Red_Dawn

I asked this on a writers' forum, but while I got some good info on the subject, I don't feel like I have enough info.

I'm looking for rude gestures from the Golden Age. The kind you could get away with in a PG movie, but would get you in trouble with your mom if she caught you using them. For example, I know about the two-finger salute, but not what it was called back then. I also know about the bras d'honneur, but neither how old it is nor what it would've been called if it had existed back then. Anyone else know? (If I'm wrong about how PG those gestures are, let me know that, too.)

I'm also open to suggestions for other easily described, PG gestures, especially English and French. I'm looking more of the Up Yours variety, but the Neener Neener will do. Thanks!

P.S. Yes, an upraised middle finger is ancient. Yes, I've seen it in a PG movie. It just doesn't feel right for a Caribbean-type pirate story.

Still, I'm wonderin' about the "wearing of scents." My guess is they probably didn't wear it as a habit aboard. They might have "tested" it -- slopped some on themselves or each other as they discovered it in the plunder, much the same as one might sprtiz a beer or bit of rum on someone else when the party is going crazy, but other than that, they were probably a pretty stinky lot unless they were getting cleaned up and primped up for a trip ashore to meet the ladies.

Were women's scents embarrassingly different from men's? Because I have a few tricksters and Capt. Blue Eyes' "slopped some on themselves or each other" quote is giving me ideas.

Would it be cheating to say the cutest thing I saw today and every day since August second is my daughter Selena.

https://pyracy.com/in...y&album=478

http://www.flickr.co...len/6158300381/

Hitman, if that's cheating, you need to cheat with more pictures.

They are period. One was found in the Thames that was dated to the 17th or 18th century. It is believed to have been locked on a prisoner who tried to escape.

See here.

Cool! And ow, that spike looks wicked!

Whether it is original or a later dated prop for display, who knows, maybe the device was invented by Sheriff Joe Arpaio's great great granddad .

Looks like it wasn't after all. Sheriff Arpaio would've made 'em wear pink bloomers under their stripey suits, though.

Saw this on the Daily Squee: a cute rat sweater with one little flaw. It reminded me of this cute little headwarmer.

That may be how how they wound up in Arizona if they didn't originally come from there. We can't really date the first one, so we can't say the first one did or didn't come from Arizona. (I'm just guessing without doing any research, but the pattern of successful idea adoption has a definite pattern which is seen repeatedly throughout history.)

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply the ball and chain was invented in Arizona; I was playing off Jas. Hook's comment about cannonball recycling.

So the consesus is ball and chains aren't period. Thanks, guys!

Arizona prison built in 1876. LINK

I live in Arizona. You definitely wouldn't want to try dragging a ball and chain across the desert.

1880's on, maybe they were trying to use up left over stocks of cannonballs from the Civil War, a sort of an antebellum recycling program.

Well, we only fought one Civil War battle here.

This is more out of curiosity than anything, but you've seen those ball and chains in the cartoons, on prisoner costumes, wedding cakes,etc. Were they used in our era anywhere?

Thanks!

You're welcome, Elena.

That the Piracy Pub is a pirate fandom site, indeed, but here people are more into acting than writing, they dress up and play pirates lots of week-ends, and they have not so much time or interest for writing. But you might know other websites too, other forum discussion sites focused on the Age of Sail and pirates... and with this I am needing your help/ recommendations.

I'm afraid I don't know of any nautical-themed writing forums; that's why I joined a general writing forum. It has a historical fiction section, though its not focused on any particular era. It's also heavily geared toward writing for publication, and I don't know if that's what you want. I'll give you the link if you want to check it out anyway.

In the case of, say, the repeated hanging that I mentioned above, for example, it's doubtful whether anyone would have used the actual word 'torture', but they were certainly cognisant of its deeply unpleasant nature.

Sounds like I've considerably underestimated the brutality of the time.

However, I would add that you have here a bit of a classic triangle: your protagonists can be pirates, they can be good guys, and they can be historically accurate, but only two of the above at once.

