attendees are free to decide whether or not they are interested in (or even capable of) participating.

Wow! I wish I'd have seen that... Although this sounds like someone attending an event rather than being a part of it - unless it is just a pirate-themed party. What a fascinating idea! Although I would think some parents would take umbrage at them if they are really accurate. I am surprised how glibly most people accept Bucky & Becky, my gibbeted, rotting pirates. I've seen parents go out of their way to show them to their kids.

I don't know about anyone else, but I quite enjoy they events where the two commingle. PiP is still my favorite event and it is so in part because we have both non-PC and PC re-enactors working together. Ultimately, when it comes to this, I think it is up to the organizers to set down the rules. If an event is stated as being PC, then the non-PC folks should respect the effort and comply if they want to be an integral part of it. OTOH, when paying public members show up with their kids and wear foam pirate hats and plastic swords or Jack Sparrow costumes...what of that? Again, if you're at a public event, you are playing by the rules of the organizers. They obviously want the public there or they wouldn't be having a public event...so the shoe is on the other foot. Even the PC re-enactors at a PC event have to respect the rules of the organizers. It's probably best if we take the advice earlier in the post and ask "Who am I?" and not "Who is that guy dressed in Jack Sparrow duds?" I figure I should just let him deal with the event organizers; I want to deal with my friends, future friends and the public.

I tend to think of it as being a part of your personality to a degree. Some people love to act, others don't. People are people. Many of you already know I am personally not much of a first person re-enactor. Nor do I want to be - and I'm good with that. (Although I think it's sort of an Intovert thing, myself. From my Haunted House experiences, I know that if I find an enjoyable aspect of taking on a character, I can do it quite well. Although I do eventually find it quite exhausting like you, Michael. About three hours of that and you can stick a fork in me. (Again, this is often referred to in the MBTI lit. as an Introvert trait.) To counter Hawkins statement, I can (and have) produce(d) evidence of period pirates & buccaneers forcing priests to hold mass on their ships for the crew, pirates going out of their way to protect enemy church members and being most solicitous to enemy women and aged prisoners. We even have an example of a gentleman turned pirate. (Ineffectual though he was.) So you can be immersed in the PC persona and still behave differently than the stereotypical historical "bad pirate" if that's what you want. There's evidence for it. Like I keep saying, people are people and it takes all sorts of personalities and philosophies to make up any social group - including a gang of pirates. There's lots of evidence for a wide variety of hisorically accurate interpretations if historical interpretation is your goal.

It's interesting that the three of us who have responded as I write this all read the question differently. Michael is talking about clothing, I am talking about personality and M.A. d'Dogge is talking about character/persona. Of course, from what I've read (and written) these are the areas of the pirate re-enacting world that seem to correspond to our interests the best.

Actually, I wasn't talking about clothing, which is an area where I defer to you, Michael. I was referring to what I understood from Hawkin's question about the types of people that were pirates. Just like our forum, many types of people would have been pirates. If you talk to the assumed group of construction workers, you'd find some are hotheads, some are thoughtful, others are nice guys, still others complete jerks...etc. As I have explained about my character when the opportunity presents itself, I would never have been a pirate if I had lived 300 years ago (in fact, I wouldn't have made it much past birth, but that's another story). So I play a character who wouldn't have normally been a pirate, but who could easily have become involved with them. Yet I would have been tried as a pirate had they been caught when I was aboard. (I would just have a better excuse than most of the other people.)

We're as varied in nature and character as people were during period. Some are/were serious, others are/were showmen, still others are/were desperate and so on. You can't define a prototypical person in any time/location/situation. About the best you can do is draw an average - and that will ultimately be as bland and tasteless as averages have to be by definition.

Your link didn't work for me for some reason. If anyone else is having problems, try this one. (Do you 'spose there's anything new to be said about Rogers?)

Poor Jill. Or maybe lucky Jill. However you want to view it, she always celebrates her birthday twice on the pub.

It's not pirate, but I highly recommend One From Many: VISA and the Rise of the Chaordic Organization by Dee Hock. Fascinating concepts IMO.

