Fox

Today I decided to try to get all my wills, probate inventories, and other legal inventories for seamen of the 17-18th centuries together into one file, and in doing so I had a good read of some stuff that I've only glanced at before. Would some of you lovely costume experts be kind enough to comment on the bit in bold in this inventory. Inventory of the estate of Thomas Hewson which was detained by Anthony Roop: a Chest covered with a hide, 1li; 1 Coate & 2 payre of Britches, 3li; a Greeke watch Coate, 2li; a Dowless shirt and a new blew shirt, 12s; a Blew payre of Briches and a canvas payre of Briches & 2 Wastcoats, 1li; a hat and a Tennis Cape, 6s; a bed, Blankett and fether pillar, 1li 10s; a Gooners Scale & hights & compases, 10s; a payre of silver Buttons & a bill of forty shillings to bee paid in Boston, 2li 1s 6d; a 4 gallon Runlett & a 3 Gallon Runlett and a Jarr, 6s; 2 payre of stockins and a payre of shoes, 8s; a sarge Jackett and a shollone to Line a Coate and a striped pillibare, 1li; a Fishing line and hoocks, 3s; total, 13li 16s 6d

I haven't read either of them, but just looking at what others have said: About "Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash..." I don't know what Turley's sources are, but if he's trying to show that piracy and sodomy of the 18thc were inextricably linked then I have doubts about the reliability and credibility of the book "Hello Sailor" looks a little better: this, for example, is an endorsement which impresses me: However, from the description of the book it should be pointed out that it seems to basically be a history of gay cabin staff on cruise liners. Albeit, apparently, a good one.

In late 1680 a prosecution was brought before the Quarterly Courts of Essex County, Mass., by one Henry Lilly, and English emigrant, against George Penny, master of the ship Unity which had carried him and his wife to America along with several other pasengers. As well as allegedly forcing the passengers to pick oakum, and witholding their rations if they did not, and brutalising passengers with a rope's end, Penny also skimped on the rations which he did eventually mete out. Two of Lilly's fellow passengers deposed that: Three other passengers deposed further that: However, the gunner, cooper, and surgeon of the Unity all stated that: The court found in favour of Lilly and the other passengers.

Here's a picture of a Dutch seaman from the 1680s wearing an almost identical hat and coat.

The bulk of Drake's really famous stuff - his raids on the Panama Silver train, the sacking of Nombre de Dios, the circumnavigation etc took place in the 1570s (first fight against the Spanish at San Juan de Ulua, 1569 - return from circumnavigation, 1580). What is frequently overlooked is that England and Spain were not at war until 1585, so all of Drake's career-making exploits were piratical. Even if he'd had a commission (which he didn't), it would have been worthless. The same goes for Drake's contemporaries who waged an unofficial war against Spain prior to 1585. Morally speaking there might be some justification for their actions, but legally they were pirates.

See, over here "punch" doesn't have a recipe per se, it's just what you get when you mix drinks up in a big bowl. There are several recipes, but trying to define a punch is like saying that a cocktail always has sasparilla in it. The term punch certainly turns up quite frequently in GAoP era writings, and earlier. The real preferred drink of the seaman, at least according to Ward, was "flip", which in that case could be as simple as beer and spirits mixed, and sometimes warmed. Flip or punch could, but did not necessarily, contain egg whites Seamen enjoying punch from a puncheon From France we get brandy, from Jamaica comes rum, Sweet oranges and lemons from Portugal come, Strong beer and good cider in England is sold, Give to me the punch ladle, I'll fathom the bowl.

