Blacksmithing at PiP

[michaelsbagley]

I'm going to move some of my comments from the other thread over here to help keep info cohesive and together....

First off the pics of the forge at the Fort, willfully pirated from William Red Wake's photobucket site...

And lastly the tools

[michaelsbagley]

Oh, I almost forgot about the Blacksmith setup? Did that fly last year? I went back and had a look at the old thread about it...

Original Blacksmith thread - part 1

Original Blacksmith thread - part 2

Both from the same thread...

I have a rather modest selection of blacksmith tools that I can loan to the cause... But my tools are precious to me (many are antique and 100 to 150 years old) and I would want to make sure who ever used them took all due care of them. Broken wooden handles are not a concern, those have mostly been replaced anyways, and are easy matter to repair... But cracked metal from overly heavy use would devastate me.

If there is no smith available, I could even take a turn at the forge... I am by no means a good smith, and all of my metal working experience is with propane forges rather than good old coal or charcoal forges... But I am good enough to make a basic knife or other more simple things.

Does the squirrel cage blower still work well? It looks pretty old and rusty, without a blower of some variety that forge is not of much use....

Don't feel like your butting in at all Dorian! cool.gif

Bellows are not very difficult to make at all, I've made a few sets of small hand belows (suited to a home fireplace or small camp fire)...

But, bellows to keep a forge of that size going are going to need to be very large, and will either need to be made locally in the keys (and most likely from obviously wrong materials, such as ply-wood), or the metal hand crank blower (which is from a later period) will need to be used.

So ultimately it is a matter of being a not too difficult of a project, but most likely too impractical because of the materials needed and the size of the finished project.

That is kind of what the whole issue is...

IF myself winds up doing the blacksmith demo... I only have the ability to do simple demos... But the forge is set up to be a full blown forge... So it is going to be like using a 6 pound shot canon for fowling...

Whoever does the blacksmith thing either has to bring just tools and use the massive forge, or bring tools and a smaller portable forge... Either use too much power for a small project, or too much lugging stuff for practicality...

Too much power for the small project is the easiest way to go, and that is my guess as to what will happen... Which is still great and could add a lot to the whole PiP experience. As long as the hand crank blower works... I've seen rougher shaped blowers that work great, but I have also seen better looking ones that are completely gummed up inside and worthless.

[Harry]

The blacksmith shop can be open for this year's event. We've just acquired a bunch of new tools. Not only that, we will have an actual blacksmith available. He used to work up at Saint Augustine with the National Park Service and has made numerous artifacts at that forge.

[Dorian Lasseter]

The Forge...

Could some bellows be made?

Something like this;

http://www.rurallife.plus.com/rlc/download/forge.gif

Aye...

Hmmm... there lies the rub...

It would be grand to see a working forge of the time period. I know of a couple folks for F&I (1750-60s) that have portable forges with the bellows, mind you, they do little demos, not full on forging...

[William Brand]

Nothing would please me more than to see three or four lads and lasses at the forge during the events. The ring of the hammers carrying over the fort and the encampments would add greatly to the festival and I have always felt that the forge is one of our best untapped points of interest at the fort, it being almost central to the foot traffic to and from the fort, parking lots and encampments. Not only would it prove educational and inviting to all ages, but the products made there could enrich the fort pub and the encampments greatly. We could make tongs, vent picks, baling hooks, hoops, strikers, knapping hammers, hearth hooks, nails, baldric hardwear, shackles, tent staves, pokers, and all matter of goods there.

[Misson]

Nothing would please me more than to see three or four lads and lasses at the forge during the events.  The ring of the hammers carrying over the fort and the encampments would add greatly to the festival and I have always felt that the forge is one of our best untapped points of interest at the fort, it being almost central to the foot traffic to and from the fort, parking lots and encampments.  Not only would it prove educational and inviting to all ages, but the products made there could enrich the fort pub and the encampments greatly.  We could make tongs, vent picks, baling hooks, hoops, strikers, knapping hammers, hearth hooks, nails, baldric hardwear, shackles, tent staves, pokers, and all matter of goods there.

...surgeon's needs.

