Mission

How much indeed? (We're dangerously close to complete subjectivity here. )

Ah, but satire, while it contains the germ of truth, is usually exaggeration. We're back to the problem with Ned Ward and Hogarth.

Fayma answered this for me in another thread, but since I put this out there, let me quote the parts of her answer relative to my question here so there is no future confusion.

Ok, I'm getting confused. Someone told me (or at least I think they told me) that there will be a shuttle running from downtown Key West where the downtown portion of the events will be going on and Fort Zachary Taylor where the Fort Taylor Pyrate Invasion portion of the events will be taking place. Is this true, or am, I just confused?

Ah. They're sponsoring the part of the event taking place in town, then? Based on my experience with DoubleTree hotels, it would certainly be a more comfortable hotel than the Pegasus, although, again, I never spend much time in a hotel except to sleep, wash and get on the internet. Even the internet usually takes a back seat during PiP. (Although this year I'm going to try and keep a shortened version of the Surgeon's Journal Web page with photos while the event is going on, so my plan is to put in some more intensive hours during the morning...but I digress.) I guess it all depends on what you want, Beowulf. The downtown part of the event is about 3/4 of a mile from the fort and that is the shuttle I was talking about. (Someone did say there will be a shuttle between the fort and the downtown part of the event, right?) You are going to pay $100+ a night unless you stay in a youth hostel or find a really amazing deal. It's Key West.

What's not? The Doubletree? The one I found is near the airport, which is on the other side of the island. Is there a DT shuttle to/from downtown? What are its hours?

Yeah, but the Doubletree is not even close to downtown - it's in New Town. (If you want easy access, my advice would be to avoid anything that doesn't say it's in Old Town. I don't remember where the trolley drops you exactly but I'm almost sure it's in Old Town...which is 2-3 miles from New Town. That's a long walk.) The closest and cheapest place I found last year was the Pegasus. It's a simple, old-fashioned hotel, if nothing to write home about. It's about 3/4 of a mile from the site; unfortunately, you can't get much closer than a 1/2 mile, and that's only if you stay in the Truman Annex where you must stay a full week in a condo. Still, it's walkable and the Pegasus is fine place to lay your head and wash up. Once you get into the event, you probably won't use your hotel for much more than that anyhow. If you really despise walking, find out where the trolley drops you and find a hotel near that. Just remember that the trolley probably stops service at some time and if you are at the fort past that time (which is entirely possible and even likely), you have to walk back to your hotel. Other places within walking distance off the top of my head (but further out and probably more expensive than the Pegasus) include the Holiday Inn La Concha (expensive), Best Western Hibiscus (reasonable for Key West) and the Southernmost Hotel (reasonable for KW). For more choices, see this thread.

Hydrogen Peroxide and dish soap would do the world even better in that situation. But I digress...

I'll bet most people have quite a tolerance for lurid and what is generally viewed as socially unbecoming behavior. Prime-time TV will bear me out on this. I was astonished at how tolerant most people were of my grotesque Scarecrow prop that I set out at my friend's house at Hallowe'en this year. Heck, my friend's kid's costume was not too far different in the sort of gore my prop showed. So I doubt playing the outgoing whore or drunken sot will really bother everyone. (In fact, I've seen both at events - even during the day. Not everyone does it, but if they did, the event would just be monotonous.) OTOH, there will definitely be some people who would be offended by such public behavior. But then some people are offended by the mere idea of re-enacting a group of criminals, so there's not much hope for them anyhow. As for hard answers...that's really a whole separate issue which we discussed at length in this thread. As I indicated then, you have to ask the event organizers what is acceptable at an event. Individual re-enactors can say "I must be allowed to do x" as stridently as we like, but then still get booted from the event for violating their policies. You play on their field, you play by their rules. Actually, the original question was about how much of this was allowed during period, as asked by our now much beleaguered period-story author Red_Dawn. So the sketchy documentation is exactly what was originally asked for. I believe you're talking about this thread. Hawkins is right, though. Our documentation is incomplete and sketchy. It's probably also contradictory if it's anything like most historical documentation.

You can pm William Redwake via the forum here.

Are your legs starting to get itchy yet?

