Capt. "Mad Dog" Davies Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Any of ye swabs interested in discussing pirate fighting skills and weaponry; historic, reenacting, or theatrical? I meself be open to any related topic, be it swords, knives, pistols, muskets, cudgels, boarding actions, dueling, or land assaults (after all, they don't call me "Mad Dog" fer nuthin'!). "I've clinched and closed with many a foe, I've learned to defy and defend, Shoulder to shoulder we'll fight it out, But the strongest must win in the end." Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood, LINY Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood "The Code of Our Brotherhood is Better than all the Lies of Nations!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 For the most part pirates hated fighting and avoided it whenever possible. For example, the legendary Bartholomew Roberts who took over 400 ships, only actually duked it out with a few of those. The rest struck colors based on his badass rep alone. So I guess you could say that a pirate's reputation would be his most trusty weapon! However, when pirates did fight, they were nasty foes for sure. Many of the buccaneers were reknowned marksmen from years of hunting wild pigs on Hispaniola. And as many many pirates were ex-navy they must have been well schooled in boardings and gunnery too. Pirates are SO cool aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Mad Dog, this topic is right up me alley! (I read the first volume of "Boarders Away", by the by). Yes, I'm interested in all aspects of pirate gunnery, musketry, swordfighting, etc., from Elizabethan times to Jean Lafitte! Some ideas for conversation starters: - Pirates rarely sank vessels (why destroy your prize?) unless they were attacked by a stronger adversary. - The way to sink a vessel is to hit it at the waterline: belay that shooting at rigging! - Shooting at rigging, anti-personnel gunnery, firing over the bow, etc., are the tactics to be used when you want to capture the other ship. - Thrusting beats slashing in a swordfight, as a general rule, but not in the narrow confines of shipboard battles. - A good cutlass is a better weapon than a singleshot fiream at close quarters. - Pirates tended to avoide fighting if they could; it's all a business, and it's not business-like to damage the merchandise, or to get yourself hurt or killed in the process of acquiring it. Thoughts, comments, criticisms, observations, on my ideas? :) Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Flint Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Based on my reading ,I have to agree that fighting it out was not the way of choice for most pirates. However, that does not mean to say, that pirates would not fight it out. Just the opposite; if they felt they had to, they would fight as hard as possible. According to history, Blackbeard even went so far as to duke it out with a british man-o-war. As far as other fighting goes;what do you want to discuss? I myself have done a large variety of sword fighting. I have fought with shanai, light ren blades, heavy ren blades, and even full steel combat. I have also fought with mace, pike, pole arm, sword and shield ,as well as florentine style fighting. All of this was done as true as possible. That is to say, there was no stageing about it. So......... pick a subject and lets hear your thoughts. I am only to happy to discuss the subject more. ....... The Capt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. "Mad Dog" Davies Posted May 4, 2003 Author Share Posted May 4, 2003 I agree with you all on most counts. But as far as pirates' willingness to fight, I don't think it was so cut-and-dried as some would make it out to be. Pirates came from many walks of life, and became pirates through a wide variety of circumstances. This in turn produced a wide variety of motivations, from desperation and survival, to greed, revenge, and outright psychosis. Historical contexts also need to be addressed. Buccaneering in the 17th C. saw action at sea as well as large scale amphibious operations (eg. the sacking of Panama). Spain was everyone's enemy and every pirate's target. Piracy in the Golden Age of the early 18th C. saw a rise in pirate flotillas, increased merchant traffic across the Atlantic, the expansion of the British Royal Navy, and many other factors that made it a very different time than that which the Buccaneers lived in. Pirates of this time were at war with the whole world, and the world with them. Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood "The Code of Our Brotherhood is Better than all the Lies of Nations!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Absolutely. I would say that the average mid-1600's buccaneer lived a much more violent and combat-filled life than the 1700's pirate who spent 2-3 years capturing merchants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Capt. Flint; My swordfighting has been restricted to Olympic epee, and SCA rapier. What are light Ren and heavy Ren styles like? Also, have you any experience with singlestick, or with any style of cutlass fighting? Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Flint Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Capt. William.... light ren is a light rapier blade. I personally use a schlager blade for this fighting. Heavy ren is a much wider rapier blade, but, still under one inch. This blade I had made for just that purpose. Both blades must be able to flex well and be blunted as they are allowed to be thrusted. I do not know what single stick fighting is, and yes I have done some ( a little) fighting with a cutlass style weapon. I found it to be a lot of fun, but, extremely different to the heavy steel fighting that I am used to. The Capt.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastie04 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Well, as much as I love watching swordfights, the only stuff I've really done was as crew of the Lady Washington. To pass the time away at night, a few of us made boffers out of PVC pipe, insulation, and lots of duct tape. I'd say it was probably much like some pirates, as we were young, looking for adventure on the high seas, and afraid of nothing. Occasionally, if there were people around, they would ask if we learned to fight on the ship as well as sail, so I guess it looked pretty good. However, if anyone has any suggestions (besides taking any sort of swordfighting classes) that would make it even better, I'd love to hear 'em. Coastie04 She was bigger and faster when under full sail With a gale on the beam and the seas o'er the rail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. "Mad Dog" Davies Posted May 5, 2003 Author Share Posted May 5, 2003 Ahoy Shipmates! I've been seeing postings here that refer to cutlass "style", and I'd like to point out that there's a difference between "style" and "technique". Style implies some sort of organized body of specific proven methods. Cutlass fighting was more like a bar brawl, on wet rolling decks littered with debris and bodies. The technique involved meant learning how best to use the cutlass to one's advantage, usually in conjunction with punches, kicks, grappling, throws, and/or some sort of cudgle. The British Navy during the 19th C. implimented a set of training drills for the cutlass, but they were based on fencing techniques, and pretty ineffective by my estimation. One of the cutlass's greater attributes was it's psychological effect, especially in the hands of pirates, very like confronting a maniac wielding a machete or meat cleaver. It was very intimidating, and the cutlass didn't even have to be that sharp to deliver horrendous wounds, and everyone knew it. What really matters in any form of sword fighting is a correct synchronization of sword movement, body movement, footwork, and breathing. They are all interdependant, and disregarding any one of these elements cancels the others out, and ultimately the swordsman or woman as well. (For more on this I again refer to my article, NQG Sept. '02). Also, I'd like to point out that although the cutlass was the most efficient blade weapon for use at sea, and the one we most associate with pirates, it was not the only one, by far. Rapiers, small swords, and a variety of basket hilted swords would also be found, depending on period and personal preferences. I myself would (and do) own several types of swords that would have been carried in the later 17th C., the period Ye Pyrate Brotherhood re-enacts. My all-around favorite is a "mortuary" sword, a straight-bladed cavalry sword of the period. It's light, fast, tough, short enough for use at sea, and long enough to keep an opponant at a safe killing distance in a tavern fight. It's capable of delivering a cut or thrust with equal effectiveness and has a cage guard of iron knuckle bars to both protect the hand and land a solid punch. Very nice indeed. Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood "The Code of Our Brotherhood is Better than all the Lies of Nations!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Capt. Flint, What little I know about singlestick is that it is a sabre style of fighting with straight broom-like wooden swords that was popular in the 19th century (Sherlock Holmes was described as an accomplished singlestick player). It has been superseded in the 20th century by Olympic style fencing with light metal blades. Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 Many good ideas are being put forth here, shipmates. Yes, I'm having me doubts that any metal or wooden or rattan weapons (that would include singlestick, SCA heavy, the Chinese broadswords someone mentioned as having the ideal heft, as well as ANY sort of steel or aluminum blades) are practical to use with a 3-weapon fencing mask. OK, real life cutlass fighting was all-out and included kicking and grappling and all that: but I'm not interested in getting all that authentic, just in learning to simulate something of what our brethren of old would have experienced. I'm thinking that probably a dry (non-electric) Olympic sabre is the way to go, UNLESS you're willing to wear a real helmet, along with all the other accoutrements such as hockey gloves, and thickly padded, or metal, body armour. Any blokes out there done any sabre fencing? I've done some foil and epee. Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Flint Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 Capt. William. On the first part of your comments....If you want to try some real life cutlass fighting without ALL the real life stuff that went with it; I think Capt. Davies said it best. Get yourself a good pair of gloves and work at it ( I know those were not your exact words capt.) I found it smart to still protect your hands. Building yourself a light pair of fighting gloves is very easy. Start with a good fitting welders glove and then get some strong but flexible leather. You will need to build yourself a plate to go across the back of the hand and then you build leather plates pyramid style down the arm of the glove. rivet your leather together, but, use chicago screws to fasten it to the gloves so that repairs can be done easily without destroying the glove. This is the style I built mine in and i asure you, they are light flexible, do not get in the way of anything, and protect my hands against everything from shanai to heavy rapier blades. As far as sabre fencing, sorry, I haven't ever fenced before. I have a huge amount of experience with sword fighting with a vast array of weapons, but, no fencing experience. Have fun... The Capt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 I'm goint to start practicing sabre fencing at the gym where I take epee lessons. I'm not interested in sabre competition but want to get the feel of cut-style fighting. Of course, Olympic fencing blades are so light that they don't well-simulate a real cutlass; but at least this way I'll be able to get the feel of the moves, without having to buy any additional protective gear (I already have the glove, jacket, cups, and 3-weapon mask. Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. "Mad Dog" Davies Posted May 12, 2003 Author Share Posted May 12, 2003 Ahoy mates! In my earlier postings regarding cutlass fighting, I did not mean to suggest just grabbing cutlasses and having at it. So, before any cutlass-happy yahoo out there gets themself hauled off by the King's men for involuntary manslaughter, I now want to suggest that you can learn cutlass fighting, with a working cutlass, safely, and without encumbering armor (after all we're pirates, not knights). As I said in an earlier posting, there are mechanics involved. Learn and practice them, alone, and slowly, gradually building speed as muscle memory develops. To borrow a concept from Japanese martial arts, invent some plausable kata (fight scenarios, for those who don't know what kata are), and work them out. Start with simple one-on-one situations, and build up to multiple opponents. Number the individual actions involved and, count them off as you execute them (referring to the steps, not hapless onlookers). Eventually, partners can learn the separate parts and perform them together, safely, at the same time really getting to see how it all works. The key is to start slow, develop precision, and let speed happen as you gradually get to know your weapon and what your doing with it. Finally, I must again stress that each type of sword should be experienced within the context of its own design and intended function. The cutlass is not a fencing weapon, nor is fencing anything even remotely like cutlass fighting. Cordially, Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood "The Code of Our Brotherhood is Better than all the Lies of Nations!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Good ideas, Mad Dog. But, I'd still strongly recommend proper eye protection, such as a 3-weapons fencing mask. I almost learned the hard way when I was learning rapier. An experiences rapier fighter wanted to demonstrate a technique on me. When I started to put on my mask, he said, "Oh, don't worry! You won't need that: I'm just going to hit you in the chest!" He lunged; and caught me 1/2 inch below my right eye. Fortunately, no damage was sone; but it scared the hell out of me, and that was a good thing! Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. "Mad Dog" Davies Posted May 13, 2003 Author Share Posted May 13, 2003 Aye, Capt. William, but then fencers have been killed when their masks got penetrated by broken foils, too. I believe self control and concentration are the best protection. There's a time to be competitve and a time to just train. In a life devoted to training with swords, I've come across too many who skip the training part, or most of it anyway, and go right to swinging or thrusting, and you're right, it can be hazardous if you get in the way. I'm glad you weren't injured as seriously as you might have been, but at the same time I can't help but question your assailant's judgement. Skill is as much a mental discipline as it a physical one. Cordially, Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood "The Code of Our Brotherhood is Better than all the Lies of Nations!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Lasseter Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Good ideas, Mad Dog. But, I'd still strongly recommend proper eye protection, such as a 3-weapons fencing mask. I almost learned the hard way when I was learning rapier. An experiences rapier fighter wanted to demonstrate a technique on me. When I started to put on my mask, he said, "Oh, don't worry! You won't need that: I'm just going to hit you in the chest!" He lunged; and caught me 1/2 inch below my right eye. Fortunately, no damage was sone; but it scared the hell out of me, and that was a good thing! Capt. William Good god man! Quite lucky you most definitely were! a'course, I believe that the foil is one of the most dangerous things in a fencers hand; too thin, whippy, easily broken.... I've been Fencing & Swashbuckling for near 12 years now, I've had a few blades broken on me, and broken a few myself, all Epees... they make a very destinctive sound, foils don't... Now, I fence with Schlager blades or better... I also agree with Mad Dog, Practice, practice, and more practice... followed by Practice... And NEVER without a mask, unless it be slow motion moves to define how a move is to be properly executed... Just my piece-of-eight.... Truly, D. Lasseter Captain, The Lucy Propria Virtute Audax --- In Hoc Signo Vinces Ni Feidir An Dubh A Chur Ina Bhan Air "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." Deuteronomy 32:41 Envy and its evil twin - It crept in bed with slander - Idiots they gave advice - But Sloth it gave no answer - Anger kills the human soul - With butter tales of Lust - While Pavlov's Dogs keep chewin' - On the legs they never trust... The Seven Deadly Sins http://www.colonialnavy.