LaraCorsets

On lacing... (again, keeping in mind that most all of my info is based on 18th century reasearch & stays I have studied & owned) I believe that most...(I want to say all but hate being so definate).... most stays were spiral laced with a single lace throughout the 18th century and a bit into the 19th cen. It is in the regency period where you see modern cross lacing come into use. So it would seem to me that since spiral lacing was in common use in the 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th centuries in the closures of most women's clothing that likely it was also how the earlier stays were laced as well. In spiral lacing it matters not which end you start or finish at. If the garment is cut to fit correctly then you have an even distance between the edges regardless of lacing direction or tension.

Yeup.... the busk is usually placed center front in place of other bones when you want the front especailly rigid (like in formal stays). If the boning you have done works for you there is no need to add more. Not all stays had an actual busk. Many were all regular size bones, especially stays for a regular person's every day wear.

Mother Rose ~ Is there any chance you might have a width dimension for the baleen? I would be most obliged for any images on stays boned with baleen. YHS, MD The sizes varied greatly since the staymaker cut each frond by hand. I did a whole pasta comparison in another post but do not know how to link to it. I have seen huge wide chunks as large as 15mm wide and 3mm thick on occasion but most common are the finer slivers averaging between 2-5mm wide and 1-2 mm thick. As for photos I am sure I can find some where I can zoom in enough to see the baleen poking through. I do find it so interesting how many shades of beige to dark brown baleen comes in. Give me a bit of time to get photos.

Grrrrrr... I had typed a long response, was distracted by a phone call and then the computer froze and I lost the post. So frustrating. I am way to tired to go that into detail again so here is the short answer: No.... (insert routine disclaimer about my not knowing everything... having personally examined only about 30 or so antique 18th cen stays...and who is to say with any absolute certainty what was or was not). I say no because I have not yet seen or heard of a stay of the period (or any period) which uses cane/reed as well as baleen. I am sure somewhere out there is an exception, there always is something. But it makes no sense for it to have been a preference or deliberate choice to combine cane/reed with baleen or to even choose use of cane/reed over baleen. All staymakers used baleen. It was common and accessible to most. (confirmations or corrections from any out there with historical knowledge of the whaling industry are encouraged.) From my research to date all the 18th cen stays I have personally examined were boned with baleen. You find occasional additions of carved wood, shaped metal or carved bone all usually used to encourage or reinforce some exageration of silhouette (such as the ridge sometimes found on the center front or the extra roundness of later 18th cen stays' busts). It seems to me that reed/cane would be used by someone who could not get or afford baleen in their stay. This would probably be someone living far from any main urban locations. Probably someone who has to make her own stay and had to pick the grass in the field to use as she could afford nothing more, not even a previously owned stay. But maybe ...just maybe she did purchase or inherit a used stay and needed to replace a bone or five? Perhaps there is no local town to get a bit of baleen from the staymaker for repairs. Perhaps that poor country lass might stuff some reed into the channels of her old baleen boned stay out of desperation? So I guess it is ...possible.... but not likely. (in my opinion... ;-) Lara

Who? Me? Start trouble? Never! I just manage...to ahem... um... find myself in the mix..And my dear Sister, just who are ye calling a foo ..... did ye say new Lass? Ripe? Yes my pet, you'll really enjoy this one. Stop by when next in port...as always. You'll see fer yourself.

Lady B, Stop by one afternoon and we can disguss your needs. This young Miss in particular seems to have been brought to the right house. It would seem that despite her angelic face and proven innocence she is quite excited to .... ahem.... "learn the ropes" as one might say. Oh yes, I will be keeping this one. Rose

Oh Lilly they look great! Show us pics of you in them!!!

If you were here I would smack you in the head for starting trouble like you do. I know my Brother to be a fool, but stupid....no. Marriage is for the getting of heirs.... think on that when you look into the eyes of any would be future wives. Besides you will tire of her as you do with all of hem. I have a lovely new Lass fresh from Derbyshire with rosy cheeks and hair like silk. Her father gave her to settle a bill and she is ripe for the plucking. Shall I save her for you dear?

She had better well damned be after all the years I spent teaching the chit!

