FLAGS FOR POTC

[BILLY BONES]

Alright, here's another way to help me without getting paid. I'm making various pirate flags for Pirates of the Caribbean III. Of course, I have examples of the usual panoply of flags we all see, but I need to create Chinese and corsair flags. I've seen the 19th century Chinese Pirate flag. If you have any examples of unusual pirate flags from any time period, from any part of the world, please e-mail me. I prefer to stay on or before 1730. Maybe some reward can be obtained for your help. Who knows?

[Fox]

Billy, I've emailed (as you requested) let me know if you don't get it for any reason.

[Coastie04]

One I found quite a while ago at the Coast Guard Academy museum is described as follows. It's from 1841, but is at least unique in being a blue pirate flag as opposed to the standard colors.

From the Salem Register, June 17th 1841:

The description said that the flag was "a blue field with death's head and marrow bones in white, in the center."

The rest of the article describing the pirate's articles is here.

[Fox]

Charles Harris was also recorded as having a blue flag at his trial...

[Gentleman of Fortune]

BIlly BOnes

What are you making the flags out of? I am trying to find a source for 100% wool bunting for flags but have not had any luck.

If you got a source... please share!

GoF

[MadMike]

Yeah, the silk screened pseudo "Rackham" pirate flag in the first POTC was a disappointment, hope to see some historically accurate ones next time around (then again, it's entertainment).

Yours, &c.

Mike

[BILLY BONES]

Foxe, I didn't get the e-mail, I'm afraid. Sorry it'sd taken so l;ong to get back to everyone.

Once again, the Rackham flag flies over the Pearl, but the one we have is quite well done, not silk screened. I'm not sure if this is the same one used in the first movie.

[hurricane]

I find it funny that that flag was used in Cutthroat Island and PotC. Can't someone in Hollywood get a clue and be a little creative historically? Particularly since the Rackham flag is shrouded in such doubt? It's an attractive flag but soooo overused everywhere.

-- Hurricane

[Fox]

Like a nit-wit I didn't save the email (thought I did, 'parrently not)

Chinese flags are something I don't know a massive amount about. There's the well know 19thC example in the NMM, and there's an account of a Cantonese pirate fleet in the early 19thC whose ships flew plain coloured flags (black, red, green, white, and blue IIRC) depending on what squadron they were in. It's a bit late for what you want but I can check out the reference if you want me to.

Barbary pirate flags tended to be quite religious in nature. They came in all colours and the most popular device by far seems to have been a crescent, pointing either to the fly or to the top edge of the flag. Many illustrations show variants with different numbers of crescents (1-3 seems the most common) in different arrangements. These flags are Tunisian privateer flags of uncertain date preserved in the Tunis Maritime Museum:

...

While this one is copied from a 17thC engraving of the Barbarossa brothers

Speaking of Barbarossa, Kheir Ed Din Barbarossa's flag is preserved in the Istanbul Navy Museum.

This flag, often mistakenly attributed to Christopher Moody, is sometimes thought to have been a Barbary pirate flag, but I believe that is also erroneous and comes from a mis-translation of the French word "Corsair"

Basically, stick with crescents or other Islamic religious symbolism, and bright colours and you can't go far wrong with Barbary flags. One interesting thing about Barbary flags is that quite often they were not rectangular. Swallow tailed flags, and flags with rounded ends were also pretty common.

[Captain Jim]

I second Hurricane on this one. Furthermore, Jack Sparrow doesn't need to use a genuine, historically known flag, but the creators of Jack's (or anyone else's) signature flag should pay attention to historc flag elements and the fact that they were meant to be seen as a signature, a warning and a command at a distance, meaning that the elements must be simple, large, bold and unambiguous. A pyrate flag should convey a simple message, such as "I am the dread Pyrate Roberts. Give up or die."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Fox]

Apparently my post had too many images for one post so I've split it.

