sea haugh

True , i do agree it is messy , and yes i did deserve the slap on the hand for how i approached his book , a few years back on here. But do not think it cannot be dismissed when used in unison with examinations and criminal matters series , who via numerous testimonies and examinations help ground what Downing has been saying. Browns Garden , i am simply looking to know where exactly , be it via books or finding it via numerous ship journals and the navigational details. What got me thinking of this is , we all look into the more infamous pirates , yet , whatever happened to Paulsgrave Williams? It was mentioned that he was not in best temperament when under the command of LeVasseur , while heading round to the Indian Ocean , so , what happened? where did he go? was he killed? Did he jump ship? An idea i have floating around is , this whole thing about LeVasseur losing his ship at Mayotta , so close to land , was it an accident or sabotage? Did Paulsgrave finally have enough and caused an event to happen in order to get off the ship? with the help of the others who fled? 11 of them was it not? yet only 4 ended up on "Greenwich " one of whom was buried in Browns Garden. no names are given of these fellas , even under any name. These 4 pirates were recognised by an Italian passenger , so who would be more noticeable than someone more so up the pecking order on a pirate vessel , could Paulsgrave have been one of these guys? Or did LeVasseur simply take Paulsgrave out of the equation somehow? all assumptions for now i guess. just a mulling thought.

Hello All, A brief random question or two.... 1700-1730.... I do not know if any exist or if any search has been done , but Persian and Indian documents from that era in relation to events on the ocean, would there be any and if so , where would the likeliest places be if stored in an archive somewhere or even in private domain? This stems from thinking about Taylor and England being off the coast of India , and Kendal loitering around the Red sea , surely it must have been noted by these local nations? Or how is it Taylor and England can cruise right down the coast of India without harm , touching in to see the friendly Dutch , while the Indian fella Angria ruled those waters , given the expanse and method he used to capture vessels , like trapped fish in an ever shrinking net. He was aware of the European pyrates , and even John Plantain supposedly went to work in his service Once Ratner Bay had lost its appeal , even , although others will ridicule the source "Compendius History of Indian wars.." but even Clement Downing himself stated that most of his information on the pirates came from a few lads at St Mary & Madagascar , whom he later met few years later in service or were in service with Angria , which is the only source for the final whereabouts of Plantain. (concerning Downing... how can he be dismissed as being mostly fictional in his book , yet , deemed acceptable in his information provided in the "trials and criminal examinations series stored at Kew? not once but a few times. all appearing correct? So yeah , does anyone have anything on Persian and Indian sources for this type information? My other question is , just where exactly is "Browns garden" on Juanna? the burial site used by many a sailor and pyrate , can anyone shed some light? Am aware Jasper Seeter is buried on St Mary , but for browns garden , one of Levasseurs crew , he is buried there by Cut Kirby "Greenwich" crew , as is a few from Matthews Squadron , surely this Browns Garden should be noted somewhere given the knowledge of the time. Many thanks in advance, Sea Haugh

John Taylor with Cassandra at Portobelo was rechristened by the Spanish with great ceremony. New name Unknown , was he still a pirate of sorts thereafter?

Hi, I have a rather odd question in concerns of tallow candles.... are there any instances or records covering the tallow of humans within piracy? also this.... Tallow Candles or Song of a Doomed ManTallow Candles or Song of a Doomed Man from the singing of Jacqui & Bridie I have tallow candles white, hanging high, hanging high I have tallow candles white, hanging high I have tallow candles white, and I stole them all by night And my life shall pay for all, when I die, when I die And my life shall pay for all, when I die I have twenty ox in store, that's no joke... ...and I aimed for twenty more And my life shall pay for all... I went up the Tyburn Hill, in a cart... ...and twas there I made my will And my life... I climb'ed up the ladder by a rope... ...then the hangman pulled the rope And twas never a word I spoke, coming down... Take a warning all by me, that's no lie... ... for to shun bad company Or your life...

His identity ..... Try Kendal According to one reporting officer.

Did Taylor not actually get his command once Cocklin died at Madagascar? He was quarter master to a lot of takings , was he not? Had an ego for sure. I would say Condent got away with it better than Taylor ,Condent gets his freedom and moves back to France , and becomes rather successful. Taylors story is not completed yet , he didn't get away with it. Off topic , whatever happened to Richard Holland? Am curious if the Deposition of Richard Taylor being taken by pirates was / if it may be him , the turning point for Taylor into pyracy? The "Cabo" on a par with the Judda ship ,taken by the Dragon , cpt Condent took? which had the greater wealth? . Cabo , carrying religious items , personal wealth of viceroy , the archbishop , other priests , the 4 yearly revenues from Goa , diamonds from the south east India mines , not to mention a chinese vessel on its way to Lisbon with gifts for the king to open up direct trade. Condent took the Austrian vessel from China.