“17. The Sea and Rivers [in the mountains in the Philippines] abound in excellent Fish. That sort is found there which is commonly call’d Piscis Mulier, or Woman-Fish, of the Bones whereof Beads of great value are made, because they have a singular virtue against Defluxions and that which has been try’d is worth much Money. The Licentiate Francis Roca, Curates of that place [Nauján], told me a very extraordinary Passage that had happen’d in his Division. An Indian going a fishing every day, found near the Water a Piscis Mulier, which they say is like a Woman from the Breasts downwards. He had __ actual Copulation with her, and continu’d this beastly Whoredom for above six Months, without missing a day. At the end of this time God mov’d his Heart to got to Confession; he did so and was commanded to go nor more to that place, which he perform’d and that abomination ceas’d. I own, that if I had not heard it my self from the Person I have nam’d, I should have doubted of it. [Footnote 1: The Dugong, a submarine elephant now rapidly becoming extinct, is possible the origin of Homer’s sirens and the mermaid legends; Columbus, for instance, was misled into taking one for a mermaid. It puzzled many travelers, though after 1565 it was known not to be a human being (A. da Silva Carvalho, Garcia d’Orta (Coimbra, 1934), 110); but even in the nineteenth century it remained a mystery to some (W.E. Retana, Aparato bibliográfico de la historia general de Filipinas (Madrid 1906), I, 151). Others refer to its ability to stop bleeding (Jerom Merolla da Sorrento, ‘Voyage to the Congo, 1682’ in Churchill, Collection, I (1704), 672; F. Colín, Labor evangélica, ed. P. Pastels (Barcelona, 1904), I, 82-3; J. J. Delgado, Historia general…de Filipinas [1753] (Manila, 1892), 912).] (Navarrete, p. 81-2)

Ah, the venerable coco-nut... Here's Navarrete waxing eloquent on the tree in his book The Travels and Controversies of Friar Domingo Navarrete 1618-1686. Someone was recently asking me how to make wine from a Coconut tree and this points you to which trees you should start with. Alas, I can't remember who that was, or I'd reply to them more directly. Anyhow, to Navarrete: “[in the town on the river Baco in the Philippines]…they make no account of the Honey; there’s plenty of Batatas and Camotes [Footnote 1: The Camote, or sweet potato, of which there are twenty-nine varieties, is widely cultivated in the Philippeans.], Ubis, [Footnote 2: A jelly is made from the ubi, which is an edible root (Blair, XXIX, 298; Combés, 7).],. Yuñames [yams], and a variety of Fruits: an infinite number of Cedars, whose Blossom, which I often saw, exhales a most fragrant Scent, and reaches far; a multitude of Coco-trees. There are besides abundance of other palm trees, from which they extract Honey, Wine [Footnote 3: On the palm-wine tree [the sago-palm or buri], see Blair, IV, 276 and Delgado, 660-2.], Vinegar, Tuba [Toddy], and Chancaca [black sugar]; also a Tree [the cabo negro], like the Banana, of which they make a sort of black Hemp for Rigging and Ships’ Cables; and of these the number is incredible. There is another sort of white Hemp [Manila Hemp], taken from a Tree call’d the abaca; it is excellent for Cables for the more it is wetted, the stronger it grows [Footnote 4: The leaf of the cable negro yields fibres from which the cordage is made; it is very durable and able to resist even salt water (Blair, XVIII, 177).] There is another Tree from the bark of which they make Stuffs as white as Snow, and delicately soft, which the Indians use for their Beds and Clothing, tho they do not want Cotton, of which they make an excellent Cloth.” (Navarrete, p. 81)

I suspect it is still in there, although I didn't see it. The format is so screwed up that you can hardly read some of the post titles, though. (That and I don't know the actual title of the thread - again, that's a topic that didn't interest me enough to read it very often.) You could start it here, although no one picked up on the Pirate Nationalities (Origins) thread when I re-posted that here, which led me to suspect they were more interested in clothing and character details than historical occurrences (except by way of proof of clothing and character details). Although there has been a spate of historical discussions lately... maybe now is the time. You can but try... You know the drill for creating lists - you have to prime the pump with a list of info in a well-named thread and let the cognocienti add to it. I think it is sort of fun for those who know what they're talking about. (Which, for this topic, isn't me. )

I don't remember them bothering to wipe anything out at piratesinfo, but a glance at the history forum (where we would have probably put it) shows that they have really messed up that forum. The search function doesn't even work any more. What a disaster... Hee hee...I found a topic on ship's surgeons in there that I didn't even respond to at the time because I wasn't interested. It was all you, Daniel, jess & mary read talking...

He'll just train the parrot to talk for him, although no one will figure how...