Some of the pirates of the Golden Age had extremely interesting flags (if that sort of thing interests you), and if you want to find something different yet authentic you might think about using different colours. George Shelvocke reckoned in 1718 that yellow was the most common colour for pirate flags, and there are certainly examples of red, blue, and white jolly rogers pre-1730, as well as black. As well as the obvious skeletal devices you might also like to think about some of these examples:

Bart Roberts:

......

Jean Martel/Captain Kennedy

John Phillips

Captain Nichols (whose flag I suspect may actually have had the dart going through the heart, like a modern "love" symbol)

Phillip Lyne

Thomas Cocklyn

Bear in mind too that not all pirate flags were "jolly rogers". Many pirates flew national flags, not as false flags, but as a proclamation of nationality in the same way that merchantmen flew them. Roberts, for example, is recorded as having flown a Union flag and a British pennant, as well as an English red ensign. Other pirates are known to have flown Union flags, St. George's crosses and all sorts of other national flags. Also, national flags might be personalized by pirates for their own use, for example:

Thomas Anstis

Thomas Cocklyn

.

There is no evidence yet discovered to support the supposed Rackham flag, and it is certainly unique in its device. Perhaps the 20th century inventor of "Rackham's" flag was inspired by Roberts' flag with a cutlass and skull, but I doubt it. More likely, he was inspired by Defoe's fictional "Captain Singleton" whose flag was black with 2 crossed daggers.

Hope that helps, let me know if you want anything else. :)

[Black Hearted Pearl]

Wow, that was great Foxe. I'm glad your email didn't work and we all could enjoy this information.

[DurtyLillie]

Just dropped by since the topic was me favorite! Flags..... oh yes! Thanks for the historical info...my latest challenge is a broadcloth French Norman creation. For some reason, pyrate folks desire to see tallships on their flags... not "period"...even though very colourful. More talk of what materials to make flags out of would be appreciated....like I says "we all can't dine on silk".....even heard of one pirate-flag relic made out of hide or skin? true?

Cheers, D.L.

[Fox]

There's been a bit of discussion before about authentic flag fabrics. Wool bunting is GoF's fabric of choice, and silk is mentioned in quite a number of period sources. The ideal fabric for a flag is one which combines strength with a light weight, hence the suitability of silk.

Never come across a hide flag, but I can't imagine it would be any good - it would just be too dense to fly except in the very strongest of winds. Still, I'd be interested to know where you heard about it.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Its not that I necesarily have a love affair with wool bunting, its just that it is known to be a correct flag material of the time (like silk).

I am so glad you posted the info though.... becuase a lot of people believe that it HAS to be BLACK to be authentic.

My thinking is that black silk would be more difficult to come by as it would be expensive and not really an "in" color to have clothing made into. So I think that a black pirate flag would be really a purpose built item that would not necessarily be ready available.

Now, maybe after a few sucessful pirating adventures, a stop in a "friendly" port, might provide the quantity of black silk to make a period sized flag (which would be large), but the chances of finding bolts of BLACK silk on a sugar, foodstuffs, or logwood trading ship might not be that great. But yellow, light blue, red, and pastel colors that were in fashion might be available.

This may explain why there were so many flags NOT black. Well, we got lots of yellow silk captain... lets make our flag out of that.

As well as explaining why a number of flags were modified national flags. The ship they were sailing on was bound to have a number of flags on board for communication anyway, and the National Flag was bound to be one of them.

Again, speculation might mean that pirate flags were made from the canibalization of other flags (again, explaining why there were lots of NON-black flags.

Of course, its all speculation since none survive, but I think we have enough clues to construct an appropriate period pirate flag if we follow our heads instead of our hearts (which seems to be difficult for most pirate re-enactors).

To me, a black pirate flag is so trite ( if not passe') that I would rather have something else anyway.

No offense to all you black pirate flag fans.