Oh trust me, they're not good guys! (insert evil grin smilie here) They may not be going to Hell, but they'll be spending more time in Purgatory than they do on earth. (My protagonists, that is; their shipmates may be a bit nastier.) The psych torture thing is chiefly so they can delude themselves that they're better people than other pirates. "Hey, at least we only remove fingernails as a last resort!"

I cross-posted this question to the writers' forum and someone pointed out that a character that uses something resembling torture wouldn't come off as good guys (a good point, even though my protagonists are criminal jerks). It made think of another question to ask about psych torture: was it even consider "real torture" back then? Thanks!

Thanks, Daniel!

If I recall rightly, actual mock executions (a tactic that is still with us) were inflicted on some prisoners, who in some cases were required to pick their own executioners.

Man, that's cold!

It may not have been intentional, but Blackbeard's locking the captured prisoners of Charleston together in the dark below decks, the high class folks with the servants, was considered clear evidence of murderous intent, and Blackbeard threatened them once that they had not two hours to live. The effect on the high-class prisoners was fearsome.

Am I sick for finding something cheesy about that situation? Now my morbid curiosity is piqued and wants to know if this fearsome effect involved grown men weeping.

Thanks, guys!

I do seem to recall a story of the pirates putting all the captured ship's crew into a room with no windows, taking one out and then torturing that one nearby so that the others could hear the sound of their cries. The pirates figured the rest of the prisoners would be more likely to tell where their treasure was hidden when they were brought before them.

Torture by proxy might be more physical than I was looking for, but it's certainly something to keep in mind for pirates who aren't the protagonists.

There are also a remarkable number of accounts of pirates pointing their pistols at victims and pulling the trigger, only to misfire. I've often wondered if a few of those weren't deliberate misfires to inflict the same kind of fear as the hanging.

I can see my characters trying something like that!

"So you won't talk, eh? Then eat lead!"

*pulls out gun he knows is unloaded*

Click. Click.

"Aw, d___n it! Someone get me a better pistol!"

*Prisoner sings like a canary*

Threatening to kill their families. A man would tell anything to save his only son or his daughter...

Classic and potentially cheesy; I like that.

Because having my protagonists de-nail innocents for information is the wrong kind of cheese.

Wikipedia has a couple lists of psych tortures that seem doable for the time, and I could think up a few myself. I'd like to know what used at the time, though, partly for research and partly out of curiosity.

Thanks!

The OED offers these examples of pre-GAoP Jonahs:

1612 T. Lavender Trav. Certaine Englishmen Pref. to Rdr. C j, [He] thought it best to make a Ionas of him, and so cast both him and his books into the Sea.

1663 J. Spencer Disc. Prodigies (1665) 369 They were always presumed the Jonas's which raised all the storms in the State.

1679 Established Test 9 One of the Jonahs that was‥ heaved over the Decks to allay the Tempest.

Now I know why a non-evil crew would abandon someone on an island; because the evil alternative is to toss him overboard during a storm! D:

Though I must agree with Mission that I can't recall ever reading of a GAoP era outcast 'Jonah' of the kind you describe.

Sorry, I'll clarify was I said. I wasn't thinking the Jonah would automatically be the outcast so much as the unpopular guy would be more likely to be considered the Jonah than the well-liked guy.

Thanks, guys!

I'm not saying it didn't exist, only that I don't recall reading about it in any of the period Journals I've read.

Sorry about that; I misunderstood your post.

oh geez, i ran across this years ago and it was a different name but same concept. It was very prominent during the witchcraft era and new england ships were notorious for this practice. Common curses were sometimes blamed on a poor sailors family misfortunes. His wife lost a child, he is cursed because his wife is a witch or something along those lines. This poor sailor was blamed for such things as halyards parting, food or water spoiling, another sailor loosing his best rigging knife over when the Jonah walks by, being calmed etc.... just common misfortunes rather than witchcraft or curses.