Hmmm ye wouldn't want to take on the role of a Bawdy house "Mother" now would ye? We could do with someone who would beat a little sense and respect into some of these whor.... ahem... courtesans... Yes, Brother dear... I am here to remind my doxys of their place. ermine... indeed. Thinks she's as good as the Queen of France does she? Nothing but trouble that girl. I should have left her groveling in the filth where I found her. Mother Rose

That is exactly what I was planning to do first. Heat and steam does wonders for so many things.

Kate, tell me more about the benefits of soaking and how it becomes easier to work with please. Is it simply to remove the curve from it being coiled or is there another benefit? I have been looking at my pile of reed with scepticism (I got a coil of each size to play with). I tend to be set in my ways and the stuff is completely alien to me.

Animal...you have NO idea! Mother Rose and Mistress Lilly have alot of history and unfinished business (Lara and Lisa are good friends) I would LOVE to go to PIP but from what I understand this year it is the same wekend as RF Philidelphia. That is a big problem, for many of us.

The 5mm, it is the smallest and close in size to the baleen strips in many of my antiques. You could even cut those down the center for even thinner strips if you really want to go crazy. Baleen was purchased as a chunk and stay makers cut off long strips by hand. This resulted in strips which were inconsistent in size and often no two were alike. In my antique 18th cen stays (where the boning is poking through) you can see a substantial difference in the diameter of one baleen frond compared to it's neighbor. To use pasta as a demonstration tool (hey it works).... Some are like linguini where it's neighbor may be more like a squared off spaghetti followed by a fettucini. The most commonly used size is like the linguini. (ironicly, old dry baleen is brittle like dry pasta and breaks as easily) (hmmmm.....linguini with meat sauce...yes, that is what I will have for dinner...)

http://www.farthingalesla.com/plastic_bones.php

I delayed in responding because this does not have a simple answer. It all depends on what type of boning you are using, how are constructing the stay, what sort of stay..... it can get very complex really and the maker needs to figure out which method works best for them for that particular stay. I also have to add that in regards to corsets of the Victorian decades and later I have no problem being considered an "expert" as that has long been the focus of my collection and studies. However, for stays of the Regency era and earlier I am NOT comfortable being considered and expert. Yes, I know more than most people but have so much more to study and learn. That all said, here are some of my experiencec and opinions on boning stays: - never use "spiral" steel, it is wrong in every way - flat or enameled steel is not period but has certain benefits. It is the first choice for theatrical period garments because of how firm, flat and easy it is to slide into sewn channels. They are easy to purchase is pre tipped sizes and easy to replace them if necessary. In a full boned stay it can make the garment quite heavy however and it can be difficult to get the small sizes often needed for those little end or tab channels. Most of us who choose to use them are professionals who have just about every size in stock ready to go. - Rigeline, cheap plastic boning and zip-ties.... I suppose if you have NOTHING else available it is better than nothing but it is all wrong in every way. They also do not last for more than one or two wears without warping terribly. You will have to replace it so why waste your time or money in the first place? - High quality German "plastic whalebone".. now that is good stuff! It is so much like real baleen in it's size and flexibility. I use it most often in my accurate reproductions that would have used baleen. I order the smallest size and use occasional pieces of the larger sizes here or there. I custom cut each piece for each channel, round of the ends and use a nail file to make sure it in not at all sharp (sharp rips through fabric). I get mine from Farthingales.com. Highly reccomended for full boned stays especially. In half boned stays do not skimp on the boning and it should do well. - reeds.... I just ordered a bunch from Kass and have yet to work with them. They look good but I haven't an experience with them to share. I just want to have it as an option for my customers to choose. Thee is my two cents for the day. I have to get back to work. I promise to share construction advice later.

Rhumba Rue, I am not sure I follow what you mean by "quilted down each row of boning"..... To me quilting is when batting in sandwiched between 2 layers of fabric so when it is sewn through it has depth and fluff to it. Like a quilt type blanket (did I explain that well enough to make sense?). It that what you mean by a stay being quilted? As far as I have seen (and I do not know everything) 17th & 18th cen stays were not commonly "quilted". I do know some later Regency era examples I can think of where they were padding the bust. Are you perhaps thinking of "jumps" which is an unboned, sleeveless fitted garment often worn as an additional warmth layer with stays or supposedly occasionally in place of them?

