michaelsbagley Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 My girlfriend has been asking me about what types of things a lady of the period would have, and well to be honest, I haven't the slightest clue as to the material culture items that women would possess. Does anyone have any ideas? Or images they can share the links to or post here? I think she is thinking mostly personal items such as combs, brushes, other grooming items, popular knick knacks of the time (if any), any items a woman might pack while travelling, things she might keep at home. I know this is kind of vague, but I am really not sure how to answer. Thanks in advacne for any help!!!
Captain Pogue Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Michael, I don't have much to offer, I'm working with my wife on her period clothes. I'd be interested in having some distinction on this subject between common women of the time and ladies. My wife doesn't want to be a wench Pogue Conceptual Simplicity, Structural Complexity, Achieves a Greater State of humanity.
Capt. Sterling Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Mask, fan , muff, handkerchief for a lady off the top of my head. Sewing or embroidery items, penner and stationary if she can read and write and has some means to obtaining such instruments. Ladies of quality are often shown with musical instruments or some sort of pet in many of the fashion plates... Now mind you the following are more upper class...so it depends on your lady's choice... note the walking stick Also these plates are from the earlier GAoP...depending on where you set the opening date for the time frame As to poorer, more working class, take a look at the Town Criers images, and select some sort of wares for her to sell....makes for great demos and she always has something to carry and do.. Again, the cut of a mantua does not change drastically from class to class, but the choice of fabrics does and the length of the train appears to often be shorter and more workable for the lower or working classes... remember also that second hand clothing is a big business, at least in England during the time. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Capt. Sterling Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Some reading for the ladies as well... a bit of mind set/attitude A Gentle Woman's Companion, or Guide to the Female Sex perhaps by Hanna Wooley 1675 The Ladies's Dressing Room Unlock'd...Mary EVelyn, 1690. The Art of Charming 1697 A little something to get them started... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
michaelsbagley Posted January 14, 2008 Author Posted January 14, 2008 Thank you very much Capt. Sterling... You have managed to both give me a great start with your post, and inadvertantly(?) address another issue that has been knawing at my mind... The issue of the term "wench" being applied to all women of the period who aren't upper class or fine ladies. Capt. Pogue, please note the last three images... These are common women-folk, and NOT wenches. There are plenty of respectable (and good looking) impressions for a woman to do that aren't upper class, fine lady, or wench. I am getting the *vibe* that a lot of the women are resisting doing a more commoner impression for the period because they don't want to get labelled "wench". If the use of this term persists, we are going to have pirate re-enactments with tons of pirates, and a whole bunch of "ladies" with NO common women... Personally, I would love to see a lot fewer "ladies" and more common women (to dream the impossible dream And to be honest there are admittedly more and more common women impression being done by some of the ladies here, like Silkie and Cheeky)... And I have been gently coaxing my better half for months to get her comfortable with doing a more common women's impression. It's taken a LOT of work, but I am starting to feel like I am in the home stretch, I just don't want her to get labelled wench her first time out and have her suddenly reconsider dressing as anything but a lady. Please understand I am not angry or pissed or anything, I am just concerned about the VERY "rennie" term of "wench" being dragged into the re-enactment side of things where it is both innappropriate, and potentially harmful to the cause... Thanks again for your response Sterling! Can't wait to see how your other halfs garb turns out Capt. Pogue!
Capt. Sterling Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Don't know if this helps...but wench can mean a number of things... Online Etymology Dictionary - wench c.1290 wenche "girl or young woman," shortened from wenchel "child" (12c.), from O.E. wencel, probably related to wancol "unsteady, fickle, weak," and cognate with O.N. vakr "child, weak person," O.H.G. wanchal "fickle." The word degenerated through being used in ref. to servant girls, and by 1362 was being used in a sense of "woman of loose morals, mistress." The verb meaning "to associate with common women" is from 1599. Perhaps if more study of the word was done, then the gents would start to apply it more appropriately....as I see more men constantly using the term than women... As to Ladies... we allow those in our crewe that wish to ascend to such lofty heights to take turns at events, thus Cheeky plays the Actress/Mistress at some events and Bess the Indentured Servant at others... Bess is a hoot... and she works her tail off cooking, cleaning, feeding and doing exactly what she is told to do. Mad Mary portrays the widow of a wealthy merchant looking to trade with pirates when they come into port. The rest of the ladies in our crew opt for the more common impression and usually all of them only dress up in their best gowns for the balls we attend... personally, I have yet to attend a ball where any one stays in character so if this give the ladies a chance to get all decked out and have fun in their finery by all means I am for it then... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Captain Pogue Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Generally speaking you should never generalize and that's what I was doing. I think I tend toward the term wench because of something Cpt. Sterling pointed out about occupations. You've probably seen this too Michael with your gf. What woman wants to be a hat seller, or sell flowers while their significant other gets to be a pirate? I'd still use wench, despite your objections Michael, but only so far as to categorize a generic woman. And one that would associate with pirates, not necessarily a lower-class upstanding woman. I'll make sure to not throw the word around too loosely in the pub though, I understand some of the issues when dealing with an so regarding historically accurate issues like this. I think women that don't want to dress like a man kinda get the short end of the stick when it comes to what they can dress like. Piracy, along with the rest of the world, was so male dominated that we have to break from historical accuracy at some point to be able to include the women in our lives it seems. Especially, in some fashion that they would truly enjoy. My wife is going for a riding habit. I keep telling her to get a fowler. That seems to be the most likely weapon a lady wearing a riding habit would have. Did ladies go hunting back then, and do more than hang out while the boys went shooting at things? Are there any good images of ladies hunting and what stuff they might have? No worries, Pogue Conceptual Simplicity, Structural Complexity, Achieves a Greater State of humanity.