I want a saw like the one Woodall shows.

Woodall's drawing: http://antiquescientifica.com/saw_amputati...s_Mate_1639.jpg

An actual saw like this: http://antiquescientifica.com/saw_amputati..._wb_overall.jpg

Can anyone make that?

[William Brand]

I can...but it will cost you.

[Silkie McDonough]

I can...but it will cost you.

An arm and a leg ...and I am sure he can get them too.

[michaelsbagley]

Theoretically.... Sure..

Realistically... No...

Most of those parts look cast, which is a very different process than smithing. I have seen and heard of smiths with the level of ability to make pieces that ornate through blacksmithing, but they are rare and rather expensive to hire...

But I know my modest skills come no where near that level. Are there any more simply shaped objects that your medicine chest may require?

Nice looking saw though... I could conceivably make the blade portion of something like that, just not the handle portion, which is what I am guessing you are in most need of.

[William Brand]

I can...but it will cost you.

An arm and a leg ...and I am sure he can get them too.

Gory and funny both.

Like my fridge.

[Silkie McDonough]

Anything that can be made and donated to the ordinary would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps we could work somethings out in barter.

[Misson]

I can...but it will cost you.

Really? How much? How will you make it? Sandcast?

[Littleneckhalfshell]

Mission, what are the fancy loop things on each top end of the saw? Thumb loops?

The picture of the saw does not look sand cast to me, it is a fine job if it is in steel or iron, but that is what it looks like to me. Do you know the material of the saw in question? Some old tools, even wood working tools of the period show a craftsmans love of detail and decoration. They took real pride in their work. I believe the saw to be just the fine art of a toolmaker. Saw is thumbscrew wingnut tightened from the looks of it, the only thing throwing me is those fancy loops up top.

[Misson]

It would almost certainly have been iron or steel. As for the top loops, I couldn't say. They are what I like about it, though.

It doesn't shed much light, but the description for the saw reads thusly:

"A very early capital amputation saw from Jacobean England. The saw is impressed with the H mark of Robert Hobbs, London, fl. c. 1606-1621. Instruments by Hobbs are believed to be the earliest extant English maker-marked surgical instruments. John Woodall, The Surgeon's Mate, London: 1639, illustrates an identical Dismembering saw in a plate titled: Instruments for the East India Company's chest. 25" long. The instrument comes from the estate of an elderly New England couple who were interested in early American ironwork, and it is believed that the saw has been in North American since colonial times. This is precisely the surgical saw that one would expect to have been used by Giles Heale, a member of the Barber-Surgeon's Company and the ship's surgeon on the Mayflower, and by Samuel Fuller, the surgeon of Plymouth Colony. No other example of a Hobbs saw is known to exist in any American collection. 25" long."

Here is the web page. There are several more pics, including close-ups of the loops: http://antiquescientifica.com/archive46.htm Notice the pitting in the close-up pics?

Other large period bone saws do not show the things on top, so I can't quite understand where it would serve a practical purpose or they probably would have continued to make them that way. Surgeons did have to perform amputations very quickly (several resources suggest in under two minutes from first cut to ligature (tying of silk cords to the now exposed veins), so one might make the argument that the loops would allow for faster cutting if a surgeon had help. Of course, most of the help would have been employed in holding down the patient according to various books on the topic from the time.

The loops may have been a mark of the maker or some such. In his book, The Evolution of Surgical Instruments; An Illustrated History from Ancient Time to the Twentieth Century, John Kirkup notes that earlier surgical instruments had more ornamentation than later instruments. I'm guessing that this may have been to designate them as something other than what they really were...pirated carpenter's tools. Kirkup even notes that in a pinch, say if the surgeon was out of blades, he would sometimes use the ship's carpenter's saw. (A saw is a saw...unless you want to show it off at PiP. )

Actually, I'll bet I could sell a handful of them on eBay if they were priced right. Or maybe not. Hard to say.

[hurricane]

I believe they are for fingers or thumbs to help guide the saw, particularly with the first swipes through the skin and bone. I have similar drawings from Randle Homes Academy of Armory that shows a more ornate saw.

