ROYALISTE IS UNDERWATER

[BadMcCrack]

I just came here from another site. Sorry to hear this ship ran into difficulties and I do hope she recovers. I am wondering what went wrong with the equipment or navigation? Was this accident caused by equipment failure or crew failure?

[Red Maria]

I just came here from another site. Sorry to hear this ship ran into difficulties and I do hope she recovers. I am wondering what went wrong with the equipment or navigation? Was this accident caused by equipment failure or crew failure?

Go to the first page of this thread and there will be an explaination. See Iron Bess and Red-Handed Jill posts.

[BadMcCrack]

Yes, I did read that the depth went from 40' to 4' "very suddenly" but I'm wondering just how this ship found herself in waters like this? How familiar was the crew with this waterway?

[Red-Handed Jill]

Actually, it was 14' to 4'. I believe this was the first time they ventured into these waters, but they were using a depth finder. Apparently, the depth change was too sudden for such a large ship as Royaliste to manoeuver.

[Albatross Bill]

Was the depth finder not working?

[HarborMaster]

I believe it came upon them quickly., Royaliste is a very experinced crew indeed. "Good to see you Albatros Bill" !

[BadMcCrack]

IT came upon THEM quickly?

Crikey. I thought that only happened on winding lanes where the old stately oak trees are wont to leap forth just when one races down the home stretch.

Was alcohol involved in this accident?

[William Brand]

IT came upon THEM quickly?

Crikey. I thought that only happened on winding lanes where the old stately oak trees are wont to leap forth just when one races down the home stretch.

Was alcohol involved in this accident?

You just may have worn out your welcome.

[Red-Handed Jill]

Royaliste is a big vessel - she doesn't exactly turn on a time.

[BadMcCrack]

For asking legitimate questions?

[Desert Pyrate]

(I can't believe I'm responding to this)

See, the thing about water is you can't see what's under it. And charts, for all their usefulness, reflect information that's sometimes not quite accurate. Combine this with the depth finder reflecting the depth that's *currently* under the ship, and sometimes there are problems.

Tall ships go aground (and run into things). Just kinda happens sometimes.

[HarborMaster]

Crikey?

I am sorry you chose my post for your sarcasm.

Its easy to sit somewhere and and talk about that which you know nothing., how is it you were able to aquire such cheaply bought wisdom?

I wont elaborate anymore on this incident since I wasnt there., other than the crew has been sailing a long time., Please elaborate on your credentials for us so that we may appreciate your critic of the Royaliste.

[Black Hearted Pearl]

Cruise ship runs aground

Talk about not being able to maneuver on a dime/duerstmark(sp?). Even the most trained and experienced captains cannot avoid the shifting landscape of the undersea terrain.

AND NOW FOR THE SOAPBOX

Especially with global warming deeply effecting changes.

OFF SOAPBOX.

[Iron Bess]

For asking legitimate questions?

Ummmm.... right you are, anyone is indeed entitled to ask questions.

Questions however that are flavored with what appears to be pre-opinionated fervor and accusations seem to be... well, nothing but rude given the sad and dangerous circumstances in which these people found themselves…..

If you are unsympathetic to the plight of the Royaliste that is fine and also it's you're right. It's the right of the folks here then who DO care, to post rebuttles to rude suggestion and innuendo....

Live and learn and stay and contribute and enjoy yourself.

Continue with what reads as a lame attempt to stir up questionable things about the ship, her crew and misfortune and we are bound to think you are little more then insincere...

Oh wait. Excuse me... was that rude?

[Lady Alyx]

Blackhearted Pearl...where you looking for Deutschmark? lol

and yes accidents do happen in the real world....!

[LongTom]

For asking legitimate questions?

Do you accuse every driver unlucky enough to be caught by something unexpected during the morning commute of driving drunk? Do you jump with such obvious relish on every grammatical misstep of everyone with whom you communicate?

Do you honestly not understand why the manner in which you conduct your inquiries seems designed not so much to seek information as to stir controversy?

[Silver Steele]

As someone who use to live on the NC coast and use to live on Carolina Beach (which is about ohh.. an hour from where they are at depending upon whether you take the ferry off the island south or go back north across the bridge and then back south) and has gone thru their share of tropical storm and hurricanes, lemme tell ya sumptin Bad McCrack about the shallows, inlets and rivers that come off the Carolinas.

Depending upon the tide, the weather, the direction of the wind, the shore line, the way the river/inlet turns and the current, sand bars can pop up within minutes. They don't call the Atlantic off the Carolinas the "Ships Graveyard" or the "Graveyard of the Atlantic" fer nuffin.

Additionally just north of where Gary's boat ran aground, just across the border in NC in the Cape Fear river is where Stede Bonnet also ran aground and was captured. (Now Bonnet was an idiot of a pirate, but also Colonel Rhett along with his other ship ran around.) And if you don't believe that rivers and inlets change on the Carolina's shore, the river mouth where Bonnet was captured is now nothing more than a stream about a foot wide and maybe five inches deep.

Additionally the lighthouse off the Cape is a very good example. When it was built in 1870 it was 1600 feet from the ocean. In 1920 it was 300 feet from the ocean. In 1996 that same lighthouse was now only 130 feet from the ocean.

It does not matter if they had charts. It does not matter if they had a depth sounder. The bottom can go from 14' to 4' in a matter of well.. feet. Unfortunately due to the nasty laws of physics, ships under sail or on motor can not stop on a dime and you can not control Mother Nature.

[Coastie04]

OK, I can't stay quiet any longer on this.

I've been aground 4 times in sailing vessels ranging from 24.5' to 112'. It happens and the reason isn't necessarily mechanical, drinking, human error, etc.