Capt. Sterling Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 What woman wants to be a hat seller, or sell flowers while their significant other gets to be a pirate? Actually that would cover all of the women in my crewe... in port ladies who work hard for their livelihoods. Skittles when not portraying the officers' laundress and semptstress is wanting to sell milk, Cheeky sells bread and beer, Lynette sell trinkets for the ladies, Silkie is wanting to run an ordinary, we have a tavern for her where she and Rats, when he isn't knife fighting with Maddogge or running around playing bosun can serve up all kinds of mischief... just to name a few. There are quiet a number of roles that women can portray at "in port" events... and these roles can be a lot of fun to carry out, and frankly they can be rather independent with these roles as well, they don't need a gent to see them around. Honestly I haven't heard any of the girls complaining about the guys being sailors/privateers/pirates/pyrate hunters and them "only being" hawkers... everyone wants to nibble on Cheeky's buns, what's not to enjoy? "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Capt. Sterling Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 These are taken from originals but are not so themselves And not to be argumentative... just want us all to get thinking about it, depending on the location and event, would a lady be walking around with a fowling piece? "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Captain Pogue Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 A Lady has to protect herself when she's amongst pirates and all that. mmm, buns! Are they hot? Conceptual Simplicity, Structural Complexity, Achieves a Greater State of humanity.
Capt. Sterling Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Have her ditch the gun...(yeah we all know you want her to have one so you can play with it... ) and get her a servant, some trunks and allow her to walk about claiming she has booked passage on one of the ships traveling to Port Royal to visit relatives on one of the plantations. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Capt. Sterling Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 mmm, buns! Are they hot? Extremely... and being captain, I am the only one that actually gets to nibble!! at least when they aren't green and moldy... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Captain Pogue Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Pretty obvious about the gun, huh??? I was thinking a servant would be good... adoption is a bit pricey though... Conceptual Simplicity, Structural Complexity, Achieves a Greater State of humanity.
Capt. Sterling Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Ah her servants gone and run off on her? What's a lady to do with her belongings? After all there might be pirates around, and other unsavory sorts... surely she can depend on the kindness of a big, strapping gent such as yerself... she can toss ye a coin or two for yer troubles of assisting her...and if ye play yer cards right... who knows what else she might be giving ye.... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
withoutaname Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 My girlfriend has been asking me about what types of things a lady of the period would have, and well to be honest, I haven't the slightest clue as to the material culture items that women would possess. Does anyone have any ideas? Or images they can share the links to or post here?I think she is thinking mostly personal items such as combs, brushes, other grooming items, popular knick knacks of the time (if any), any items a woman might pack while travelling, things she might keep at home. I know this is kind of vague, but I am really not sure how to answer. Thanks in advacne for any help!!! thank you for starting this thread. As I like being myself with a flair of fantasy , this is part of what I am working on myself so when I need to be more historically accurate historically accurate, I can be. So feedback is valued, and I thought this was a good place to talk about this since Michael's lady is also working through some of the same aspects. I am going for a common lady who ran away with the likes of a scoundrel (ahh love and how true to life...) but came from a merchant class family (father business man, trade of wine, and musical instruments) and a mother who was a mid-wife and healer as her mother before her. I have convinced myself aside from having a tendency to dress a little above my class from my upbringing and a base knowledge of medicinals from that time period I am able to adapt myself into this role, rather then a role I am not interested in as myself. Plus I can busy myself whenever with herbal lore and educating others about their ailments. Thea character background I am building gives me ability to have a few nice things that came with me such as my comb, small mirror, a few fine needles, some jewelry, plus an explaination of how I met someone outside of my class, managed to run away etc. The hardest part I am having is finding a suitable name. certain aspects we have figured out like last name, that is easy :) But first name is giving me challenges still... I am not lettin the men have all the fun on this one :) "It is more like I am transitioning from a pirate hobby to the pirate lifestyle"- me