This is in forme and fashion like the Ioyners Tenant Saw, onely this hath the handle and the back all made of Iron worke: with this bones are Sawed asunder, when either a Legg, or Arme is to be taken off. By the benefite of a Screw, the Saw plate is made either strait, or more loose, in the iron frame.

This one's my favorite...

The Terebellum, or Terebellum with a Screw, is an hollow pipe, with a square shouldering and two handles like to the Forceps, through which Pipe goeth a long Piercer, with a most sharp Worm, or Screw at the end, which being conveyed into a wound made by a Gun-shot by the help of the Pipe in which it is hidden, when the Bullet is felt in the Wounds, then the Piercer is Screwed out of the Pipe into the Bullet, by which meanes it is drawn out, and the wound healed.

-- Hurricane

[Misson]

This is in forme and fashion like the Ioyners Tenant Saw, onely this hath the handle and the back all made of Iron worke: with this bones are Sawed asunder, when either a Legg, or Arme is to be taken off. By the benefite of a Screw, the Saw plate is made either strait, or more loose, in the iron frame.

Interesting. That seems at odds with the necessity for speed that several authors talk about. Speed of amputation seemed to be required during battles because of the number of wounded and to save patients from unnecessary pain. (Such saws were made long before anesthesia.) What's the source of that quote? It sounds like it might be a useful resource...

[hurricane]

The work is Randle Holme's Academy of Armory, which is an encyclopedia of goods from 17th century life. It was published in 1688. He drew and described all sorts of things during his lifetime, including all the tools used by surgeons, carpenters, potters, ropemakers and such, along with machinery, musical instruments, bird calls and conjuring tricks. All told, there are more than 2500 images from his large work of drawings and descriptions. It's very cool. Took me forever to track down since it's been out of print for quite a while.

-- Hurricane

[Misson]

Cool. That would be dead useful to a blacksmith... I wonder if it's available on EEBO?

[michaelsbagley]

The work is Randle Holme's Academy of Armory, which is an encyclopedia of goods from 17th century life. It was published in 1688. He drew and described all sorts of things during his lifetime, including all the tools used by surgeons, carpenters, potters, ropemakers and such, along with machinery, musical instruments, bird calls and conjuring tricks. All told, there are more than 2500 images from his large work of drawings and descriptions. It's very cool. Took me forever to track down since it's been out of print for quite a while.

-- Hurricane

Actually, I noticed Hurricane mention this publication on another thread in Twill some weeks back... And promptly went out and ordered a copy for myself....

It arrived promptly within a few days of my ordering it (even though I ordered my copy from the UK through Amazon), but it was delivered to my home in Columbus.... And I have been in Toronto for the entire last month... So I won't actually get to see it and go through it until I get back home next week....

[hurricane]

That's the easiest way to get it too. I originally tried to order if from Canada but they couldn't ship me a copy because of copyright issues and referred me to a US university. They didn't have it in stock anymore so I went to amazon.uk and they sent it to me.

Since it was optimized to work on Windows, I had to jig it a bit since I am on a Mac. I ended up just downloading the entire source folder to my hard drive and now everything links perfectly using my Web browser. But it should auto run on Windows.

Quite remarkable, since many of these items are fairly mundane (hats, for instance) that others may have overlooked them. The only caveat is that these were drawn over the course of his lifetime so you have to do a bit of weeding out historically about what belongs in the earlier part of the century, what is late 1600s and what would still be applicable to those in GAoP.

-- Hurricane

[michaelsbagley]

Had I known I could get it in Canada, I could have ordered it from there, saved on shipping, and had it delivered to a friend or family's place, and could have been happily perusing it for the last month!

I guessed much of the info contained would be a bit early for use for GAoP, but I have been starting to look at re-enacting various other parts of the 17th century as well, so I thought it would be the best resource for that... Still, it looks like a great resource and I can't wait to have a good look through my copy. Thanks for mentioning it in the first place Hurricane, it sounds great!