Sort of a human bad-luck charm. Good reason for John to keep his mouth shut about his angsty past, too.

Somehow, I'm not surprised. Prior to now, I'd only seen the term on a Civil War re-enactor's and he was re-enacting a soldier. I only know of the Master and Commander connection because I googled Jonah+sailor last night.

Still, is it assuming too much to guess that there might've been a similar concept of a sailor whose presense is associated with the ship's bad luck? "The weather's been bad, we b. near died from a case of ship fever, the captain had his #&& bitten by a manatee, and all of this happened after John joined the crew! He's cursed, I tell you!"

I was recently clued in to the concept of the Jonah in my quest to figure out why an otherwise non-evil crew would dump their shipmate John on the first available island*. Apparently, the Jonah is a sailor who gets blamed for every unlucky thing that happens on board that can't be explained by human error. I'd like to know more about this concept as it was in the Golden Age.

What could get someone accused of being a Jonah? Was it a common sailor belief? How much would a Jonah's fate depend on whether he was on a RN, merchant, or pirate ship? What more can you guys tell me about the Jonah? Were they even called the Jonah back then? If it helps, John's meloncholic and unpopular.

Thanks!

* No, it's not a marooning; it's closer to a "he goes or we mutiny" situation.

Sorry to go all morbid on you in the Random Topics thread. Let me make it up to you here.

A little more detail on the dog attack. At about Easter, Jack, my little sister's retriever mix, was sick and wouldn't eat. She took him to the vet and was told he had pancreatitis, valley fever, and an intestinal parasite. They gave her some meds and told her to call back if he got worse, Nobody realized just how bad off Jack was until Saturday night.

None of us hold Jack responsible for that night. He was in more pain than anyone realized and was not in his right mind.

That night, Jack laid down in the middle of a major walkway in their house and growled at everyone who passed. Sis was worried that he might nip the kids (the 4 year old might've forgotten to use caution around sick dogs and the baby barely know what caution is), and tried to get him to move. He refused to obey commands, so she gave him a nudge.

Jack went berserk. He bit my Sis hard, giving her multiple deep wound up and down her left arm and right hand. He also clawed at her leg and gave her bruises. When my brother-in-law came to the rescue, Jack bit his hand and broke a couple of knuckles. BIL finally managed to get Jack secured and went next door to call the police. After the cops picked up Jack and my mother pick up the boys, they spent overnight in the hospital. Sis was in tears, partly because of the pain and partly because she knew Jack would be put down. Just because he put her in the hospital doesn't mean she stop loving him.

Jack was going to be under observation for a few days, but when the vet at Animal Control checked him out, he was too far gone and had to be put to sleep. It turns out Jack had distemper, a hard to diagnose disease.

We're all hurting inside. He wasn't smartest or prettiest dog, but he was friendly and goofy, almost overly affectionate, and we loved him. His change of personality was horrifying. Little Sis' boys are taking it calmly. I haven't seen my stepniece since Easter, so I don't how she's holding up (she was at her mother's house that night, fortunately). My other nephew cried when he heard Jack was dead. His sister didn't say much, but she didn't want us to talk about Jack around her.

My family needs some hearty prayers right now. First of all, my divorced sister has to go to court Friday to fight for her kids. They needs prayers for health, sanity, safety and success.

Second, my little sister and her husband were attack by their dog Saturday. Fortunately, none of their kids were hurt, though I think Liam may have seen part of it. I might give more details later. They're out of the hospital and should recover. They're shaken, though, and could use prayers for their mental and physical recovery.

Thank you.

The touching story of Joe, the All-Terrain Bunny, complete with cute video.

Nerd-fight time . . .

In a dogfight between Snoopy and Muttley, who has the edge?

(Note the pun)

I had to think about this a while, but I think Snoopy would win. If I recall correctly, both of them tended to crash a lot, but at least Snoopy was getting shot down by the infamous Red Baron. Muttley, despite having backup, was getting pwned by a pidgeon.