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Lasseter Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Thot I'd add a bit more... I've taught meself Elizabethan Swordplay from the start, no collegate stuff, which has the distant relative of Gentlemanly small sword deuling... My 'umble opinion, pick up a few good books on the subject, two of me favorites are; "Methods and Practice of Elizabethan Swordplay" by Turner & Roper ISBN 0-8093-1562-9 "Renaissance Swordsmadship" by John Clements ISBN 0-87364-919-2 Both excellent works, tho I'll not swear that the rollin' deck of a ship will allow perfection of yer practicin' Truly, D. Lasseter Captain, The Lucy Propria Virtute Audax --- In Hoc Signo Vinces Ni Feidir An Dubh A Chur Ina Bhan Air "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." Deuteronomy 32:41 Envy and its evil twin - It crept in bed with slander - Idiots they gave advice - But Sloth it gave no answer - Anger kills the human soul - With butter tales of Lust - While Pavlov's Dogs keep chewin' - On the legs they never trust... The Seven Deadly Sins http://www.colonialnavy.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. "Mad Dog" Davies Posted May 14, 2003 Author Share Posted May 14, 2003 Aye Dorian, Both books you recommend are really informative, especially John Clements' book, which is far more instructional than the Elizabethan book. However they are both directed toward specific types of swords and the methodologies that are particular to their use. If the rapier or its' antecedants are your weapons of choice, then they are both worth reading. Just don't try applying too much of it to cutlass fighting, because it's different. And don't think that any book will teach you all you really need to know, because it can't stand and watch you move and correct your mistakes. Only an experienced and qualified teacher can do that. What qualifies a teacher is not only the time they've put into it, but a clear knowledge of how the sword and body work together as a unit. Someone saying they've been doing something for 10 or 20 years doesn't neccessarily mean they're qualified. They may well have been doing it wrong for that long, so be wary of such claims. I find this especially to be a trend among certain Medieval societies that consider whacking each other with pvc pipes to be swordsmanship. It's not and never will be. The Japanese sport of Kendo, played with bamboo shinai is derived from traditional swordsmanship, but is not the same thing. The Japanese, who brought true swordsmanship and sword making to the highest level, recognize the difference and so should we. Cordially, Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood "The Code of Our Brotherhood is Better than all the Lies of Nations!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Maria Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Based on my reading ,I have to agree that fighting it out was not the way of choice for most pirates. However, that does not mean to say, that pirates would not fight it out. Just the opposite; if they felt they had to, they would fight as hard as possible. According to history, Blackbeard even went so far as to duke it out with a british man-o-war. Yes and he lost his head in the process. But only after sustaining 20 sword cuts & 5 bullet wounds. He was purported to have said after the first slash to his neck "Well done lad". They didn't make them any ornerier or tougher than Ned Teach! Most of the time Blackbeard didn't fight, he didn't have to. Most ship's surrendered on his rep alone. From my research he wasn't as bad as his rep. made him out to be. He sometimes even paid people to say how bad ass he was. A master of bribery and PR he were. For the talk of fighting I haven't heard were most pirates actually fought. On land in taverns over card game, liquor or sex! Red Maria The Soul of Indecency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Lasseter Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Aye Mad Dog, Wot yer sayin about the book-learnin rings true... Best to combine it with a master at said trade... Yer poke at that Medieval Group also rings true, fightin' wi' sticks that don't share the the same characteristics as the real weapon, while ok to a degree for practicin' as history shows us - some crews did have wooden stick-cutlass' made up for practice - tho the ballance, etc isn't the same. I have fought, choriographed, and trained others, mostly with fencing, tho a few with cutlass... In my younger days tho, my former Lt. and I had a live steel, unchoriographed, cutlass duel, full costume n' persona... It was amaizin'... we had trained together for so long that we knew each other's style