GoF

[Fox]

Couple of points on "black":

We are all agreed that true black was an expensive colour until the advent of chemical dyes, but if we think about even our own usage the word "black" is often used to describe a dirty dark grey, or sometimes a black/blue - both of which colours were available much cheaper than true black. Impoverished scholars, for example, have always traditionally dressed in black - not true black, but a kind of off-black/grey.

I quite agree with GoF that it's unlikely many pirates happened to come across a bale of true black silk every time they wanted to make a flag. I'm firmly of the opinion that "black" pirate flags were probably near-black rather than true black most of the time. Apart from the circumstantial evidence about cost and availability there is also a tenuous clue in the flag of Charles Harris. In a newspaper report of Harris's execution his flag is described as being black, but at his trial his flag was described as blue. It is possible that Harris had more than one flag (like Roberts, Cocklyn, Davis, La Bouche, Low, and countless others), but I wonder if it may be that Harris's flag was actually a black that had faded to blue. One witness described what the flag actually was (blue), while another described what it was intended to be (black). Not evidence, but a distinct possibility.

My second point is about the prevalence of black flags. In the early part of the GAoP many flags are described, sadly, without mention of their colour. Those whose colours are described are sometimes black, but sometimes other colours. I think that Shelvocke's description of yellow flags in 1718 if of immense importance in the absence of other information. Shelvocke is not talking about one or two pirates, but about pirates in general when he describes their flag as being yellow, and since he clearly knew what he was talking about I think there is a reasonable case for saying that many pirate flags were probably yellow at that time.

By the mid 1720s however, black was definitely the colour to have if you wanted a pirate flag. The details of flags given by Johnson in 1724 may be a little dubious (though I really see no reason to doubt them particularly), but it is worth noting that with only one exception they are all described as being black, if any colour is given*. Countless references can be found in the General History to pirates hoisting a "black ensign" or something similar, even if no other details are given. By 1726 Capt. Delgarno of HMS Southsea Castle was "resolv'd to bring in all such pirates, where he shall find a black flag..." (Colonial Papers 1726. 360.). This, and other similar references make it clear that by the mid 1720s flying a black flag was completely synonymous with being a pirate.

So, the colour to choose really depends on the period you're portraying. If you're being an early GAoP pirate, say pre-1720 then go for any colour you fancy, including black (but yellow would be good). If you're portraying later pirates, say 1720 or later then black is probably the best.

Personally, I'm making a yellow flag. Partly for reasons of authenticity and partly to get away from black - I'm with GoF on that one.

On national flags: I think, given the number of pirates who probably flew their own national flags along with their piratical flags (ie, they're clearly not trying to kid anyone by the use of the national flag) there is probably a very good case to be made for pirates (some at least) not casting off all allegiance, but rather flying their national flags out of pride, to be identified as English/French/whatever. As my Dad once said, if there's a fight in a dockside bar and you don't know what it's about, join in on the side of the people who speak your language...

*Not counting the fictional Misson flag

[BILLY BONES]

Thanks again Foxe, et all. Of course, please remember that I'm dealing with writers, directors, and everybody else's concepts of piracy. As has been pointed out to me, this is a fantasy, and we must have things that the general public will be comfortable with (in their opinions). I am sneaking in some of your research and ideas. I had a pretty good idea what I was going to do, but it pays to get some other perspectives. I've found that in this business, ocassionally, you can slip in a more authentic perspective or item, and it will slowly open up people's minds to the idea. Thanks again for your help! BB

[Fox]

No problem Billy,

just tell the set designers that Johnny Depp's eyes are really set off by a yellow background, and we'll see footage of him in front of a yellow pirate flag before you can say "jolly rogers were black!"

[Tall Paul]

A bit of lateral thinking here, but given that black cloth was relativly hard to come by/expensive.

And if it is possible that some flags at least were painted.

White fabric would've been fairly plentiful on a ship, and if not, relativly easy to come by.

Why not start with a sheet of white canvas (Or some other suitable material), and paint everything that doesn't look like a skull & Crossbones (or whatever) black?