Since my post I've also checked a couple of other sources. Bernard Capp found 4 cases in the Commonwealth Navy, with no convictions (at least, no capital punishments). One of the defendants later found himself a post as cook on another ship. It has been suggested that a passage in Ward's Wooden World suggests homo-sadistic overtones in the boatswain's flogging of miscreants. I don't think it's conclusive myself but in the interests of a balanced argument here is the passage: I would also like to draw attention to the reaction of a seaman when propositioned by one of his shipmates in this newspaper report of 1740: The advances alarmed the sailor, so he went to his officer, and the culprit was then examined by the surgeon. Quite a few of the cases quoted by Capp and Rodger involve another seaman becoming suspicious, or even having some definite knowledge, and taking the information to the ship's officers to deal with. The examples which we do have give a good illustration of the difficulty of concealing homosexual activity on a cramped and busy ship, and the general reactions of the other seamen to it.

My lips are sealed Out of interest, how does Rogozinski define a "privateer"? I would say that the difficulty in describing Drake and co as privateers is that although they're perhaps best remembered as such many of their earlier, and indeed most famous, exploits were distinctly piratical.

Kass, I reckon Petee owes me a beer. If you buy me one when you come over then we're all quits. :)

Wooo, busy day again, apologies if I miss anyone's good points. The statue of Duguay-Trouin looks very late 18th or 19th century. The picture Das posted of him DEFINITELY looks 19thC Petee, nice pictures! How many pictures did you have to trawl through to find them? How many of them are strictly period? And how many of them show seamen or pirates? Das, if a 60-70 year old guy turned up at a 1690s event in boots I wouldn't bat an eyelid. If he were pretending to be a pirate I might have my doubts! I'm not pouting. Until the war was over you WERE British. What I find embarrassing is that you had to have help from the French of all people! The Rev war (Colonial Scuffle) interests me. The only war in history to be fought over whether the milk should have gone in the harbour before the tea... *********************************************************** BOOTS, the bottom line (as I see it) If you want to prove that pirates of the first half of the 17thC sometimes wore bucket boots then fine, no argument from me. If you want to show that a small, statistically insignificant number of GAoP era pirates might have worn boots then fine, no argument from me. If you want to prove that boots might frequently have been found on the ends of pirates' legs then fine, but no amount of evidence of the existence of boots in a land-based society is really relevant (unless it really was an overwhelming amount - which it isn't). There's no argument about the fact that boots existed. Let's see some pics or records of long boots on sailors of the 1690-1730 period, not pics of boots on farmers in 1760. If you want to prove that boots were commonplace on pirates then fine, but

The VOC are recorded as tying two chaps back to back and throwing them overboard...

Two small points: 1. Although the original order was for the mixing of rum and water, by 1785 "grog" could mean any watered down spirits. Exactly when it cam back to being specifically rum based I couldn't say. 2. "Grog" is not, so far as anyone can ascertain, a period term for the GAoP. It was probably a corruption of "old Grogram", the nickname of Admiral Vernon who issued the order Das quoted. The earliest reference to the word in the OED is as late as 1770. I appreciate that for you Baratarians it's ok, jut thought I'd chime in for those earlier folks amongst us. As late as 1699 rum was considered a landsman's drink, not really fit for good hard-working tars.

...And how likely is that?!? Yes, beer was largely weaker then that it is now. Hey, even I can remember when most beer was weaker than it is now!

There is, it's one of the DuPlessis paintings of the French seamen. However, it's ONE picture out of hundreds, the guys might be officers for all we know, and the are French... Yup, that's about the size of it. :)

Jasper Carrot summed it up well Kass, "Gee, you're English? Say, do you know Mrs Jones in Blackpool?" I'm beginning to regret making a joke about Penn... but Kass's description kinda remined me of the great hero Sir Walter Raleigh: he is reviled for introducing tobacco to England, which he didn't actually do; he is praised for introducing the potato to England, which he didn't actually do; he is remembered for laying his cloak over a puddle, which he probably didn't do; he didn't quite get around to fighting the Armada; he tried to colonise America, and all his colonists died or disappeared within three years; he searched for Eldorado but failed to find it; his history of England which he wrote whilst in the Tower is flawed and biased; and we're STILL facing the ramifications of his great idea to fill Northern Ireland with Protestants. :)

Tell you what Kass, I'll swap you Tony Robinson's email address for an afternoon in the trunk...