I don't know either , However , Examination of Francis Matthews , while travelling as a passenger , Bristol to Kingsale in the Mary Sloop , John England being master, did a little check he did have a son called Edward. ( am not saying it is , but it might be worth a little more digging) For La Buse , perhaps Thomas Simmons examination may hold a clue where to snoop about. Be a young officer by that time if he was as some say.

At the taking of "CASSANDRA" Sunday 7th August 1720. .... at which time discovered the two ships be pyrates , the one a French built ship of 46 guns by name the "VICTORY" Capt England , the other a dutch built of 36 guns , by name the "FANCY" Capt Seager , got all things readiness for our defence....." " ye cassandra being the leeward most ship was engaged by ye smaller ship , they fought under ye black flagg at ye main topmast head. with deaths head in it , ye red flag at the foretop mast head & St George colours at ye ensign staff" As written by Capt Kirby. Greenwich , IOR/L/MAR/B488A , 6/10/1719 - 13/7/1720 These flags were also on show on the coast of India when the pyrates were over there and got into a little mix up with an English Squadron.

Was pirate Cpt Frowd prominent amongst them all? He was around the area at the time. Also Deposition of John Brown "JOHN & THOMAS" states William Moody in the RISING SUN took him 5th Nov 1718 off bay Carolina , end nov went to Martinico , Edward England was mentioned. (CO 152 , 12 , nos; 136 , 136 i-vi)

Vane , 16th Dec 1718 was around Honduras , then eventually on land till Feb 1719 on the southern shore of Guanija? (Woodard) Edward England , by April 1719 , was living on shoar , at Sierra Leone , according to William Snelgrave , who spoke with him about parcels given to locals amongst other things. HCA 1/54 Thomas Farrin , on a voyage to South Carolina with Captain Brown was taken by William Moody (C.O.152 , 12 , NO; 151, 151i) Woodes Rogers letter to secretary Craggs , talks of Moody in 22 gun ship & Edward England in a brigantine , although they suspected condent ( CO 23 , 13 ff30 , 30 v)

Hi , Would there even be a pirate cemetery? perhaps am it just seems odd to me. As Foxe once corrected me Jasper seetar / segar was in command of a vessel around St Marie , but he also died there. Would he have had a proper burial? While on the topic of death , is the term "browns garden" a common term? , reason for asking one captain mentions of burying men in browns garden. which to me sounded odd. I do hope someone could clarify this one.

Davis , Out of discretion for your sources .... Mr A. P. be one of them?

Am not saying anything , already had my fingers wrapped before , i merely posted something for you to find and that the 3 periagues mentioned were the one`s who took the "Elizabeth & Mary" that information came from a primary source from the captured vessel.

3 Spanish periagues (spelling?) from Barcoa took "Elizabeth&Mary" The 1st called the "Postillion" command Richard Holland - an Irishman The 2nd called "Mary Ann" command by Josephus ........ (a mulato? ) acted as quarter master for company in all 46 men, The 3rd called "Gran Diablo" commanded by a Frenchman. .By St Domingo, Cuba , i mean there was a ship commissioned by one Le Vasseur in 1715.

Davis, Try looking for the "gran diablo" or at St Domingo for that period.

Journal of "Greenwich" Cpt Kirby 8th August 1720 ...."ye cassandra being the leeward most ship was engaged by ye small ship , they fought under a black flag at ye main topmast head with deaths head in it , ye red flag at ye main foretop mast head and st georges colours at ye ensign staff" he states Edward England in the "Victory" french built 46 gun and Cpt Seegar in the dutch built 36 gun "Fancy"

An assumption ; perhaps not illiterate , rather unable to read a different language?