Well, this makes 40' crocodiles sound pretty plausible... “At Guistin [in the Philippines] I saw a Tree, of which the Curat at Luban had told us, that every Leaf of it which fell to the Ground, immediately turn’d into a Mouse. Being come to the said Town with the other Companions that were upon the Mission with me, I enquir’d among the Indians concerning the truth of that Report. They avouch’d it to be soi, and added, that if any of the wild Mice came within the Shade of that Tree, they dy;d upon the spot. The Tree is beautiful to look to, and of a very fine Green. I hapning to relate this in China, Father Balat the Jesuit, said, That in some parts of the Lower Germany there were certain Trees on the Seashore, the Leaves whereof falling into the Water were converted into Ducks. I afterwards read the same in Friar Michael de Angelis [Manoel dos Anjos], and at Rome, credible Persons of that Country assured me it was true.” (Navarrete, p. 77)

I haven't actually found a lot of references to using alcohol as an anesthetic. (This doesn't mean they didn't use it, it might mean it was so common it wasn't noteworthy. Still, I would think it would have been mentioned by someone... Keep in mind that some people become very combative when drunk, which would have made the surgeon's job more, not less, difficult.) I do find recourse to laudanum after a surgery and many references to the benefit of doing surgery while the patient's mind is still wrapped up in the excitement of a battle. For non-battle surgeries, there's also something about getting the patient's friends and relatives to come to the patient and tell them to 'be strong' and endure the surgery with a good spirit and so forth. The amount of pain that must be enduring during 'actual' cautery is also cited in some surgical manuals as a reason that those surgeons preferred not to do it, suggesting that the patient was still cognizant.

Well, since none of the books I've read so far mention the nodes of the neck, that scar would probably be much larger than if you see your surgeon in Orlando. (I'd have to find something in there that looks like "nodes.") But if you buy me a plane ticket and get me a hotel room, I'll bring the capital knife and we'll see what we can make of it. (You do realize that for it to be a proper period surgery, there will be no anesthesia.)

Hey, Ed just said Gosse got something right!

Ah, but this is Twill...mwahahaha. Innocent comments get massacred here in the pursuit of history every day. And debated and considered, and debated and argued, and debated and misconstrued until we find something more interesting to nitpick. It's like being in a period coffee house; lots of discussion, perhaps leading to the publishing of pamphlets for and against and little real action. Lest we forget, the original question was "Do you guys think most pirates followed Jacobite politics during the golden age and used this to back their activities?" (Seriously, go back and check.) I think pirates may have been interested in them and may even have adopted what suited them, but I have doubts that there was a concerted effort by pirates to make this a driving force behind their activities. Sure, some probably took it very seriously, but the question seems to ask (to me) if there was a concerted effort by pirates as a group to use this in some way to drive their activities. As we've debated and considered, and debated and argued, and debated and misconstrued, most pirates were probably driven more by immediate profit motives than altruistic values of any form. At the bottom of it, a true pirate is really just a thief. Someone today caught stealing expensive drugs from a pharmacy could say it's a reaction to the high cost of drugs or the lack of effective governmental drug programs or Obamacare or whatever other current event that has the public interest. It might even be true in some isolated cases of small thefts, but if they're stealing a whole lot of drugs and have a concerted plan to do so, it's more likely just a way to make some quick cash. The reason given for this when caught is probably window dressing.

And now, for your edification, a page from the book I am currently reading...attempting to read...pissing and moaning about having decided to read...(chose one) that will help you with your period writing skills, or the lack thereof. Introducing The Frenche Chirurgerye by Jacques Guillemeau as translated (in a manner of speaking) out of the Dutch translation of the original French book into English (you'll have to diagram that sentence to make any sense of it) by one A.M., who was so embarrassed by his efforts that he wasn't even willing to give us his full name. Enjoy this on-going paragraph of impossibly spelled words and period writing idiosyncrasies. Feel free to report any significant findings about medicine back to me if you make it all the way through. (If it wasn't such an important book, I'd have put it aside by now. This is the exact size in which the thing prints out. Some fun, eh?)

Liam, meet Ed Fox (Foxe), native of the England. (Ed, you could say it, but you'd probably get a lot of flack given then the vast majority of the posters are American. Make fun of the Welsh instead. They seem to be under-represented just now. (Where's dt when you need him?)) My impression of the Snelgrave account was that it was in the drinking toasts variety and was aimed at raising the ire of the someone who would disagree with them. Which to me suggests it was mainly used by them (in that instance at least) to bait someone.