Sorry, I assumed you were including yourself in that statement, my mistake. However, there's no mistake that when you used the term "historical crap" you weren't referring to Hurricane's comments, you were referring to historical discussion. I typed out a great long response to the middle section of your post, but I've just deleted it. I really can't be arsed, it frankly isn't that important. I don't, and never have had a problem with Hollywood pirates. I know you don't believe that but it's true. Now here's where I disagree. This crap about "what the public expects" and "what the public recognises as being a pirate" is just a pile of steaming horse dung. The public genuinely don't "expect" anything - they are just impressed with what they get. They don't need boots or sashes or big skull earrings to recognise someone as a pirate. Hell, when I do non-pirate events as an authentic seamen, even in my 1805 gear I have to explain to people that I'm not a pirate! If the public walked into a camp full of guys in buckle shoes, petticoat breeches, short jackets, neck-cloths and long wooly hats they'd KNOW instantly that they were in a pirate camp - even if they weren't! If you wanna go down the Hollywood route then more power to you and I'm sure you'll have great fun doing it, but it's "not the only way"!

Hey! There's two of them, that'd do to be going on with! How much and how quickly can you ship them here? I know Franklin, he's the guy that wrote the worst ever song about pirates when he was about 13 (I must admit, my pubescent poetry wasn't much better), but who's this Penn guy? See, I was gonna put on my red velvet tights and leather posing-pouch for when you came over Kass, but I s'pose I'd better not now...

Water was drunk, but its quality could never be assured. There was no official provision made for water so far as I am aware until quite late (though the order for watering down the spirits came in 1740). Beer may well have gone bad quickly (see Nathaniel Knott's comments above), but water often started out bad. Interestingly, I used to live in the old pump-house for the first ever sweet-water resevoir built in Britain. It was built to supply ships during the Colonial Scuffle, so that may well be the origin of the regulated water supply. Also, seamen didn't much like drinking water - beer was often replaced with spirits or wine, but I don't imagine water would have been too popular. Maybe as an addition, but probably rarely as an alternative, except in the direst circumstances. Henry Teonge frequently notes the consumption of lemonade when the booze ran out.

If you don't wanna buy shoes that's a different matter, just you were talking about having to "justify" them, so I gave you some justification. For the record, most people owned shoes, not just the wealthy. Also, straight lasted shoes shouldn't be any more uncomfortable than any other pair of new shoes. If they really are uncomfortable then it's because they don't fit. People wore straights for the better part of half a millenium - they wouldn't have done that if they'd had a major fundamental flaw like being inherently uncomfortable! I've got about 5 pairs of straights and they're all lovely and comfy, even the stiff ones.

It's one gallon per man per day, so 85 X 168 = 14,280 gallons

Sorry, missed the thread. Woods' Navy Rum is without exception the finest tipple on God's Earth.

Who would, and why? No, but unless you're starting from being a baby you probably would have owned some shoes before you became a sailor...

From Johnson's General History: "...for it may be noted that Roberts drank his Tea constantly...". Not common though, I can't think of any other references to it off the top of my head. On the subject of fishing I found this today (God, it was good to get back amongst the boring old tomes and documents...). From the Journal of Francis Rogers (kinsman to the better known Woodes): I also came across some supply documents reckoning the amount of victuals required to supply a warship for a 168 day cruise, giving the different amounts for each different rate of ship. A sixth rate ship with 85 crew would equate to a medium sort of sized pirate ship: Bread - 14,280 lb Beer - 59 1/2 tons Beef - 2,040 pieces Pork - 2,040 pieces Pease - 63 bushells Fish - 765 Butter - 765 lb Cheese - 765 lb Total cost - £510

The stubble kinda gave it away... sheesh, I'm gonna have to give up on this deadpan malarky... Still looks a lot like my ex mother in law... Anyway, since the subject of my trollops has been raised, I usually go for quantity. (hmmm, maybe this belongs in that other thread...)