First paragraph: Victorian influence layered on top of upper-class attitudes of appropriate behavior, that started taking hold toward the later part of the 18C. That's the short version of why we have these long-held beliefs. In the earlier part of the 18C, and back into and before the 17C, the social divide wasn't quite as clear. The Victorian influenced, mostly elite, urban based research has been propagated time and again, up into at least 2003, but the primary documents do not back that up for the general population, or even the higher classes. And yes, skepticism as to the part of a woman in a painting of a tavern is a good idea, unless there are obvious indications (unlaced bodice, a procuress collecting money, a man leading her out of the public space). Second paragraph: Yep, have to agree with you there (and so would Rod). Perhaps one of the reasons we have a hard time wrapping our heads around the idea of society imposing a stamp on our behavior is that we're much more like the transient society of a dockside pub. When you don't stick around for long, it isn't as noticeable when you're a regular brawler, or get the serving maids pregnant. And probably a lot harder to haul your body into court to sue you for whatever fees are involved as compensation. Ok, but where's the proof (the "primary sources")? See if you can get info on the sources.

I didn't say it was always true; I specifically qualified that. However, your examples are non-specific and anecdotal and thus not proof of generalized social and psychological behaviors. My point is not entirely a generalization. Various psychological studies have showed that men undergo behavioral and physical changes when in the presence of women. (As one example, see this abstract from such a study. One point in your favor from this particular study is that if the man does not view the woman as a potential partner the effect appears to be negligible. Feel free to make what you can of that.)

This is why I want sources. The lecturer may (or may not) sound compelling, but he is not the key here - the period sources are. Whatever else you think, the concept flies in the face of a long-standing belief that regular women were not to be freely about in taverns during our era. Perhaps we have been assuming the Victorian age extended back to the dark ages. (Well, I sort of had based on what I've heard.) If there are indeed several sources, it sort of forces us to question some of our other beliefs (like the notion that the women in a picture of a 17th/18th c. bar must be prostitutes - as hinted in this discussion.) I first raised the point that bars in different places would be different and I stand by that. A bar by the port would most likely be more rough-and-tumble than one in the city center. Still, even the louts in the slummiest of establishments would behave differently if it contained both sexes (and not all of them were to be paid for after hours activities.) For the most part, a man can't impress a female by behaving like someone of no character at all. (This is not to say that everyone in a drinking establishment would be doing such, but some almost certainly would have. Probably more than less if our society is any indicator.)

It would probably have to be at an event.

That's really, really interesting! In a way, it casts this whole discussion in a new light as men nearly always modify their behavior around women in one way or another. Could you cite a source for this? (It sounds like there are many.)

I doubt the phenomenon is universal. It's weird. It's only on my laptop.

It's not very hard to have a good time in Key West without being dressed like a pirate. But with... Well!

No Captain Jim again?

For Halloween this year I made a scarecrow prop, which you can see via this link. What was odd was that I had no actual reason to make a prop this year (since I was not involved with the local Haunted Houses), but I guess 20 years of doing something becomes a habit. I have been thinking about doing this prop for over 10 years, but I could never come up with a compelling Haunted House room to go with it. I mainly wanted to do it so I could buy the wicked cool scarecrow mask and make a scarecrow with "wood" bones and leaf "organs." I was worried that the thing was a little too grisly for the kids, but the trick-o-treaters actually loved it. So there you go. (And wherever you go, there you are.)

Bump? Here's a new quote for guessing. (No cheating, aka. "Googling" now...) "The job will cost you a hundred bucks, plus expenses." "A hundred bucks? That's ridiculous!" "So's the job."

Last night for trick-or-treating there was a little girl with a pink and white face and some sort of white costume that I couldn't fully make out under her heavy winter coat (it was cold here in MI). When they really baffle me, I always ask the kids what they are. "I'm a ghost bunny!" I wish I had a photo to share. I couldn't see it at all, but she was obviously very proud of her concept. (I got the concept, if not the execution...)

Democracy in Action could also be represented by the picture on Ropemaking and Knots. It's weird, I can't see you photos on my laptop, but I can see them fine on almost any other computer. Unfortunately, I usually only have my laptop on the weekend when you post these.

Here is a simple dance that was commonly used by professional women to indicate availability and such not - warning it's a link to a video. (Ok, I know this will shock some of you, but I pretty much made that up after reading some of the above stuff. Sorry, I'll just crawl back in my hole and wait for passing flies. ) I tend to think it wouldn't be all that complicated to locate and recognize whores if you were seeking them unless you were a complete neophyte sailor. (And your more experienced shipmates would surely guide you. The iniquitous like nothing quite so much as company to justify their behavior.)

That does sound good. I wish the state liquor laws weren't so arcane. (Actually, I wish they didn't exist.) I've been waiting for Pirate's Choice Rum to make it to Michigan for years...