[Duchess]

This is in forme and fashion like the Ioyners Tenant Saw, onely this hath the handle and the back all made of Iron worke: with this bones are Sawed asunder, when either a Legg, or Arme is to be taken off. By the benefite of a Screw, the Saw plate is made either strait, or more loose, in the iron frame.

Interesting. That seems at odds with the necessity for speed that several authors talk about. Speed of amputation seemed to be required during battles because of the number of wounded and to save patients from unnecessary pain. (Such saws were made long before anesthesia.) What's the source of that quote? It sounds like it might be a useful resource...

How is that at odds with speed?

Wouldn't that little screw thing be much like the same little screw thing on today's hacksaws? Enabling the user to choose the tension of the blade and/or possibly replace the blade.

My first guess about the loops was something akin to what Hurricane said. I was thinking they were perhaps for guiding or maybe pulling if the blade got stuck. Makes me shiver to think it.

[hurricane]

Having the thumb guides would definitely prevent the thing from wobbling back and forth as much on the center axis I would think... it would be much less painful that way and a much cleaner cut.

-- Hurricane

[Harry]

Well, we fired up the forge today during our CW Living History day. It was most excellent with all the new tools. We hammered out a bunch of nails and other goodies for tentage and such. So, those who wish to partake in 'smithing this year will have a ball. I hope to have enough basic stock on hand so you can hammer out what you need.

[Misson]

This is in forme and fashion like the Ioyners Tenant Saw, onely this hath the handle and the back all made of Iron worke: with this bones are Sawed asunder, when either a Legg, or Arme is to be taken off. By the benefite of a Screw, the Saw plate is made either strait, or more loose, in the iron frame.

Interesting. That seems at odds with the necessity for speed that several authors talk about. Speed of amputation seemed to be required during battles because of the number of wounded and to save patients from unnecessary pain. (Such saws were made long before anesthesia.) What's the source of that quote? It sounds like it might be a useful resource...

How is that at odds with speed?

Wouldn't that little screw thing be much like the same little screw thing on today's hacksaws? Enabling the user to choose the tension of the blade and/or possibly replace the blade.

My first guess about the loops was something akin to what Hurricane said. I was thinking they were perhaps for guiding or maybe pulling if the blade got stuck. Makes me shiver to think it.

My thought is that you would start the cut with the handle and then have to switch to the thumb grips (or whatever you call them). Then you would have to re-align the blade in relationship to the cut and all that. However, if you started with the thumb grips, I suppose the speed and re-alignment would not be issues. Still, it would seem to me to require more precision (and thus time) when starting the first cuts into the bone. If the patient was squirming (and I sure would be) or the ship were moving (as it frequently was) that might make alignment take longer. Or you might get really good at it, as mastery of all tools requires, and I could be all wet. It's just my gut level reaction to the thing - I'd use the handle as it seems faster.

In his book The Evolution of Surgical Instruments; An Illustrated History from Ancient Time to the Twentieth Century, John Kirkup makes no mention of the thumb grips from my notes. As I recall it, none of the saws he shows have them other than the Woodall drawing featuring them, making me think they were not that useful to the surgeon. Of course, evolution is a chancy thing and they might have disappeared for other reasons. It's really just conjecture on my part. One does wonder why a saw with no handle and nothing but thumb grips didn't develop for amputation if this method was superior.

Curiously, the quote I had in the back of my mind when I first started considering this is somewhat at odds with what I thought it said. (If you look back, I was talking about ornamentation):

"Later, decoration became excessive, and in 1684, Solingen complained that many instruments were worthless, not only because of inferior iron, brittle steel, and a lack of vital proportions, but because they were ‘welded with such awkward angles, corners and unnecessary ornamentation. Solingen proceeded to improve and streamline manufacture, much as Woodall had anticipated in his instrument illustrations in 1639.” (Kirkup, p. 158)

Extrapolating from this, Kirkup seems to be suggesting that the loops may have indeed been useful because Woodall left them on in his "streamlined" design. (I had thought he was complaining about Woodall's designs being too ornamental, but hadn't looked up the quote to verify that.) Still, they did disappear from surgical saws between the time of Woodall's publishing of that picture (1639) and the late 18th century. (lest I belabor that point ).