Instant black flag!

Tall Paul

[Syera]

Since you're supposed to be going out on a rather exotic tack, I'm gonna tell you what I'd really, really like to see.

Something Arabian Nightish. I'm sure this could be done well.

-A scimitar would probably work very well into the design.

-A magic lamp would, I believe, be difficult to work into a design and have it look good, but if it could be made to work... well, you'd be my hero. :)

As for Chinese flags...

-Dragons are probably an obvious choice. A tiger could be pretty nice, too.

-Red is considered a fortunate color. Yellow is or was or something the Imperial color. Hmm... pirates who want to be royal pests?

-Cranes are considered a symbol of longevity. Birds in flight are very dramatic!

[Cire]

Foxe, another thought on references to black flags... probably not very likely, but it did occur to me. Considering the usuage of the word blac:, you can have black moods, it could be a black day when disaster strikes, black can mean evil... is it possible that a black flag wasn't black in colour at all?

[Fox]

Hmmm, like Black Bart Roberts' "black flags" might have been pink you mean? (anyone got a period reference to that moniker by the way?)

Not impossible, especially considering the later use of "black flag" as a euphemism. I'd have to go back over all my notes, but I'm pretty certain that most of the references to "black" flags, particularly those referring to a specific flag, are actually just descriptive. Quite a few of them use the word "sable", which is heraldic language for black, certainly suggesting an actual black flag.

[Syera]

Whatever the historical value, I would recommend making some of the flags a color other than black, if only to add some variation and - dare I say it - eye candy. Red would be my first choice.

Another thing I'd like to see worked into a pirate flag - an octopus or squid. Not only are they cool on their own, but people were right frightened of those, being as how they thought giant ones were lurking in wait to drag down their ships. In that regard, I think they'd make excellent pirate-flag material.

By the way, my sister wants to see a dragon and an angel on a pirate flag. (Vietnamese mythology; she's been watching a bit much 21 Jump Street, methinks. )

[Cire]

Not impossible, especially considering the later use of "black flag" as a euphemism. I'd have to go back over all my notes, but I'm pretty certain that most of the references to "black" flags, particularly those referring to a specific flag, are actually just descriptive. Quite a few of them use the word "sable", which is heraldic language for black, certainly suggesting an actual black flag.

Foxe, as fond as I am of you, I think you are a wally. Why did you not say sable before? But if you are going to check back through your notes, at least it'll be keeping you out of mischief.

[BILLY BONES]

OK, I've made the flags, and every day, we fly one over the basecamp. There's been alot of nice comments, but also some controversy. Mainly on the shapes of the flags (proportions). Some of my flags are bordering on square. It looks better with some of the designs, and when flying your ensign from the mizzen, they don't interfere with the guns or drag in the water. I have yet to find a Pirates Flag Regulation Manual, but the production designer is appalled that they don't all fit the 3x5 type of format.

It also seems irksome to him that some are 20 feet on the fly, and some are 10 feet, once again alluding to regulations. Of course, many flags of the period were almost square. I also took the liberty of painting a couple of the flags, rather than sewing on the design. It's my opinion that this is correct as well on some of the more intricate patterns. As far as materials, I've used linen, hemp, wool, and yes, due to budget, some cotton. Let's face it, the industry thinks that all pirate ships are the Queen Anne's Revenge, and that all pirate ensigns should be of the size for a flagship. No dugout canoes, pinnaces, sloops, etc. Now as far as the supposed Jack Rackham flag, The design is pleasing and the message straight forward. I can understand picking it. It would, however, have been just as easy to design something original. The ensign is well made, by the way, and is of linen.

I was commissioned to make these flags in a month, during which I was home for Christmas, my mother broke her hip, my basement flooded, my dog died, etc., so it turned out to be the month from hell. Frankly, I don't care if even one flag makes the film at this point. I just want to go home. Oh, am I whining? Thanks again for your input. BB