Lilly looks over at Mother Rose...and impishly sticks her tongue out at her..."So there...You see...my Johnny finds favor with his Father. No need to fret, dear mother...you HAVE taught me well. Like my father would ever chose or consent to me marrying you? Tess was a saint compared to you... As if a marriage with her sort were even a possibility. I invested in and trained my "daughters" for one purpose only. Marriage ain't it.

Ungrateful gutter snipe. What do you know of love other than what it could buy you!? Take heed dear Brother, she cannot be trusted, I taught her too well. As for the stays, the functional lacing is the center back as was common. Hoever they do lace up in the upper few inches of the center front. It is not un-common, but I am not sure why as it would never be able to serve much of a purpose. Perhaps for a touch of flexibility in how tight across the front the stay is? As all Ladies know our bust size can fluctuate a bit with our monthly cycles. Those stays are in Boston at the Museum of Fine Arts. I have found no other photos or info on them.

Oi Sis, the parallel stitches running perpendicular to what looks like the seams... are they just holding down the seam allowance? Yes, exactly. To keep them in place.

The Museum of Fine Arts in Boston has a lovely stay which appears earlier than most. Likely 1st half of the 18th century. Note the length of the tabs, the overall length of the conical torso and the "butterfly wings" at the base of the center front. That is not commonly found in stays later than the 1730s/40s (Let me see if I can figure out how to post a photo....)

What I said it was likely a formal bodice of a gown from the first half of the 18th cen, most likely second quater. The tabs are not covered in matching fabric because they are intended to be under the petticoat waistband while the lower center front and back would be over the petticoat and visible. This was usually done with stays intended to be worn as the bodice of a formal gown. It likely had a matching petticoat which was often used by later generations to make new garments. A silk lampas like that is extremely expensive. I feel it is second quater because of the shortness in the overall torso of the stays itself (they seem to get shorter and shorter throughout the 18th century until they are actually cut above the waistline by the 1780s/90s) and the ridge (like the bow of a ship) which runs down the center front of the stomacher. I saw stomachers built exactly like this one in the Snowshill collection and they are solid...really solid! They do not bend at all. Multiple layers of starched and sewn linen with specially cut unbendable boning. That ridge seems to be moving out of fashion in the third quarter of the 18th cen. My *theory* is that since this would have been an extremely expensive garment to make it is likely of the latest fashion of it's day. So my best guess is for it to be from 1730-1750. But, who's to know anything exactly? There were so many variations of stay styles happening in the 18th century. Many staymakers were experienced with many years on the job and decades of traditions behind them, influencing them. Some older clients want what they want even if it is 20 or 30 years out of style. So we often have period garments which have combinations of fashion trends. oh, someone asked about those lacing rings. I cannot see the garment up close to know if they are original. It was not common practice. As far as I have seen, it's the only one with them. But I have not seen every 18th cen stay in exhistence...yet. Notes on the construction of the two antique 18th cen stays I own: Common, simple, lower income person's stay of the third quarter of the 18th cen is here: http://www.laracorsets.com/Antique_corset_0162.htm It is not at all right for GAOP but there are lessons to be learned from it's constrution. I recently sold it but have made a pattern and documented it completely. Yes, it was backstitched. Here is a pic of the inside. It was unlined so you can see it's construction clearly Click this link to see the big version of this photo http://www.laracorsets.com/images/Antique_...ages/0162_f.jpg The nicer one I have is not yet on my website. I have to finish the pics and study of it. It's from mid century and is natural linen with a cream silk damask front panel. You've all got me thinking of the stays of the late 17th / early 18th cen and my site is sorely lacking in info. I promise to update it soon so it may be more helpful. Kisses, Lara www.LaraCorsets.com

For goodness sake, I am being talked about so much I had to join already!!! Hellooooo pyrates! Lara (who doesn't have a pretty signature pictur like all of you....*jealous*)