michaelsbagley Posted January 14, 2008 Author Posted January 14, 2008 Generally speaking you should never generalize and that's what I was doing. I think I tend toward the term wench because of something Cpt. Sterling pointed out about occupations. You've probably seen this too Michael with your gf. What woman wants to be a hat seller, or sell flowers while their significant other gets to be a pirate? Actually, my other half loves period writing instrument, and is leaning towards being a clerk or secretary or something of that sort... Possibly a merchant's assistant running an erand on behalf of the merchant who doesn't want to deal directly with such unsavory folks as pirates, or perhaps, the a secretary acting on behalf of a smuggler too chicken to deal directly with pirates... Who knows... She'll work it out in her own time... I'd still use wench, despite your objections Michael, but only so far as to categorize a generic woman. And one that would associate with pirates, not necessarily a lower-class upstanding woman. I'll make sure to not throw the word around too loosely in the pub though, I understand some of the issues when dealing with an so regarding historically accurate issues like this. Please do use the term however much and in whatever context you feel appropriate... I was more raising the point to draw attention to the variety of common impressions possible for a women ro portray... I wasn't trying to single you out or thumb my nose at you. My wife is going for a riding habit. I keep telling her to get a fowler. That seems to be the most likely weapon a lady wearing a riding habit would have. Did ladies go hunting back then, and do more than hang out while the boys went shooting at things? Are there any good images of ladies hunting and what stuff they might have? And not to be argumentative... just want us all to get thinking about it, depending on the location and event, would a lady be walking around with a fowling piece? With a riding habit and a fowler (I tried talking Jessica into this, but she doesn't like guns particularly long arms), she could portray a lady out on a hunting or something like that who has come across the pirates and is curious, or is trying to strike a deal or any number of scenarios (although she would likely have attendants or company of some sort, but not neccessarily). It might not work in all scenarios (specially a port scenario), but for say a careening camp, it might not be that much of a stretch...
Capt. Sterling Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 I am not lettin the men have all the fun on this one :) Oh my dear, I am certain the ladies will chime in, in due time... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Cheeky Actress Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Now mind you the following are more upper class...so it depends on your lady's choice... Oooh, Pretty this one is! This plate has me written all over it, Captain! I love the details of extras in it....the servant and the Vizzar! And yes, MadMary...no bunny ears! Member of "The Forsaken"
Capt. Sterling Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 And yes, MadMary...no bunny ears! Thank God! "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Cheeky Actress Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Beign part of the 'middlesort' land lubbers... I must admit that Captain Sterling is correct when he mentions that their are a lot of 'parts' for a woman to play. I have three personas thus far...Actress, Hawker/Cryer, and Diver. I have yet had the chance to bring forth the Diver (pick-pocket) but I am sure she'll do just fine with the Pyrates! Just let the ladies in your crew know that they do have tons of choices! Member of "The Forsaken"
Mary Diamond Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Indeed! Lovely images, Captain, and thank you so much for the helpful insights as we all continue to develop our character. I daresay it is as helpful for the gents to read this as the ladies ~ the better to understand us by. Oooh, shiny!
Captain Pogue Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Capt. Sterling, your link for "The Art of Charming 1697" seems to be a bit off... Conceptual Simplicity, Structural Complexity, Achieves a Greater State of humanity.
Capt. Sterling Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Aye Capt. Pogue, right ye are... by seven years at least...not to mention being the entirely wrong link so much for not having one's spectacles near to hand first thing in the morning... lets try this instead my apologies "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Kate Souris Posted January 15, 2008 Posted January 15, 2008 I suppose that, in needing to know the answer to a rather difficult question, I should have perhaps posed it myself instead of sending Michael in to do my dirty work. Though my other half (note that I did not say 'better' ) wrote what I asked, that was not necessarily what was in my little brain. Having previously done viking re-enactment, we had all of the little details and accessories down to a 't', as it were. Combs, toiletries, utensils, crafting, etc. I did read through everything that Sterling posted (which...you nearly need an entirely separate language to interpret), I am still at a bit of a loss in regards to the general 'stuff' that a lady might have. I like accessories...more than the garb in most regards because I feel that the accessories are what actually makes it. Does that make any sort of sense? Like I wonder if a silver handled mirror would be appropriate? Or a silver comb with ivory teeth? Small crystal jars with powders and scented waters? I am gathering an understanding in regards to the period writing utensils, thanks to the Whydah exhibit and Michael's insistence on dragging us down there twice. The second time around, I noticed the brass dip pen, lead inkwell, and brass seals. And thankfully, I have a certain pirate making me a portable lapdesk that will keep everything contained nicely once I gather the needed supplies. Though I will keep looking and reading, if anyone has some artful direction that they can provide, that would be fantastic. Anything helps and everything is definately considered. Was I clearer, Michael?
Captain Pogue Posted January 15, 2008 Posted January 15, 2008 Actually, I am confused. You've got the accessories for ladies down, are you looking for more input as to what a woman of your station would have? I whole heartedly agree about about accessories making the outfit :angry: My wife thought this might be link might be useful. 1700s Rococo Oh, and welcome, Pogue Conceptual Simplicity, Structural Complexity, Achieves a Greater State of humanity.
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