Frock coats?

[Silent]

NOTE: please move if need be

I was talking to a friend of mine and also to some SCA members and I hear that if you are going to reinact not to wear frock coats because they are only hollywood and didn't have them in the 1700's only the 1800's? Is there some info you could tell me to make me understand all this please

[Captain Jim]

A good source of info can be found here, our very own Kass's web site. There is also a "sticky" in Twill that lists most of the major clothing discussions in the Pub. That which you seek will be found there.

Short answer: your friends are misinformed.

[Lady Alyx]

Hmmmm I don't know about that....I don't think the movie costumers work on any costumes without researching it. I just found this link...towards the bottom they have patterns for men's coats..and it states the timeframes...it may serve as a reference for you at least. I don't know the historical reputation of this site. I am sure others soon will help with this message thread for more authentic details on your question.

Sewing Central

[Captain Jim]

Alyx, those are Reconstructing History patterns. That's Kass McGann's work, being sold by one of her partners/dealers.

[Lady Alyx]

Cool, then we know they are good for the timeframes postes...looks like he can have his Frock coat then eh?

[Captain Jim]

Aye. Like I said, it would seem that Silent's friends were inadvertently and uniformly misinformed...means "wrong.”

[Lady Alyx]

Aye, yea did say it...my poor eye missed that line .....lol! But glad he can wear a sharp coat now eh!

[Silent]

Well that's good to hear, thank you

[Silkie McDonough]

Aren't SCA events usually from an earlier period? 1500 or older? If the event is 1650ish to 1750ish then it can be done, if not then your friends could be right.

[Lady Alyx]

Hmmm...only Silent can tell us what timeframe his group re-enacts. This is from the SCA home page.

"The SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe."

[Dorian Lasseter]

I was going to stay out of this, but...

The SCA time period ends at 1600.... "Pre 17th Century"

So... No frock coat.... No tri-corn...

[Captain Jim]

I only addressed the statement that they "didn't have them in the 1700's only the 1800's." What the SCA allows and what the cut-off date is didn't enter into my reply. If you are in the SCA, abide by their rules, no matter how bizarre they are. If the cut off date is 1600, then it really doesn't matter that frock coats were worn in the 1700's. Do pyrates from pre-1600 and thumb yer nose at 'em.

[Dorian Lasseter]

Agreed Cap'n Jim...

I do very, very borderline... I'm a gun crewmen... I wear clothes that span from 1580s to... well into the 18th century... simple, almost generic, but correct...

[Patrick Hand]

Not to stir up any anti SCA stuff.....

I think it's kinda funny, having someone in a cheap t-tunic, sweat pants, and motercycle boots ... tell me that Pyrates arn't period....

And can't tell what a period sailor did look like.....

[Silent]

Well I guess I just wont go to any SCA events and I'll stick to PIP

[michaelsbagley]

As someone who occassionally dabbles in the SCA, I was fairly certain that the SCA's focus was pre-1600 AD.... But there weren't any HARD rules on this, and that the pre-1600 focus was a guideline.... So on that logic, my thoughts were that an early GAoP (1680ish) wouldn't be too far out of the SCA's guidelines, and hence not any more out of place in the SCA than a "T-tunic" would on a Viking...

So my suggestion is go for it (I am)...

Having said that, different local groups in the SCA have different levels of tolerance for what they consider non-standard SCA garb/gear/authenticity/etc.... So you may want to do some asking around before jumping in with both feet. But in my experiences with the SCA (which has mostly been peripheral), most groups are fairly tolerant (minus a few individuals who can occassionally do a great job of making their minority attitudes seem like a majority)... Again, all of this is based off my limited experience with the SCA, and may not reflect the greater reality of the situation.

If you ever go to Pennsic (the biggest SCA event), there are TONS of pirates around (both accurate and theatrical).... I've also heard that there are Pirate Households within the SCA... so again, all of this leads to my belief that the greater portion of the SCA is tolerant to this slightly out of mainline period persona....

[Lady Alyx]

Several years back when the Ren Faire in so cal was out at Devore Glen Helen...I remember there where some pirates manning the Tobacco booth and also a place where only the re-actors would go...and saw many pirates there. Is there a Guild for Pirates....?

(Sorry for the dumb question, for all the years I went to faire I should know but I was never involved just a guest in garb)

[Patrick Hand]

I hope I didn't sound too harsh about the SCA in my post, thier events can be a lot of fun....

Thier historical accuracy standards are very lax, but that is why some people can play slighlty out of period (Pyrates and Musketeers)

If there isn't a Pyrate group close to you, you might consider joining an SCA group.

[Hawkyns]

OK, jumping in with both feet. Warning, this will probably piss some people off. Tough!

First- I've been a member of the Society for 30 years. I've been to the last 29 Pennsics and have been on staff for 10. I'm a double peer and my Laurel is for Authenticity and Black Powder.

I am entirely sick of seeing GAoP kit in a Society that specifically states that pre 17th C garb is required to attend event. Tricorns, frock coats, flintlocks, long weskits, etc. ARE OUT OF PERIOD!!!!!!

I lost track of the Jack Sparrow clones at Pennsic. Not only is it OOP, it shows a specific lack of imagination. The abomination that was the rolling pirate party should have been banned from the start. All of the above mentioned items were there in abundance. Why, i have no idea.

Look, I do privateer in the Society. Elizabethan, as in one of Drake's men. I do the research, I spend the money, I take the time, and i do it right. Pirates and privateers are perfectly period. People need to get a clue that pyracy did not start with the introduction of the Queen Anne pistol and the tricorn. All i can say is that the people who do it are bloody lazy, and just want another excuse to drink too much rum and act like idiots. Because 95% of the tricorn wearing, frock coat adorned, flintlock waving pirates at Pennsic, have no bloody idea of history.