That said, when the Coast Guard investigates an incident, those are the first things they look for. Why? Because they are a major factor in *MOST* mishaps. There is almost always something that people could have done to stop the 'error chain' that leads to a mishap. So, BadMcCrack asking these questions, although the tone might be harsh, is a very legitimate thing. I know Gary only from online, but I've come to respect him as a prudent mariner and kept an open mind about the incident. However, a newbie to the board doesn't have that luxury. And, as for the drinking, I've seen it cause a number of deaths on the water. I don't see a stretch linking a pirate ship to drinking (really, does anyone?), and especially if someone doesn't have a lot of experience on the sea, it's a logical conclusion.

Now, to help answer some of BadMcCrack's questions. As I mentioned, I've been aground a couple of times. All but once was probably preventable with 20/20 hindsight. I won't go into the details right now because I don't have time, and it would be geting farther from the point. It was already mentioned that boats that big don't turn on a dime. They also don't stop on a dime (and even when going aground). There are many other factors, such as wind and current that affect maneuverability and are not easy even for experienced mariners to predict, especially in an unfamiliar port. In a river, silt can often change the bottom depths, and charts are not always accurate, even if updated. Heck, up here in Alaska, I've seen a modern chart (I think it's outdated now, but it was in use within the last 20 years) which states that it is based on a survey by CAPTAIN COOK!!! Some of the charts we use in Southeast Alaska today are based upon surveys done pre-1900 for at least portions. So, bottom line is that a chart is not definitive. However, most mariners rely on them to be fairly accurate, since most are regularly corrected and they're the best guide we have.

Royaliste was transiting down the ICW, so she was not a local and did not know the port well. Lots of mariners do that all the time without incident. We're in an era where people think that everything can be prevented. Well, it can't. There is risk in everything, especially when it involves the sea. Equipment can fail without notice at the worst time, people can still make mistakes regardless of their experience, and some things are just bad luck.

In conclusion, although I was not there, have never set eyes on the Royaliste, and only know some of the crew from this board, I believe that they would follow prudent seamanship based on what I know of them. They have been through many incidents without this kind of mishap (I believe I remember hearing about them loosing their engine and sailing back to SF and onto the dock a couple years ago, but I might be mixing my tall ships). So in other words, I respect their ability and knowledge. The posts haven't mentioned anything about structural, mechanical or electrical failure as a causative factor, so I'll rule that out. That pretty much leaves it to bad luck. Plus, people usually look at things and notice all the bad things that happened. Don't forget about the good things. Regardless of what did go wrong, nobody was seriously injured, the boat is floating and will be repaired (I assume and hope), and the salvage was successful.

GOOD JOB ALL WHO HELPED, either at the scene, with moral support, or dollars!!!

Coastie

P.S. I think there was a question earlier about why the Coast Guard didn't help them out, why they gave them a 12 hour timeline, etc. I'm not an expert, so I won't go into great depth but the short answer legality. The Coast Guard has been sued multiple times which have caused us to develope strict guidance about what we can do, cannot do, and have to do. So, courts, lawyers, and experience are really the answers to that.

[LongTom]

Coastie04 makes salient points about "most" incidents. However, I think this forum is not an appropriate place to speculate on this incident. None of us were present at the scene, therefore anything we might add to the accounting of the incident is, by definition, fiction.

I will add my thanks to everyone who has pitched in; but I imagine that the heaviest of the bills are probably just starting. Drydock and repair services aren't free. It's not over yet by a long stretch. If you haven't already donated, now is your cue.

[Salty]

Good luck to ye lads and lasses o the Royaliste.

not much but hope everything helps ye

[LadyBarbossa]

McCrack...

Not gonna bash ya, mate. But I did ask that very same question m'self... and others asked that, too.

All it is is simple error. It happens. Things happen, just gotta do your best to be prepared for them. The crew of the Royaliste did their best at that time. And all that we can do at this time is to lend them financial, moral and any other support that we can handle and provide.

As Black Hearted Pearl pointed out about the Cruise ship that ran aground... again, things happen.

Ask your questions. Good to know that you don't want to presume. But also, one can figure out what happened with what info has been given to them.

~Lady B

[Christine]

Whoa, things got a bit ugly in here and there's no reason for it. BadMcCrack just asked a question, no reason for anyone to get all pissy at him. Besides, in the words of Captain Jack Sparrow from Dead Men's Chest, "She's only a ship mate!"

[Ransom]

Aye, she may only be a ship, but she's that man and his wife's livelyhood and home. You lose you home, you still have a job, you lose your job, you still have a home, but this couple has lost both, for the time being. A double shot, if you will. To cast doubts on their skill as mariners is a shame. It puts doubts in people's minds and makes them hesitate to donate funds that are so sorely needed. That is a shame.

I have donated willingly, trying to put myself in their place, and wondering how desperate I would feel under the same circumstances.

[Silkie McDonough]

Okay, deep breath. Everyone.

:)

[hurricane]

I can vouch to the fact that a sailing ship can go aground at any point. We ran aground on an uncharted sand bar in Port Royal aboard the Schooner Wolf. It shouldn't have even been where it was. Capt. Finbar saw it (he was taking soundings with line) but the wind caught the sails as she turned and pushed her on the bar. No one could have prevented it. Now anyone who know Finbar knows he's one of the most experienced captains in the country - he's qualified to pilot everything up to a super tanker. But you can't fight the wind or the tides in a sailing vessel.

As for the Coast Guard... I don't know about here but in Jamaica the Coast Guard came out almost immediately. They checked to make sure we weren't sinking, waved their M-16s around a bit for show, took the kids aboard to shore and left. There was no threat to life at the time and we were a salvage job, not a CG job.

-- Hurricane