Mr Fox, Obviously am in the wrong area for this post , however, watched your input in channel 5 programme this evening and enjoyed it albeit somewhat short at half an hour long. Could you not of persuaded them into an hour long viewing? Oh and who was the passionate old(ish) guy weilding the cutlass as i missed the start of the program. As for topic placement, my apologies, yet am sure someone will find somewhere more fitting. sea haugh

Hi, Wish to chuck out a theory here to gauge how off it may be.... After "Cassandra" was taken by England and Taylor, they went over to India, did their thing, returned back, could it be possible that England was not just marooned because of his persuasion of McRae getting the "fancy" but that he also became ill on this return leg, hence his marooning on a not so deserted island, out of some respect? Would this then lend to a temp command by seegar? But around the same time they went back to find la buse , who got the "victory" and seegar who is prominant but not in command at taking of the "cabo" Going by Le Mercure and the account of the cabo during the storm and attack it mentioned the ships as victory and fancy. Would/could this not be put down to the Portuguese would not of known that the "cassandra" had been taken, as the Portuguese were busying themselves to leave Goa. British were to busy making a hash of trying to attack various strongholds along the coast and reduce the grief Angria`s fleet was causing. So the discrepancies of which vessels were present could be accounted for in this way. Word of cassandra would have been in Bombay not Goa. Plus Governor Charles Boon was at loggerheads with the portuguese anyway. He only received word the viceroy was leaving a few weeks prior. The other question i have is, the Ostender which was present when the pirates attacked the "cassandra" when Cpt Kirby "Greenwich" and the Ostender bolted. Is this Ostender / could this Ostender be the same "villa d ostender" that was present at the taking of the "cabo"? just a thought.

So i guess any discrepancy in date cannot be put down to use of either julian calander verse gregorian, since the change over happened at the same time, or any possible typo in date, due to human error?

credit where it`s due , well done sir.

In relation to Cpt Laws, He was prior in the Indian Ocean. At the time La Buse and Taylor had split, Taylor making his way back round to the Atlantic, Cpt Law had put in at St Augustine`s "Mermaid" "Renown" "Princess" Right about the time John Plantain had just attacking one of the last local chief`s near St Augustine. The vessels wanted slaves, so Plantain sold the town he just done over, including the women and children to the vessels. He was politely asked several times if he would like to come aboard, all of which he declined. with that said, perhaps a chat had taken place between Plantain and Laws? where was Taylor going.......... This came from someone within the Commodore Thomas Matthews Squadron

Hi, I will start with John Plantain, born at a place called chocolate hole in Jamica, English Parents. There he lived til almost 20yrs old before moving to Rhode Island. It was here that he was eventually persuaded to join a pirate crew, himself and the following; John James, Boston, New England, Henry Millis , Falmouth, West of England, Richard Dean of Stepney, London, John Harvey of Shadwell, and Henry Jones , St Paul`s , London. The ship was "terrible" command John Williams, and Roberts being quartermaster. From there shaped course for Guinea, on route took 3 ships, on one was Mr Moore, a surgeon. Roberts who was the quarter master of the pirate vessel , kept the carpenter and surgeon from the other vessels. They kept the best vessel and called her "defiance" 300 ton / 30 gun. (originally it was "prosperous" bound for Jamaica) short time after on coast of Guinea, kept vessels from trading at Gambo, and other ports.It was here they met "onslow" had a good battle but got it in the end, they made one of their own whos name was England, Cpt of her. Shortly after they took a dutch interloper, this ship they liked and called her "fancy" Cpt England took command of it. England proposed a new voyage, 1st they were to burn "terrible" Having finished their cruise of Guinea, they were resolved to steer another way. At this time they had "fancy" under england, a small brigatine "unity" which was renamed "expedition" and gave command to one Johnson that was with them, though one quartermaster served them all, and being in great dispute of how and which way to dispose of each other, they went ashore on the coast of Guinea and held a meeting. It was divided, some wished to go with England others with Roberts, it lasted some time quarrelling, eventually being left to a committee chosen among them. six or seven vessels among them,it was resolved they should split due to number of vessels before civil war amongst them started.. England took "fancy" the snow, and another ship "victory" and go away to east indies, roberts went his way. that came from a pirate called John Davis, who had been with Plaintain since Madagascar and then onto India into the service of Angria.

Hi Foxe, It`s to late for me to fully respond to your post tonight, but i shall, in the meantime; Are you sure about Cpt Laws? Did he not arrive in the area with 3 vessels , fully laden with slaves? Where did he get the slaves from? Who sold him the slaves? How did the person selling the slaves so happen to have them? Find that , and you will know where i am coming from.

Hi, i beg to differ with some of that,well quite a bit. however, i shall post soon in response.