Hawkyns

[Rumba Rue]

There is no pirate group and never has been at Southern Faire. THERE USE to be a group called the SEA DOGS, but they were not pirates. S. Faire frowns greatly on pirates, yet they sell pirate type t-shirts in their gift stores there. Go figure....

Same goes for the Ojai events where Queen Elizabeth is present during the Pirate Faire, yet we all know she wasn't even alive during the Golden Age of Piracy. It's a total joke.

[Rumba Rue]

There is no pirate group and never has been at Southern Faire. THERE USE to be a group called the SEA DOGS, but they were not pirates. S. Faire frowns greatly on pirates, yet they sell pirate type t-shirts in their gift stores there. Go figure....

Same goes for the Ojai events where Queen Elizabeth is present during the Pirate Faire, yet we all know she wasn't even alive during the Golden Age of Piracy. It's a total joke.

[michaelsbagley]

OK, jumping in with both feet. Warning, this will probably piss some people off. Tough!

First- I've been a member of the Society for 30 years. I've been to the last 29 Pennsics and have been on staff for 10. I'm a double peer and my Laurel is for Authenticity and Black Powder.

I am entirely sick of seeing GAoP kit in a Society that specifically states that pre 17th C garb is required to attend event. Tricorns, frock coats, flintlocks, long weskits, etc. ARE OUT OF PERIOD!!!!!!

I lost track of the Jack Sparrow clones at Pennsic. Not only is it OOP, it shows a specific lack of imagination. The abomination that was the rolling pirate party should have been banned from the start. All of the above mentioned items were there in abundance. Why, i have no idea.

Look, I do privateer in the Society. Elizabethan, as in one of Drake's men. I do the research, I spend the money, I take the time, and i do it right. Pirates and privateers are perfectly period. People need to get a clue that pyracy did not start with the introduction of the Queen Anne pistol and the tricorn. All i can say is that the people who do it are bloody lazy, and just want another excuse to drink too much rum and act like idiots. Because 95% of the tricorn wearing, frock coat adorned, flintlock waving pirates at Pennsic, have no bloody idea of history.

Hawkyns

Hawkyns, I admire your passion, and idealism... And I have no doubt that you maintain a high level of personal standards, and I fully appreciate your desire to see the SCA's guidelines/rules/mandate or whatever it actually is adhered to...

But the SCA by it's nature needs to be equally tolerant, or uniformly hard-fisted about things that fall outside of it's status quo. The SCA and those speaking on behalf of the org needs to try to be more consistant with their acceptance of all things, or shift gears and try to be a more living history focussed society and start to equally eliminate all things that fall outside of their guidelines.

Tuchux and other fantasy oriented barbarians, nuff said there

Belly Dancers while have provenance in history, I would say that more than 90% of the middle eastern dance types that I see at SCA events are "Tribal", "Fusion", or "Caberet" style dancers and are dressed as such... All of these dance and like garb styles are 20th century conventions. Do you feel as strongly against their presence as you seem to a potentially reasonably accurate sailor depiction 80(ish) years out of the timeframe? As many pirates as there seems to be in the SCA these days, they are easily outnumbered 10 to 1 by middle eastern dancers.

Quoting the first line of the official SCA web site " The Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. - The SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe. "

Does the disdain I seem to see in your post extend to far eastern asian personas? (Please note the word Europe in the above quote)

Please believe me when I tell you that I'm not trying to thumb my nose at your passions or what I am perceiving your beliefs or idealism to be... But there is so much more blatantly wrong stuff prevelant in the SCA that expressing any displeasure at GAoP within the SCA really just comes off as a little bit of a personal bugaboo rather than a real problem. As for the Sparrow clones, I too can't wait for that trend to blow over (no offence meant to anyone), and as for the wandering drunkards.... I've seen equally as many of those who would most likely fall within the status quo of the SCA's guidelines at Pennsic as I've seen wandering drunken pirates...

Respectfully yours,

The devils advocate.

[Patrick Hand]

OK... this was from a Renn. Faire, and not an SCA event......

But almost no one knew what time period it was.... just joked about the funny (thrum) cap (bad hair day...)..... I've worn it to two different events, and got the same reaction... so why bother.....

When I was in the SCA (in Tenn.), I was a 4th cent. Pict (kinda famous as they guy who painted womens breast with woad, down in the bog at Pennsic...)

When I first moved back to California, I checked out the local SCA group.... they were all doing Middle Eastern, so instead of going Pyrate, I went Corsair... But the large and well know (SCA) group of tricorne (cocked) hatted Pyrates were having a wonderfull time.....frock coats and all.....

Luckly I found (another) group of Pyrates to participate with.... didn't want to mess with the pre-1600 date....

About a year ago, I re-checked the local SCA group.... it's now down to three people... with the "standard" ...I'm a Scottish Noble personna (about as creative as the Jack Sparrow clones) Hawkyns mentioned...

The SCA was fun, but I enjoy Pyracy more......

[MadMike]

Speaking of Vikings and tunics-

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carls...oth/tunic2.html

http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/viktunic.html

Authenticity in the SCA is lacking to say the least (however, I've seen worse at buckskinning rendezvous').

Want hard core Viking reenactors? Check out these guys-

http://www.jomsvikings.com/jomsborg.php

Other sources-

http://www.regia.org/

http://www.vikingsonline.org.uk/

Viking settlement in North America-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Anse_aux_Meadows

Yours, Mike

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Yes!

No GAoP pirates allowed.

To make extra room for:

this

and this

GoF