so well. It'll not happen again, don't say as I trust anyone as well to be able to pull it off again... Disclaimer; Don't try this at home kids! Professional Lunatics under supervision! Also, I've never had a cutlass/hanger break while doin' any of this... Another olde crewmate had a Museum Replica scimatar snap at the hilt while slashing at a padded wooden target, ever see a giant steel boomerang? Not a pretty sight... Truly, D. Lasseter Captain, The Lucy Propria Virtute Audax --- In Hoc Signo Vinces Ni Feidir An Dubh A Chur Ina Bhan Air "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." Deuteronomy 32:41 Envy and its evil twin - It crept in bed with slander - Idiots they gave advice - But Sloth it gave no answer - Anger kills the human soul - With butter tales of Lust - While Pavlov's Dogs keep chewin' - On the legs they never trust... The Seven Deadly Sins http://www.colonialnavy.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Aye, shipmates, delighted to see that we have a real hot discussion goin' here! I think the bottom line we all must accept is that the only thing that is goin to simulate real-life swordfighting, is real-life swordfighting! And since few of us (I hope) are willing to go at it with sharpened steel blades, without armour, and using unchoreographed moves...we've hence got to accept whatever it is we do as not-quite-the-real-thing. The question then becomes, how much are we willing to sacrifice safety for authenticity. My experience has been limited to sport fencing with foil and epee, and to SCA rapier with schlager, and I agree; none of it remotely simulates cutlass fighting. I've never broken a blade on anyone. I have had a foil broken on me. I felt nothing, other than a solid hit. It was scary to contemplate afterwards; but, it didn't stop me from fencing! I'm kind of a middle-ground sort of person on risk, avoiding either extreme of fatalism, or paranoia: if I'm motivated to do something, I consider the risks involved, and then either decide it's not worth it, or decide to do it anyway, while taking reasonable precautions against the perceived attendant risks. At this point, lacking (although trying to organize) a group to practice simulated cutlass fighting, and still not sure what to use TO simulate it, I'm going to opt for some sport sabre instruction from my fencing instructor. Then I'll play it by ear as to whether I want to try some "more realistic" cut and thrust weaponry (such as singlestick). Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. "Mad Dog" Davies Posted May 15, 2003 Author Share Posted May 15, 2003 Ahoy all, To reply to each in order: Red Maria, you've a rare perception of the pyrate world. There's nothing so inspiring and worth fighting over as sex. Especially to a seadog who'd been shaking hands with 'imself and keeping 'is backside to the bulkhead for weeks on end. Contemporary accounts from Port Royal, Jamaica concur with your observation. Buccaneers probably saw more fighting there in a drunken week than they did in their whole careers at sea. Capt. Lassiter, Capt. William, You both seem like kindred spirits in the discipline of steel, and I'm glad you see my point. As for my comment regarding medieval groups, I didn't intend it as a poke, but rather an all too frequently reinforced observation. Each to his own I say, whatever brings one the fulfilment they need, so long as no harm is done. And so long as it doesn't include me indulging what I know to be someone's delusion about what swordsmanship is supposed to be. Let's face it, most likely none of us will ever know the experience of facing an opponent eye to eye, blade to blade, life and death in the balance. More's the pity, for with the passing of those days went a great opportunity for true self-appraisal. As for the here and now, I am safety's most ardent advocate, and do not now or ever endorse abandoning safety for the sake of authenticity. Cordially, Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood Capt. Ian "Mad Dog" Davies, Ye Pyrate Brotherhood "The Code of Our Brotherhood is Better than all the Lies of Nations!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Flint Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Better words could not have been spoken, Mad Dog. I agree with almost everything you have said about the sport. I particularly agree with the comment you make about various medievel groups and thier idea of swordsmanship. I say this being one who belongs to a particular medievel group. Just for the record, we do NOT use pvc or padded weapons. I also agree with what you say about learning from books. Books are a very helpful tool, but, they can never replace hands on lessons. As far as who is qualified to teach,; well, that is a debate that will continue forever. I have met many people who call themselves teachers. I have also met many who claim to have been taught by "MASTERS" I personally believe that a true fan of the sport is always a student. While there are most assuredly those who can teach, they themselves continue to be a student. For in this sport, I have come to know that there is always something new to learn. I have been active in sword fighting for well over ten years now, and I am very certain that there is a great deal for me to still learn. Just wanted to add my thoughts....... The Capt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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