Captain Midnight Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Please forgive me if this has already been discussed. I have noticed that the dominant sleeve style for these jackets is a straight cuff, but could there be other styles of cuff and pocket flaps as well? I noticed on the Bonaventure web site a gentleman wearing a short coat with large turned back cuffs similar to a justacourp's sleeves. Could there have been styles and colors other than what the government slop contracts specified, such as a privately made or purchased version of the jacket? Does anyone have pics of various sleeve and pocket flap styles? Thanks in advance! "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Captain Midnight, If you take a look at Foxe's Mariners' pictures, you'll find a lot of variations in sleeve ends on jackets. There are sleeves that have buttons on the backseam (the progenitor of the "Mariner's cuff" of the late 18th century). There are turnback cuffs (which were so popular in the English Civil War era). And there are even the rare dog ear. I'd shy away from dog ears, though. They aren't terribly practical for mariners and that explains the reason why they are in the vast minority in the pictorial record of seamen and working men. Speaking of working men, here are some pictures (from Marcellus Laroon's Cryers and Hawkers of London) of common men who aren't seamen. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 That's no gentleman on the Bonaventure site! (It's me) I made that jacket in a hurry, and I copied the first picture that came to my fingertips. It happens to be the only picture I've ever seen with cuffs that style on a jacket that style (damned if I can find it now, but someone else posted it not so long ago IIRC). It is correct, but they weren't common. I've since taken those cuffs off and replaced them with buttons down the underside of the arm. Could there have been styles and colors other than what the government slop contracts specified, such a a privately made or purchased version of the jacket? Damn right there could! The post-1706 slop contracts are great because they give us a lot of detail about what was "typical", such as the rough number of buttons, the kinds of materials used, whether garments had pockets etc. They also provide us with a good "blueprint" of something we know existed - to a much greater extent than almost anything else except for actual surviving garments. However, they were not the be-all-and-end-all. We've got references to blue jackets, red jackets, white jackets, striped jackets, and it's safe to assume that they were made in whatever colour fabric was available. In terms of fabrics we've got records of wool(s), linen, canvas, fustian. Styles would have been similar (two sleeves, shortish etc), but would certainly have varied from maker to maker. The slop contract jackets were supposed to be made to an approved pattern so they were probably more or less the same, but private clothiers supplying non-RN seamen were free to make jackets however they pleased. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted December 1, 2006 Author Share Posted December 1, 2006 Thank you, Foxe and Kass! I gather that it would be safe to use scalloped pocket flaps, but would a straight cuff with scalloped edges be o.k. for the GAoP? Is that what a "mariner's cuff" is? A scallop-edged straight cuff with buttons? "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I've not seen scalloped cuff edges in the GAoP that I recall... doesn't mean they didn't exist, but I wouldn't do it myself. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCholeBlack Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 do we know what the slop contract makers were "given"? Ie, were they given the list like we use and went from there or were they given more physical examples, like the fashion babies of the time? I'm wondering if some of the variations we hear about couldn't be attributed to a sort of makers interpretation. "If part of the goods be plundered by a pirate the proprietor or shipmaster is not entitled to any contribution." An introduction to merchandize, Robert Hamilton, 1777Slightly Obsessed, an 18th Century reenacting blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Yeah, Midnight, I have to agree with Foxe here. I haven't seen true Mariners' cuffs (scalloped flaps) this early so I would avoid doing them until about 1740ish. I would also step carefully with scallops on the pocket flaps. Of course that depends if you're doing early or late GAoP. In the 1680s and 1690s, the pocket flaps are typically simple rectangles. Scalloped pocket flaps are a little hit or miss until the 1720s. Which, of course, is still GAoP. You just have to decide that bit for yourself. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Chole, examples of each garment were sent to the major ports and naval bases so that ship's officers could compare the stuff they were being supplied with the "approved" version. In theory, then, all the ASC garments should have been more or less identical. And Whereas Patterns of the Cloathes to be issued by Mr. Harnage and MR. Franklin aforesaid are to be lodged with the Storekeepers at the severall Ports of Deptford, Woolwich, Chatham, Sheerness, Harwich, Deale, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Kinsale and Lisbon; You are upon the coming aboard of these Cloathes to have recourse to the said Patterns, and take care that both they and the Cloathes, be viewed by Your Self, the Master, Boatswain and Purser of the Ship under your Command; and that the Cloathes do in all respects agree with the Patterns, and that they are not inferior to them in Goodness note: "patterns" here almost certainly refers to made up examples rather than the paper patterns we would associate with the word. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Correct me if I'm wrong, Foxe, but do you think the fact that the Slop Contracts were issued and reissued and changed so frequently indicates that they were not being adhered to by the Slopmakers? Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted December 1, 2006 Author Share Posted December 1, 2006 Yeah, Midnight, I have to agree with Foxe here. I haven't seen true Mariners' cuffs (scalloped flaps) this early so I would avoid doing them until about 1740ish.I would also step carefully with scallops on the pocket flaps. Of course that depends if you're doing early or late GAoP. In the 1680s and 1690s, the pocket flaps are typically simple rectangles. Scalloped pocket flaps are a little hit or miss until the 1720s. Which, of course, is still GAoP. You just have to decide that bit for yourself. Point taken, thanks Kass and Foxe. Since my impression lies somewhere between 1680 and 1700, would I be safer to wear a jacket more akin to the ones worn during the English Civil War? "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Nah, I don't think you need go that far, Midnight. I think you'd be fine making the jacket with buttons on the back sleeve seam and simple rectangular flaps on your pockets. Nothing fancy. If you err on the side of the simple, you'll never be wrong. The English Civil War ended thirty to fifty years before your time period. So kinda think about it as your father's generation if that helps. It's familiar to you, but "old fashioned". By the 1680s men's fashions had changed drastically from those of the 1640s and it was evident even in the lower orders. Check out the pictures I posted links to. They are a gold mine of information! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted December 1, 2006 Author Share Posted December 1, 2006 Thanks Kass. I fancy the jacket in the drawing from the armorial bearings which are dated from 1718. It has plain sleeves but a slightly scalloped pocket flap. If need be, I will move my impression forward just a bit to accomodate the use of this jacket. I haven't progressed so far into the development of my persona that it would hurt anything to do so. I have all of my weapons and accoutrements, but no clothing just yet except my Montero cap... "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 That sounds perfect, Midnight! I have to admit that I often build my impression around a piece of clothing. Go figure... Good luck with it! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Correct me if I'm wrong, Foxe, but do you think the fact that the Slop Contracts were issued and reissued and changed so frequently indicates that they were not being adhered to by the Slopmakers? I don't think it does. A new contract every 8-11 years doesn't seem unreasonable. Add to the fact that each contract of the GAoP was given to the same group of people: 1706 - Harnage and Franklin 1717 - Harnage 1725 - Franklin The 1731 contract went to a new contractor, but since the same people had held the contract for 25 years it's not surprising. The latter contract was specified for a stipulated time of 5 years at least and required 12 months notice of termination. Having said all that there are occasional glimpses of non-regulation clothing being sent aboard ships by the slop sellers. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I'm good to you people! If pocket flaps of sailors' jackets are of interest to you then I suppose I'd better share this picture that I was keeping for myself until I'd got round to replicating it. Pocket flap recovered from HMS Stirling Castle, 1703 Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Hmmmm... 2/2 twill ground with embroidery... looks like embroidered with threads pulled from the same cloth... Are those centimeters on the bottom there? Nice one, Foxe! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Yar, they're centimetres. I don't know whether the embroidery was originally the same colour as the fabric - don't suppose you know the effects of 300 years of sea-water on 18thC dyes? Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Hee! Never thought of that... Although it wasn't the colour that made me think the embroidery threads were pulled from the cloth. It was the look of the threads. They appear to be the same thickness and twist as the pocket flap. :) Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted December 4, 2006 Author Share Posted December 4, 2006 I like the shape, too. It appears to be slightly scalloped. "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Yup. It sure does. Just a little bit. And the top is a good 4-6cm narrower than the bottom. :) Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted December 4, 2006 Author Share Posted December 4, 2006 What about buttons (decorative) on the flaps? "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Good question, Midnight. Obviously this extant flap has no buttons, so that makes the argument against them. Even if buttons had been attached to this flap and were lost, there would still be evidence that they were there. But buttons usually aren't on the flaps; they're on the pocket beneath. The buttonholes are on the flap, and there are definitely none of those here. That's not to say other sailor's jackets didn't have buttons on the pockets... On most of the short jackets in the pictorial record, we can't see the pockets well enough to tell. So that's no help. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumba Rue Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 As for someone who does needlepoint, yes those threads are pulled from the material. Very impressive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted December 4, 2006 Author Share Posted December 4, 2006 Good question, Midnight. Obviously this extant flap has no buttons, so that makes the argument against them. Even if buttons had been attached to this flap and were lost, there would still be evidence that they were there.But buttons usually aren't on the flaps; they're on the pocket beneath. The buttonholes are on the flap, and there are definitely none of those here. That's not to say other sailor's jackets didn't have buttons on the pockets... On most of the short jackets in the pictorial record, we can't see the pockets well enough to tell. So that's no help. Kass, weren't these buttons mostly decorative? I mean, they sometimes didn't actually button the flap down did they? I'm just asking these questions so that I can correctly build a proper historical jacket. As you have probably figured out already, I kind of like the buttons on the pockets... But would it be ok on a sailor's jacket? "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Well, Midnight, we can't really say if the buttons on sailor's jackets were purely decorative because we simply don't have any sailor's jackets extant. So there goes the best kind of source. However on the extant coats we have from the period (which are arguably MUCH higher class than these), buttons are sometimes decorative. But even on those coats, most of the buttons on the coats are functional. Usually it's the buttons on the backs of the sleeves that are purely decorative, not the pocket flaps. In the Admiralty Slop Contracts, a certain number of buttons are specified. And frankly, buttons are expensive. You don't put them on a common sailor's outfit just for pretty. At least the Royal Navy wouldn't! So I would expect the buttons on these common men's jackets to be functional or not to be there at all. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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