Captain Midnight Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 Kass, do you have photo samples of your historical type fabrics that you carry, such as your hemp canvas? I'd like to see the weave and such, if it would be possible... "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 I'm gonna answer on Kass's behalf here... how very rude of me... There are photos of all the fabrics on the RH website showing the weave and such. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Awwww, Foxe... You noticed... Midnight, if you need to see the weave more closely, we can provide swatches for a small fee. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Here is the picture of the jacket.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 I don't mean to slam on the breaks, but I think we need to back up a little and restate some terminology so that no one is misunderstood or misquoted. Canvass in this discussion, is referring to a Hemp material, not a cotton canvas that you may be thinking of. You can google a definition if you'd like. The ironic thing, is that RH just happens to be selling a proper hemp canvas that is pretty heavy and would be GREAT for this application. Greg PS Greg is not on the payroll of RH, he just acts like it sometimes. Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Jim Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 PSGreg is not on the payroll of RH, he just acts like it sometimes. Sometimes? My occupational hazard bein' my occupation's just not around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Only sometimes, Jim. Have you read the other forum? Greg and I go at it tooth and claw sometimes too. Of course it could be that he just likes getting beaten up by a girl! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Beaten up? thats harsh... I guess you did it again! Despite whatever differences we may have from time to time, I gotta call em like I see em' If anyone else has a link to a site where you can buy welsh red cotton (wool), Grey Kersey (Twill, napped wool) or Ticking/Ticken (twill, tight weave linen) that you can order, today, with a credit card/paypal, I will gladly join the amen chorus and sing their praises too. I just hope she doesn't run out before I can order! Greg Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Exaggeration adds to my hard-assed image, Greg! And whatever differences we have are never personal. But don't worry -- I won't run out of any of the things you mention. Some times of year it might take me longer to get them than others, but cottoned wool, kersey and ticken are now a permanent part of our offerings. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted January 11, 2007 Author Share Posted January 11, 2007 When did cotton canvas as we know today come into use? What is the difference between today's canvas and the hemp canvas from history other than the fact one is cotton and one is hemp? I guess what I am asking is what is the diffence in the look of the weaves? Please pardon my questions, as I am by no means a historian on fabrics, but I am interested... "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Hi Midnight, I don't mean to answer a question in an obtuse fashion, but there are as many differences within the realm of "canvas" as there are within the realm of "wool". In other words, there are lots of fabrics that are called canvas. They are usually a plain weave, but their weight can vary widely. Most modern canvas is 100% cotton. Period canvas is also greatly varied -- weave, weight, even content can vary from flax to hemp. Sailcloth I've seen has pair warp threads and single wefts. But I've also seen modern canvas with that combo. So it's very hard to say how modern canvas is different from period canvas... Can you find a modern canvas that is exactly like a period canvas except in fibre content? I'm sure you can. But {shameless plug alert} why do it when you can buy period-appropriate canvas? Oops, almost forgot the other question -- when did modern canvas come into use. I don't know precisely because I stop caring about textiles before it happens. But generally all those fabrics that we use today that are cotton but used to be something else (Osnaburg, coutil, flannel...), the changeover happened in the 19th century. So I'm taking a wild stab in the dark to say that cotton canvas came about in the 19th century too. But it could be later. I just know it wasn't earlier because they were still using linen and hemp for sails in the early 1800s. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Period canvas is also greatly varied -- weave, weight, even content can vary from flax to hemp. Sailcloth I've seen has pair warp threads and single wefts. But I've also seen modern canvas with that combo. I sometimes get my fabric terms messed up... But if period sailcloth (or the example there of Kass cited) essentially 2/1 twill made from hemp or linen? Again, not I'm a fabric expert , but isn't most common modern canvas found in most fabric stores (also called Duck cloth) a 2/1 twill? If my above two statements are anywhere close to being on track... Outside of the composition of the fibres, wouldn't period canvas be similar to modern canvas?... once you start talking about close examination things would get a bit different... I can just about always tell linen fibres from cotton fibres... The feel of two fabrics with the same weave made from the two materials are also noticeable to me, and there is generally a slight but noticable difference in the way the fabrics hang or drape. Whether the same can be said for the difference between cotton and hemp (or linen and hemp) or not is beyond me as I have almost no experience with hemp fabrics.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Hi Michael, The sailcloth isn't a 2/1 twill. It's got twinned warps. They are pressed together and the weft goes over them as if they are the same thread, creating a plain weave with two warps for every one weft. Not over two warps, under one warp (and so on), like a twill. But props for knowing what a 2/1 twill is! The canvases I have seen are all plain weave, not twills. Twill canvases are typically called something else -- most notably ticken/ticking or coutil. Again, I can't say that the only difference between period canvas and modern canvas is the substitution of cotton for hemp or linen. There are many fabrics classified as "canvas" and I'd hate to imply that modern cotton canvas was the same if it wasn't. I can only say that the 18oz hemp canvas I carry matches the canvas of the surviving sail of the HMS Victory in weave and density. The Victory sail, however, is linen. To your assessment of the difference in look and feel of cotton versus linen, I can tell the difference from look and feel too, and one really can't take the place of the other one well, as you say, Michael. They are just too different. Hemp, on the other hand, is indistinguishable from linen without a microscope or chemical tests. So if you were comparing the same weight and weave hemp and flax linen fabrics, you would swear they were identical. :) Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Thanks once again Kass for helping me learn yet another couple of facts about fabrics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted January 12, 2007 Author Share Posted January 12, 2007 Comparing the hemp canvas photos to a swatch of modern cotton canvas, I don't see a big enough difference in the look of the weaves for this to matter that much to me. I suppose to a trained eye such as Kass', it would be discernible, but to the "average joe", I doubt it. Yes, I know they didn't use cotton canvas, but truthfully, although I consider myself a mostly authentic reenactor, I am not so nit-picky that it's that important to me. If it looks as it should, then it works for me, and raising a family on a shoestring budget as I am compelled to do, I cannot justify paying high prices for something that is that trivial (at least to me) if I can make something myself or substitute for something that is not discernible from 10 feet away. I know there are many that will disagree with my point of view, and I truly respect the people who do their utmost to stay 100% authentic, but for myself, I cannot always afford to do so. It's either that, or I won't get to play at all. While I am a "Hollywood" pirate by no means, my clothing may not always be hand stitched or made of fabric that they would have used in history, so I use "the next best thing" that I can make myself or afford with my meager funds. But to the public's eyes, and even other reenactors, my kit and clothing will appear no different than theirs in the long run, unless inspected very closely (as in actually holding it and examining it closely), and I do not intend to let the public touch me or approach me that closely... :angry: "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Captain Midnight, That is almost the same arguement I use to justify using cotton instead of linen for some of my stuff..... Linen wrinkles a little differently than cotton, but unless someone comes up real close, they can't tell the difference..... BUT... You will know it is wrong, and then want to re-make it in the proper fabric... I'm in the process of making all new clothing... I could have saved myself some time, if I made it outta linen first... but then I wouldn't have had anything to wear, I can also use the cotton garmet to make any changes when I make the linen (or wool, or hemp) item. No one can really tell the fabric content, and no one will get close enough to see if everything is hand finished.... But you will know, and isn't that the only person that really matters anyway.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Midnight, No need to fret. Your choices are you own! I know a ton of very authentic reenactors who wear cotton canvas for a number of different reasons -- budget, lack of availability, lack on interest in the intricacies of fibre content. I just sell the stuff. I certainly don't think you're daft for making the decision not to buy it! :angry: Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 She's currently making a little voodoo doll of you... but she doesn't think you're daft Seriously though. Having the correct fibre can sometimes be an issue from well over 10 feet away, and sometimes not be an issue even close up. Depends on the fabric and the garment in question. Now, I've not handled Kass's hemp canvas so I can't really comment directly, but I have handled a lot of other canvas of different sorts. The linen canvas that I managed to get (I got about four yards - all I could - and I hoarded it until I gave up on finding anything more exciting than slops to make from it) was very different in feel and close-up-look to the cotton canvas that's available. The way it hangs and the way the material reacted to movement was very different, but unless you were looking for it was probably not noticeable. BUT it was also a very different weight to all the cotton canvas that I've used, so that might account for it. If you're going to go for cotton canvas then my best advice (unsolicited) would be to avoid buying modern duck from a fabric store. I don't know what it is about it, but it just never looks right or feels right. It doesn't matter how dirty it gets, how worn, it just always looks like modern duck. Every time I forget how much it infuriates me and make the mistake of buying some I always end up tarring it because it's the only way I can hide the fact that it's modern duck. The best thing to do is to try to find some old canvas. I've cut up goodness knows how many irreparably damaged tents and sails to make slops and trousers and the like, and the difference is very noticeable. Plus it's cheaper, sometimes free - I recently got given the walls of an old marquee to which the top section had been lost... they became a couple of tarps and two new sets of sails for me boat. FWIW, I reckon this is by far the best way of using modern canvas for period kit. ...unless there happens to be a source of hemp canvas which you can avail yourself of... Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted January 12, 2007 Author Share Posted January 12, 2007 Midnight,No need to fret. Your choices are you own! I know a ton of very authentic reenactors who wear cotton canvas for a number of different reasons -- budget, lack of availability, lack on interest in the intricacies of fibre content. I just sell the stuff. I certainly don't think you're daft for making the decision not to buy it! Kass, My friend, please don't think from my previous post that I intended it as a jab to you, for truly I didn't. I wouldn't do that for anything in the world! I just meant that I can't afford them sometimes. I think your products are wonderful and well worth the prices. If I were better off financially, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all, as all of my kit would be 100% accurate. "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Oh Midnight, I never take the decision not to buy from me personally! I know there was no jab in anything you said. I just wanted to post to tell you I support your decision. Besides, I'll just bleed Foxe dry and that will be enough to make up for it! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumba Rue Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Well look at this way, you could use the canvas coat as a tent when needed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted January 15, 2007 Author Share Posted January 15, 2007 Thanks Kass! "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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